Industrial vs. Craft

[Raptorman49]

Dan,
The teamsters have succeeded in getting you to think there will not be enough cards for either AMFA or teamsters to file with the NMB. That is their sole purpose being at AA to begin with! Where were they when the AMP drive was going on? The twu did not fear a craft, democratic union created by their own membership but they are afraid of a craft, democratic union called AMFA that their membership want?

Ok ken I will try to address all your questions as I see it, the Teamsters had nothing to do with me thinking AMFA can't get enough cards to file, that thinking is prevailant at the Tulsa base & has been every since we didn't get to an Election back in 2003 & now AMFA as you know has had some setbacks, AMFA is popular in the Line stations but not so much in Tulsa, Teamsters are popular in Tulsa but not so much at the Line stations, that division makes it very difficult for either competing Union to get enough cards

AMTs are on the same page in wanting the twu removed finally! But the teamsters are here to try and muddy the water. My analogy of switching socks from one foot to the other is dead on in switching from the twu to the teamsters. Why is the teamsters slinging mud and half truths at AMFA but are quite about the twu?

Yes I think most AMTs are wanting to remove the TWU because of the Jobs for radical concessions program they have during this Bankruptcy, I do not believe that the TWU & Teamsters are exactly the same just because they are both Industrial Unions anymore than I believe that AMP & AMFA are exactly the same because they are both craft Unions, All Unions have some differences & those differences matter, my main concern isn't so much with the International level but making sure here in Tulsa we have all Mechanics in our Leadership here at the Local Level, I haven't heard much mud slinging from any of the three Unions "YET" everything so far has just been verbal not in Litature but from what i'm hearing that trend is getting ready to change. ( believe it or not the all three groups have slung some mud at each other even Teamsters against TWU & TWU against Teamsters )

You say that you are looking at possibly retiring soon. If that works for you I am truly happy for you. I have never slandered you. I consider you a friend. But if you are going to retire soon then don't you feel you, and I, and everyone here at AA owe it to those who come in behind us to have a craft, democratic union?

I consider you to be a friend too Ken & I appreciate you not slandering me, I don't slander anyone regardless of their Opinion because it is counter productive to anyone's cause to do so & really quite pointless, People see Organizers as Represenatives of their cause, When an Organizer slanders people others see that cause as "Bad" and want nothing to do with it, that is the danger of slandering people when you don't share their opinion, People who do that are damaging their own cause & sometimes that damage can be quite significant, as far as oweing anything to anyone .... sorry no I don't feel I owe anyone anything we are all trying to survive right now with Aviation going the direction it is going & were losing the battle, Unfortunately I believe that trend is going to continue regardless of what Union we have, The companies are getting more powerful everyday & the Government is against Labor too, Unions still only have one Weapon the strike & Companies have figured out how to beat that on the rare occasion that the Government allows a Airline to strike, I just want to try and get out in one piece (Meaning try to get a contract with decent enough money that I can retire & bail out before it all collapses) I'm not big on Unions in General because I believe they are ALL corrupt & I know that like many people I am going to have a problem with any Union we get, there is a reason why Members keep throwing their Unions out, their getting sick & tired of their "BS" I don't believe that AMFA is a Panecea like some people do, but it probably would be better for Mechanics "IF" they can get enough cards, that's the big question, I'm definitely not the only person in Tulsa that thinks that is going to be "extremely" tough

If you don't want to post on this board that is your choice. But think about the harm having the teamsters will do to our craft. they will continue the same harm as the twu. It's time to change our socks. LOL!

Ken I admire your fighting spirit but the A&P craft as a good job is going away regardless of what we do, Companies & the Government stacked against us are just to powerful, it's just a matter of time, I'm trying to change socks, I think the Teamsters is also a change as do many other Airline Mechanics, many Airline Mechanics are changing Unions, some are even changing from AMFA to something else as you know, as I said not everyone believes AMFA is a Panecea for Mechanics.

Sign an AMFA card and get the guys in your shop to sign an AMFA card. The teamsters went to JFK and got pointed to the door. And in other stations too. They haven't even shown their faces in SAN.

I signed both cards on the first day of their Drives, I haven't refused to sign a competing Union's card yet, A few guys in my shop have signed AMFA cards but not many, as I said AMFA is weak in Tulsa, I'm pretty busy these days just trying to convince Tulsa Mechanics not to accept a really bad contract because that is what is going to affect me the most, don't have time to try and talk someone into signing a card for a Union they don't want, wouldn't do any good anyway, Yes I know Teamsters are not popular on the Line Stations, basically Teamsters are focusing on Tulsa first where their strong & AMFA is focusing on the Line stations first where their strong, I'm just going to let these cards drives play out & hopefully one of the Competing Unions will get enough Cards,

AMFA is the best choice for our craft and class at AA.

