Industrial vs. Craft

[ThirdSeatHero]

How do you know the IBT isn't going to try to organize AS and WN? AMFA has done nothing for them since they left the IAM and AMFA respectively. AS outsourced even more work under AMFA and closed the OAK base as a result. Good job AMFA. Since WN went AMFA they have only gained one line of overhaul and increased outsourcing steadily. Yes WN AMTs do get paid the highest but was that AMFA that did all the work? No, it was the IBT and AMFA has since that time only extended the contract but gave more latitude to WN management to outsource to El Salvador without so much as a whimper of discontent. Where was the famous AMFA "fighting for the craft" mentality? Since 2000 WN has added 225 737s and now they will be adding FOURTH line of overhaul. BIG win there AMFA. Chalk one up for the craft union!

The AMFA track record is littered with the lost jobs and careers of 23,000 believers in the AMFA craft union promises. 90% of your members lost to outsourcing. Nice job AMFA.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

If you weren't paying attention, "if" the ibt was going to organize WN as you infer, then why didn't they?

Airtran AMTs were ibt represented, the merger afforded the teamster a foot in the door, if AMFA was truly the boogie man you all make them out to be the SWA mechs should've been screaming for ibt cards....but that didn't happen did it.

By all means if you want to be an ibt cheerleader have at it, just curious though...weren't you a big TWU fan just a short while ago? Do tell, why are you suddenly a born-again teamster?

Oh and since you think you're up on current events, please lets hear your take on the teamsters failure at Horizon.

This should good

 

[Buck]

Isn't WN added maintenance while AA is threatening to cut or as far AFW has cut? TWU has a poor record of getting legacy airline average wage based on docket #2726 of the AA bankruptcy, of $36+.

 

[lineguy43]

How do you know the IBT isn't going to try to organize AS and WN? AMFA has done nothing for them since they left the IAM and AMFA respectively. AS outsourced even more work under AMFA and closed the OAK base as a result. Good job AMFA. Since WN went AMFA they have only gained one line of overhaul and increased outsourcing steadily. Yes WN AMTs do get paid the highest but was that AMFA that did all the work? No, it was the IBT and AMFA has since that time only extended the contract but gave more latitude to WN management to outsource to El Salvador without so much as a whimper of discontent. Where was the famous AMFA "fighting for the craft" mentality? Since 2000 WN has added 225 737s and now they will be adding FOURTH line of overhaul. BIG win there AMFA. Chalk one up for the craft union!

The AMFA track record is littered with the lost jobs and careers of 23,000 believers in the AMFA craft union promises. 90% of your members lost to outsourcing. Nice job AMFA.

So you are thinking the IBT or any other industrial union has a better record? Not hardly. ..This question is for Anomoly why after the IAm then AMFA then IBt that your co workers have stated most that the IBt is the WORST of the bunch BAR NONE!.? I have not had anyone tell me the IBt was doing a good job for them and that includes UPS where they make the most and I do not credit IBt for it as much as I dont credit the TWu at UPS for the dispatchers wages. UPS pays those wages because they can and are willing to not because of anything those unions have done. Those two unions track records at any other carrier is nothing short of abysmal and thats what everyone looks at. Obviously you do when it comes to AMFA.

 

[Overspeed]

Thank you for illustrating my point.

If you weren't paying attention, "if" the ibt was going to organize WN as you infer, then why didn't they?

Airtran AMTs were ibt represented, the merger afforded the teamster a foot in the door, if AMFA was truly the boogie man you all make them out to be the SWA mechs should've been screaming for ibt cards....but that didn't happen did it.

By all means if you want to be an ibt cheerleader have at it, just curious though...weren't you a big TWU fan just a short while ago? Do tell, why are you suddenly a born-again teamster?

Oh and since you think you're up on current events, please lets hear your take on the teamsters failure at Horizon.

This should good

Thread is industrial versus craft. IBT is industrial and I still prefer the TWU.

 

[Overspeed]

So you are thinking the IBT or any other industrial union has a better record? Not hardly. ..This question is for Anomoly why after the IAm then AMFA then IBt that your co workers have stated most that the IBt is the WORST of the bunch BAR NONE!.? I have not had anyone tell me the IBt was doing a good job for them and that includes UPS where they make the most and I do not credit IBt for it as much as I dont credit the TWu at UPS for the dispatchers wages. UPS pays those wages because they can and are willing to not because of anything those unions have done. Those two unions track records at any other carrier is nothing short of abysmal and thats what everyone looks at. Obviously you do when it comes to AMFA.

And losing the jobs of 90% or 23,000 of close to 30,000 members is great? Okay. You can add.

How many jobs has the IBT lost to outsourcing at UPS?

AMFA lost the remaining UAL airframe overhaul jobs after they took over from the IAM. Yeah...that's another great showing.

