Industrial vs. Craft

[Anomaly]

Thread is industrial versus craft. IBT is industrial and I still prefer the TWU.

Your good Overspeed. I appreciate and respect any member who can stand up for the Union he belongs to.

 

[Anomaly]

Overspeed is wrong!! AMFA is not running extended contracts from the ibt. AMFA has already had sec 6 nego and a contract from such. Matter fact it has happend twice. Get your facts straight overspeed.

But didn't you also extend? or was that just the AMFA mechanics at Alaska?

Notice how they are suspiciously silent with this conversation?

 

[Anomaly]

It is the TWU lawyers who came away with $36+, and why can't the TWU stop the outsourcing if the wages are below legacy average without the OSM's added in?

AFW staying open? Even in the merger scenario with LLC, AFW was to close. OK, open until the company changed it's mind and the TWU would do what, file a grievance?

Buck, in 4,475 posts, have you really contributed anything at all? Your one or two liners remind me of my Granddaughter trying to me involved in adult sports conversations.

Quiet now PLEASE, the grown ups are talking.

 

[TWU informer]

Buck, in 4,475 posts, have you really contributed anything at all? Your one or two liners remind me of my Granddaughter trying to me involved in adult sports conversations.

Quiet now PLEASE, the grown ups are talking.

Teamster Bully as
Master Manipulator

A skilled Teamster bully is usually an expert at manipulation. Through artful, indirect and devious methods, he influences and controls others. Like a clever politician, a manipulative union advocate bully keeps his desires hidden. Pretending to pursue the greater good, he adopts the mantra of “Teamsters first” with a fervency that inspires admiration and respect, and most people accept his claims of selfless pursuit of noble causes.
But underneath his self-righteous image lies the essence of a manipulator: someone who shrewdly and deviously attempts to control how you feel, think and behave.

Lack of respect for others

At the root of these manipulative behaviors is a pervasive lack of respect for others. A manipulative Teamsters bully holds himself in high esteem, but views others as deeply flawed. He is blind to the serious defects in his character and flaws of the Teamsters, but keenly aware of the slightest weakness or imperfection in others. He is convinced that most people are inferior to him.

Because he doesn’t respect you as an individual, he doesn’t respect your right to make your own choices. From his perspective, “live and let live” has no meaning; either you are with him or against him.

If you are with him, he attempts to thoroughly dominate you. And if you are against him, he feels no pangs of conscience as he undermines you using lies, falsehoods, and twisted facts.

It never occurs to him that you possess an equal right to pursue success and happiness.

 

[TWU informer]

I am an IBT member at UAL and I can tell you for a fact, that many of my co-workers are actually pleased with the representation of the IBT. Maybe you are only talking to a certain group of people?

The Teamster failure at UAL? WE HAVE A NEW CONTRACT POST BANKRUPTCY ! We have reclaimed many of our lost wages and benefits but not all. We go back into negotiations in the next few months to hopefully get what's left, AND THEN MOVE FORWARD. I put that in bold because it is important to realize that no other work group at UAL has even come close to the gains we Mechanics have gotten under the Teamsters. NOT EVEN THE PILOTS. No disrespect to ALPA, but they are usually the ones who lead off and settle first. NOT THIS TIME.

You find me one mechanic who did not apreciate his $11, 500 dollar signing bonus the first of the year. Find me one who cant' use the nearly $5.00 an hour raise. The restoration of double time. Holiday Moves. Day Trades. Job Security, and many more benefits under this new Teamster negotiated contract.

We have more to go, but at least we are on the right track. Whoever you are talking to is taking the money, and riding his tears to the bank.

Funny thing is that early you posted that after three decades the profession has "gotten worse", but now you paint a different picture.

When you are attacking the corporations the world and the profession suck.

When are defending the teamsters the world and the profession and doing just great and getting better.

Which side or version of your ass speak should we believe?

 

[Flying low]

Why don't you ask the SWA mechanics how many lay offs they have had to endure?????

My memory isn't quite that good anymore, but I can't remember the last time SWA had a layoff.

 

[TWU informer]

Teamster Bully as
Master Manipulator

AKA Anomaly

A skilled Teamster bully is usually an expert at manipulation. Through artful, indirect and devious methods, he influences and controls others. Like a clever politician, a manipulative union advocate bully keeps his desires hidden. Pretending to pursue the greater good, he adopts the mantra of “Teamsters first” with a fervency that inspires admiration and respect, and most people accept his claims of selfless pursuit of noble causes.
But underneath his self-righteous image lies the essence of a manipulator: someone who shrewdly and deviously attempts to control how you feel, think and behave.