I agree but getting cards in Tulsa is going to be very tough for AMFA & from what i'm seeing the AMFA organizers in Tulsa aren't nearly as motivated as the ones who were doing the drive back in 2003, you should come to the July 14th Meeting & help Don motivate them if you want AMFA to win .... they need lots of motivation, I would also suggest they look like Organizers by wearing AMFA shirts, buttons or something so Mechanics will know their an Organizer so they can ask for a card, I haven't seen anyone that I would instantly know he was an AMFA Organizer just by looking at him & that's not being a good Organizer in my Opinion, You can easily tell who the Teamster Organizers are.

 

[Raptorman49]

So to be clear if the majority of people in M&R decided AMFA was the way to go you would not want to be union. wel I guess that would make you a Anti-Union Socialist by todays political standards.

By the way I really cannot stand the TWU but I certainly do not want to go non-union!

Don

I for one would have no problem with being non Union, from what I'm hearing their are many people who are sick of Unions because of all the corruption & crap they pull & that goes for ALL the Unions, their is a reason why Members are changing Unions so often lately, they just can't find one that they can tolerate, their are Pro's & Con's to being in a Union but the great contracts that Unions promise everyone are not happening like they use too so now we pay dues & get little in return, Delta has better pay & Benefits than AA & they have always been non Union & from what i'm hearing the Mechanics there are not trying to get one, I doubt AA will ever be non Union but it wouldn't break my heart if it were to happen, I'm sure the Union Lovers won't like this post but that's ok ...... we can respectively agree to disagree.
If I were an Airline Pilot I might be more inclined to want a Union because they are more educated & tend to make much better decisions as a collective than the less educated Union Members, the members in the TWU aren't making very good decisions as a collective in my opinion & it scares the hell out of me.

 

[enough already]

Craptor or Tynkerbell said:
"Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish....."

It always cracks me up when an A&P thinks that a lowly unskilled weldor could not possibly do their job. I know of numerous "unskilled welders" that were bumped out to the hangars and fell right in without missing a beat. One of which was training upgrade A&P's how to do their job. So just shut up and show some humility....

 

[Raptorman49]

Craptor or Tynkerbell said:
"Some of the many things that for the life of me I can't get past is for one a welder that is one of the most true supporters of a Craft that is in support of A&P Mechanics working on aircraft (that is my take anyway) and having the nerve to call anyone unskilled. Not taking anything away from him he may be the best welder/CC in the world, it just makes no sense to me. What do you know about the craft of fixing a bird on drop in or ripping one down to a state that would make the general public cringe and helping put it all back together and watching it hit the sky again proud of what you helped accomplish....."

It always cracks me up when an A&P thinks that a lowly unskilled weldor could not possibly do their job. I know of numerous "unskilled welders" that were bumped out to the hangars and fell right in without missing a beat. One of which was training upgrade A&P's how to do their job. So just shut up and show some humility....

I know that anyone can do any job with a little training unless their not to bright that's just common sense, the key word is Training, Welders are not trained to fix Airplanes until they are trained, A&P Mechanics are not trained to weld until they are trained ..... its all about training the more you have the more skilled you are.

 

[Raptorman49]

A really good article about our last contract offer where some Mechanics were Interviewed
I heard one of the Mechanics was counseled by his supervisor that Employee's are not suppose to give Interviews to the press, Actually printed up the rule from Jetnet & gave it to him, Like I said one has to be very careful when talking about the company where comments can be proven, so Unfortunately alias on here are necessary to be safe but let's keep it professional.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=45&articleid=20120517_45_E1_CUTLIN448571&allcom=1&r=4743

 

[700UW]

Ask and answer this, has AMFA been immune to concessions at the carriers where they represent who's airline was in financial difficulties?

The answer no.

 

[Raptorman49]

Ask and answer this, has AMFA been immune to concessions at the carriers where they represent who's airline was in financial difficulties?

The answer no.

No Union is immune, what really bothers me about the TWU is being with 6 other unskilled work groups & being able to have non Mechanic officers, most of local 514 officers are not even Mechanics & our President is a Fleet service clerk, it would be nice if the Mechanics switched to a Union where they are the only group in that Union at AA so when we negotiated contracts at least we would all be closer to the same page.

 

[Raptorman49]

We all know that the people that come to this American Forum group are either organizers or at least very Zealous Individuals, It's not like the masses are ever going to see any of this so when you think about it nothing we post on this Board is really going to matter much, When you think about it that way there is no reason to take someone's opinion on an Issue personal & insult them, Its just a place for over zealous types to express their Idea's & their thoughts, anyone thinking that their post's here is going to make any kind of a difference on anyone's cause is delusional ..... Trust me it's not going to happen, the Union Masses couldn't care less what us Zealulites think about how things should be.

 

[AC Tynker]

Craptor or Tynkerbell said:

It always cracks me up when an A&P thinks that a lowly unskilled weldor could not possibly do their job. I know of numerous "unskilled welders" that were bumped out to the hangars and fell right in without missing a beat. One of which was training upgrade A&P's how to do their job. So just shut up and show some humility....

Perfect example of the point I was trying get across in part with what I typed.