Lack of respect for others

At the root of these manipulative behaviors is a pervasive lack of respect for others. A manipulative Teamsters bully holds himself in high esteem, but views others as deeply flawed. He is blind to the serious defects in his character and flaws of the Teamsters, but keenly aware of the slightest weakness or imperfection in others. He is convinced that most people are inferior to him.

Because he doesn’t respect you as an individual, he doesn’t respect your right to make your own choices. From his perspective, “live and let live” has no meaning; either you are with him or against him.

If you are with him, he attempts to thoroughly dominate you. And if you are against him, he feels no pangs of conscience as he undermines you using lies, falsehoods, and twisted facts.

It never occurs to him that you possess an equal right to pursue success and happiness.

Master of deception


It is counterproductive for a manipulative Teamsters bully to be straightforward: no one would support him if he revealed his true character or identity. An effective Teamster manipulator must be a master of deception.
His repertoire includes hiding his true intentions, identity, and predatory nature, concealing information of potential value to others, misleading people on key issues, effectively using hearsay and innuendo, and otherwise obscuring the truth. He shrewdly uses these deceptions to sway others, always to his personal advantage, often to the detriment of his fellow workers in the profession.

 

[Vortilon]

That's not true Overspeed. With all due respect, AMFA has streamlined the process and crated value to the much, much smaller mechanic group. They do this at EVERU airline. After all when you cut your work force in half, like they did at Alaska under AMFA, don't you end up with a smaller but more dedicated work force worth more money? (Insert dripping sarcasm here)

Below is a note from Alaska Mechanics. I found it on the web by searching AMFA mechanics at Alaska Air

Not all of them are happy to be in in the union busting ASSociation.

Tuesday, November 25, 2008

It's true! There are Aircraft Mechanics that are disgruntled with their union at Alaska Airlines!

A posting on a random bulletin board in Alaska Airlines Seattle hangar attempts to respond to a Teamsters Q&A regarding the erosion of pay and benefits at AMFA represented airlines.

THE LIE: The notice dated November 17, 2008, says "In 2003, when the SWA Technicians voted out the Teamsters, their numbers were 1,233. Today the number of AMFA represented members is 1,952, a 58 percent increase in the best paying jobs in the industry."

The Reality: While it is true that there was in increase at Southwest Airlines (while they were enjoying a record number of profitable quarters), AMFA oversaw an overall reduction of Aircraft Technician jobs within the Airline industry. They saw massive layoffs at United, Alaska and Northwest. Worst of all, AMFA encouraged an ill-fated strike at Northwest Airlines, forcing represented mechanics onto the streets while replacing them with a non-union workforce.

THE LIE: "AMFA also represents Technicians at Mesaba Airlines and Horizon Airlines, Both of which continue to hire new Technicians"

The Reality: The Technicians at Horizon Airlines are so frustrated with AMFA that they are also attempting to replace them with the Teamsters. Mechanics at Horizon have said that AMFA doesn't even return their calls when trying to file grievances. Further, the AMFA-represented Mesaba Airlines, which used to be owned by Northwest Airlines, is now an asset of Delta Airlines (an ANTI-union airline) so it remains to be seen how long they will be represented by AMFA. AMFA doesn't even know what will happen to their represented Technicians at Northwest, though most of us can read the writing on the walls. AMFA is dead at the post-merger Delta.

THE LIE: Dueling graphs - one of lies here is that AMFA places United Airlines as a Teamsters represented airline, and while that is true, they don't tell you that it was AMFA that was the representative that negotiated those wages and benefits, failed to effectively protect protect its membership during the largest bankruptcy in history (at that time). AMFA failed to send a representative to hearings regarding the pension plans that United dumped on the U.S. Taxpayers.

THE LIE: "The anonymous committee would have you believe that AMFA has fallen behind at our carriers. The truth can be seen in the charts below."...

The Reality: The fact is that AMFA IS falling behind at their carriers. How else would you explain the numbers of jobs lost at Alaska Airlines? When AMFA took over from the IAMAW, there were 1300 Mechanic and related, now there are around 700. How would you explain that while AMFA has represented us at Alaska, our wage and benefit package remains stagnate, while the wage and benefit package for new-hire Technicians has actually gone down, effectively creating a hidden B-scale? How can AMFA explain that new-hire Technicians are not even offered participation in the pension plan given to senior Technicians?

There is no anonymous committee. There is a group of concerned Technicians through-out the Alaska Airlines system, getting together, talking to each other and working for the betterment of our craft and class. Those of you on the shop floors, the Line maintenance offices & Hangar bays know who we are. We are anonymous only to AMFA because the only time they spend ANY time on the property is when they are threatened with replacement.

The AMFA National Director flies through Seattle all of the time, rumour is that he even LIVES HERE, yet when was the last time you actually SAW him here? I have had Mechanics in Seattle ask who Louie Key is. It sounds to me like it is the AMFA National Director that is anonymous.

So nice to see the Sandusky twins having a dialogue. Overspeed & Anomaly - hey now, that's a pair to draw to. A couple industrial, catch all, union apologists - suffering from low self esteem. Take a hike losers!

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Psssst.... you work for UAL, not SWA. Quit stroking someone else's pole.

As for Horizon, I think they turned down AMFA 2 to 1. They too had enough. Thanks for playing.

You work for UAL too, so whose pole are you stroking?

As for Horizon, yes they lost the recent representational election...but one has to wonder what sort of job the ibt was doing/not doing to trigger a card drive inside their first 3 years on the property.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

That is the first thing you can think of? Seriously?

Why don't you ask the SWA mechanics how many lay offs they have had to endure?????

You work at a nice big cushy maintenance base, I do too, now, but that was after a few rounds of bumping through out the system. How many times do you think the SWA guys have had to do that?

Keep in mind, they were Teamsters long before they were AMFA, and they are still working off the Teamster negotiated contract.

They have never been through a Lay off like ours. Think it has something to do with their contract? Probably.

So how about that IBT negotiated pay raise next month YOUR union got for you? No other Union group in the company, OUR company, is even close to a contract, but somehow, those damn Teamsters were able to get YOU and I a raise. How bout that? We are now caught up with most that we lost during the bankruptcy, but still you ####.

These guys are facing what we went through 10 years ago. And you are still stuck on and pushing that same FAILED philosophy? As you collect on a raise?

Come on man??

Give a guy a break. It aint all about YOU.

Is that the first thing you can think of? Seriously?

The mechanics at SWA haven't had a layoff, period.

However, anyone who isn't trying to spin the teamsters snake oil sales pitch can see the reality is that it is the benefit of SWAs culture, NOT some provision of an ibt contract.

Case in point ... when was the last time ANYONE in ANY SKILL was laid off at SWA?

Nice try

As for our whopping 75 cent raise coming next month, that's a typical ibt attempt to spin the truth of the situation. How much did we lose in our agreement in the ibts cut-and-paste frenzy to turn our agreement into the CAL agreement?

"Caught up with most of what we lost in bankruptcy"? .... What are you smoking?

Pension? ESOP stock? ... still gone/no compensation

Wages .... STILL not back to pre-bankruptcy levels.... and BTW, I don't equate just getting back to wages I had over TEN YEARS AGO as a positive thing.

UAL had no problem settling with the ibt on a mediocre contract, you can try and spin that getting a contract first BS all you wish, you want to start making lists here on what we gave up for a substandard raise, and an inadequate signing bonus?

The ibt played the UAL membership...they throw a few bucks at the financially starved, and want to paint it as some sort of grand achievement.

Maybe we should go over some more of the OVERREACHING promises of the ibt to jog your memory.

I'm game.

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed is wrong!! AMFA is not running extended contracts from the ibt. AMFA has already had sec 6 nego and a contract from such. Matter fact it has happend twice. Get your facts straight overspeed.

And they extended the contract. I do have my facts straight. Entering in to section 6 and then extending the contract? That's a fight for jobs? Okay.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Is that the first thing you can think of? Seriously?

The mechanics at SWA haven't had a layoff, period.

However, anyone who isn't trying to spin the teamsters snake oil sales pitch can see the reality is that it is the benefit of SWAs culture, NOT some provision of an ibt contract.

Case in point ... when was the last time ANYONE in ANY SKILL was laid off at SWA?

Nice try

As for our whopping 75 cent raise coming next month, that's a typical ibt attempt to spin the truth of the situation. How much did we lose in our agreement in the ibts cut-and-paste frenzy to turn our agreement into the CAL agreement?

"Caught up with most of what we lost in bankruptcy"? .... What are you smoking?