Just a little insight, I worked with several welders that were hit by the RIF and came to the hangar. Never would I say anything negative toward them or any other welder for that matter as I didn't in my post. Maybe you need to reread it or don't, doesn't really matter to me but you missed the point totally as many do in most of these threads and as Raptorman49 and a few others have tried to give thier OPINION on is try to be Proffesional and Respectable. That tactic works alot better and people are more receptive to what you have to say or type. Truthfully I could care less what Union anyone supports on here because everyone has an Opinion or Reason so you won't get any grief from me even if you wanted Napster as your Union (little humor sorry). So as they say "Keep On Keepin On".

 

[Raptorman49]

Perfect example of the point I was trying get across in part with what I typed.

Just a little insight, I worked with several welders that were hit by the RIF and came to the hangar. Never would I say anything negative toward them or any other welder for that matter as I didn't in my post. Maybe you need to reread it or don't, doesn't really matter to me but you missed the point totally as many do in most of these threads and as Raptorman49 and a few others have tried to give thier OPINION on is try to be Proffesional and Respectable. That tactic works alot better and people are more receptive to what you have to say or type. Truthfully I could care less what Union anyone supports on here because everyone has an Opinion or Reason so you won't get any grief from me even if you wanted Napster as your Union (little humor sorry). So as they say "Keep On Keepin On".

Well said AC Tynker once a person starts insulting someone their wasting their time posting anything because the person their Insulting loses all respect for the Insulter, generally people stoop to Insults when their angry or Frustrated that they can't manipulate someone into thinking like they do. I don't get angry when people don't have the same opinion as me, hell I don't want everyone to have the same opinion as me, if we all thought alike the world would be a very dull place.

 

[whoop whoop]

No Union is immune, what really bothers me about the TWU is being with 6 other unskilled work groups & being able to have non Mechanic officers, most of local 514 officers are not even Mechanics & our President is a Fleet service clerk, it would be nice if the Mechanics switched to a Union where they are the only group in that Union at AA so when we negotiated contracts at least we would all be closer to the same page.

You do know the teamsters aren't just A&P mechanics don't you? You do know the lead negotiator and a lot of buisness agents for the new UAL are NOT even in the airline industry. You do know almost all local presidents are NOT in the airline industry let alone mechanics.

Everything you say you like in a union, the teamsters are NOT. I am puzzled of why you are pushing them???

 

[Raptorman49]

You do know the teamsters aren't just A&P mechanics don't you? You do know the lead negotiator and a lot of buisness agents for the new UAL are NOT even in the airline industry. You do know almost all local presidents are NOT in the airline industry let alone mechanics.

Everything you say you like in a union, the teamsters are NOT. I am puzzled of why you are pushing them???

Yes I know the Teamster Union is an Industrial Union, don't know anything about the Negotiators, If we get the Teamsters there would have to be an Election for Local officers, as for why I'm pushing them it's because I don't like the TWU & I want someone who can beat them, If you want AMFA to win then you need to find some "VERY" motivated Organizers in Tulsa because in my opinion they are the underdog in this race behind both Teamsters & the TWU, I'm not seeing any "VERY"
motivated Organizers so far, In 2003 we barely got enough cards because we had a lot of very motivated Organizers who busted their ass for 10 months getting cards & AMFA was at the top of their game with several Airlines, things are very different today with AMFA & Organizer numbers & motivation, if I were to see some very motivated Organizers in Tulsa I might change my mind as to whether I thought AMFA had a chance of getting enough cards, I'm being told that will change, I will be keeping a lookout to see if in fact that is the case, you can't get to an Election by being a passive lazy a$$ organizer .... It won't work, Bottom line it doesn't matter who the best Union for Mechanics is unless you can get to an Election.
I would have no problem with supporting AMFA if I were to see signs that they even have a chance of getting to an Election ..... SHOW ME IT CAN BE DONE & I'M WITH YOU

Whoop I want to see AMFA organizers wearing their shirts, out hustling up cards everywhere I go at the base like I see with the Teamsters, that's my definition of a motivated Organizer, instead of trying to motivate me you need to start motivating your Organizers Man cause their just not cutting it.

 

[Buck]

Raptorman even everything you have posted , as one who would like to see the mechanics represented by AMFA, I for one would enjoy your participation in collecting election cards for mechanics for AMFA.

 

[Raptorman49]

Raptorman even everything you have posted , as one who would like to see the mechanics represented by AMFA, I for one would enjoy your participation in collecting election cards for mechanics for AMFA.

Well Buck I have been actually collecting AMFA cards not many only about 5 or 6 while I was collecting Teamster cards almost a 100 of them, I have been taking them to an AMFA organizer in the cam building named Ed, Dave knows him & i'm sure can verify that, I'm getting to lazy to work my ass off for any cause anymore & the 2003 AMFA drive was very costly to me in several ways but if the Tulsa AMFA organizers get waaaay more motivated then AMFA just might have a chance, that is really the biggest determination to whether a Union can get enough cards, enough motivation can overcome any Obstacles.
I will be looking for that Obstacle motivation from Tulsa AMFA organizers, I'm doubtful that I will see it though.

 

[whoop whoop]

http://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=250352

I wonder why the mighty teamsters did not try to organize the SWA mechanics? I mean they are so much stronger and powerful and richer than AMFA. It would seem like a no brainer.