Pension? ESOP stock? ... still gone/no compensation

Wages .... STILL not back to pre-bankruptcy levels.... and BTW, I don't equate just getting back to wages I had over TEN YEARS AGO as a positive thing.

UAL had no problem settling with the ibt on a mediocre contract, you can try and spin that getting a contract first BS all you wish, you want to start making lists here on what we gave up for a substandard raise, and an inadequate signing bonus?

The ibt played the UAL membership...they throw a few bucks at the financially starved, and want to paint it as some sort of grand achievement.

Maybe we should go over some more of the OVERREACHING promises of the ibt to jog your memory.

I'm game.

We have twu cheerleaders, we have ibt cheerleaders, and we have amfa cheerleaders - then we have people like you telling it how it is.

AMFA was a grassroots affair at American, the others are attempting to save their bacon.

I'm rather tired of them all.

 

[Buck]

Buck, in 4,475 posts, have you really contributed anything at all? Your one or two liners remind me of my Granddaughter trying to me involved in adult sports conversations.

Quiet now PLEASE, the grown ups are talking.

It may be a Industrial vs. Craft, but it is still a AA forum. Why are you even here? You are contributing nothing. I bring in facts related to AA and this issues facing our employees. Take your ball and go home.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Just curious, what was the failure at Horizon? I keep hearing that and I do not get it?

Do you mean the recent campaign and election by AMFA to decertify the Teamsters?

No that can't be it, because AMFA LOST.

Do you mean the lost c checks? The loss of those checks was announced RIGHT AFTER the Teamsters took over representation.

Do you mean the mass involuntary furloughs?

There were NONE.

Teamsters negotiated voluntary furloughs and early out packages of up to $40,000. lump sum. Those who took lay off were recalled within 6 months, AND KEPT THE MONEY. Some were called back after only around 30 days and still kept the lump sum pay put for the voluntary lay off. My very good buddy is a furloughed mechanic from UAL in PDX under AMFA and is now working as a mechanic for Horizon under the Teamsters. He paints a completely different picture.

Judging by the recent vote count at Horizon, 60% of the members who voted agreed. 79% of the work force voted. Look this up yourself. My gloves are off tonight.

So what exactly do you mean by " lets hear your take on the teamsters failure at Horizon."

I have some friends at Horizon who might wish to comment.

Yes, the FAILURE of the teamsters at Horizon.

Since the ibt took over, Horizon has lost over 30% of their mechanics.

BTW furloughs are furloughs, paying someone to go who was in most cases already going anyway doesn't change that. The ibt couldn't stop the layoffs at Horizon period.

You highlighted "RIGHT AFTER" the teamsters took over.....really?

ibt was certified in April of 2009 .... go ahead and remind us when Horizon outsourced their Heavy Maintenance?

Spin all you wish, the teamsters promised the world during the Horizon campaign...fresh off the UAL victory, the snake oil was flying, Now you want to try and say oh the outsourcing was announced "RIGHT AFTER" they got there? So what(not that its true)? You're the mighty mighty teamsters, why didn't you stop it? Horizon was in negotiations....the ibt has ALL THOSE RESOURCES, that on-hand LEGAL STAFF, answer the question...why didn't you stop it?

And while you're at it, explain to all the AMTs on this board, why after all the chest thumping you've done on the detriment of outsourcing, you are still here championing a "union" that crafted an LOA and AGREED IN WRITING TO ALLOW THE OUTSOURCING OF HEAVY MAINTENANCE and if that wasn't bad enough, the ibt AGREED IN WRITING to never speak against it in public!

Oh sure you'll promise the world to get cards signed.....then what? Whats going to be your excuse if you were to get in at American and can't stop the layoffs/outsourcing? "Sorry, its not our fault its the TWU contract"

Maybe you should also explain why the ibt squandered the perfect opportunity to flex that ibt muscle in defense of the mechanics. The PILOTS at Horizon are teamsters. Why didn't they stand for the mechanics, and show some of that - often mentioned/never seen - teamster solidarity?

And please, spare me the pilot photo ops with the AMTs, the ibt had a real chance to make a statement with the pilots standing with the mechanics and they wasted it......maybe it was because the pilots at the time had been without a contract for over 4 years.....yea teamster power there!

 

[Anomaly]

My memory isn't quite that good anymore, but I can't remember the last time SWA had a layoff.

I do not believe they have ever had one. They have been represented by the Teamsters longer than AMFA.