AMFA lost the OAK overhaul base jobs or about half of the total membership without the threat of BK. Also negotiated a KILLER no strike interest based arbitration clause that neither the TWU or IBT has negotiated in to their contracts.

The MCTs at AA are the highest paid Tech Specs in the industry and still will be after abrogation. Nice job TWU!

Yep, that craft union AMFA rocks bro!

 

[Overspeed]

Isn't WN added maintenance while AA is threatening to cut or as far AFW has cut? TWU has a poor record of getting legacy airline average wage based on docket #2726 of the AA bankruptcy, of $36+.

Then you accept industry average on the other areas of the contract as well. Outsource close to 50%, no DB pension, and pay 20% of medical costs. Easy.

AFW is being closed now due to increased outsourcing through BK. If you remember the July 2010 deal had AFW staying open. And we would have had higher wages than all the other airlines except WN. BK was a threat and more money was on the table right? Vote no.

 

[lineguy43]

And losing the jobs of 90% or 23,000 of close to 30,000 members is great? Okay. You can add.

How many jobs has the IBT lost to outsourcing at UPS?

AMFA lost the remaining UAL airframe overhaul jobs after they took over from the IAM. Yeah...that's another great showing.

AMFA lost the OAK overhaul base jobs or about half of the total membership without the threat of BK. Also negotiated a KILLER no strike interest based arbitration clause that neither the TWU or IBT has negotiated in to their contracts.

The MCTs at AA are the highest paid Tech Specs in the industry and still will be after abrogation. Nice job TWU!

Yep, that craft union AMFA rocks bro!

I dont know what MCT's are and you better prove anyone at AA is the best paid in the industry especially in MX cuz I don't believe it. The only people the TWu have a record of good pay is dispatchers not AMT's

 

[Anomaly]

Thank you for illustrating my point.

If you weren't paying attention, "if" the ibt was going to organize WN as you infer, then why didn't they?

Airtran AMTs were ibt represented, the merger afforded the teamster a foot in the door, if AMFA was truly the boogie man you all make them out to be the SWA mechs should've been screaming for ibt cards....but that didn't happen did it.

By all means if you want to be an ibt cheerleader have at it, just curious though...weren't you a big TWU fan just a short while ago? Do tell, why are you suddenly a born-again teamster?

Oh and since you think you're up on current events, please lets hear your take on the teamsters failure at Horizon.

This should good

Psssst.... you work for UAL, not SWA. Quit stroking someone else's pole.

As for Horizon, I think they turned down AMFA 2 to 1. They too had enough. Thanks for playing.

 

[swamt]

Overspeed is wrong!! AMFA is not running extended contracts from the ibt. AMFA has already had sec 6 nego and a contract from such. Matter fact it has happend twice. Get your facts straight overspeed.

 

[Buck]

Then you accept industry average on the other areas of the contract as well. Outsource close to 50%, no DB pension, and pay 20% of medical costs. Easy.

AFW is being closed now due to increased outsourcing through BK. If you remember the July 2010 deal had AFW staying open. And we would have had higher wages than all the other airlines except WN. BK was a threat and more money was on the table right? Vote no.

It is the TWU lawyers who came away with $36+, and why can't the TWU stop the outsourcing if the wages are below legacy average without the OSM's added in?

AFW staying open? Even in the merger scenario with LLC, AFW was to close. OK, open until the company changed it's mind and the TWU would do what, file a grievance?

 

[Anomaly]

Funny you should mention SWA.

If I was an American AMT, one of the first questions I'd ask the incoming teamster mouthpieces is why...if the ibt is so grand, and the AMFA so bad, why then DIDN'T the SWA mechs go back to the "power" of the teamsters when they merged with Airtran?

Certainly after UAL & NWA the ibt should've been able to secure enough cards to trigger an election.

No?

Maybe its because after tossing the teamster losers in the first place, the SWA AMTs are wise to the ibts snake oil sales pitch, and sent your boys packing. Hardly a rousing endorsement.

Then theres the ibts dismal failure at Horizon.

If the "power" of 1.4 million members couldn't defend a regional carrier, what possible chance could they have against what may soon become ( with USAirways ) the worlds largest airline?

The ibt better be damn careful ... the AA website is already being spread around the UAL system. What do you think the UAL mechs are gonna do when they see the same misinformation and outright lies from 2007 & 2008 being spread at AA?

Perhaps I should be thanking you ... this little con-game you're trying to run on the AA AMTs may just hasten your departure from UAL.

This is gonna be fun to watch

That is the first thing you can think of? Seriously?

Why don't you ask the SWA mechanics how many lay offs they have had to endure?????

You work at a nice big cushy maintenance base, I do too, now, but that was after a few rounds of bumping through out the system. How many times do you think the SWA guys have had to do that?

Keep in mind, they were Teamsters long before they were AMFA, and they are still working off the Teamster negotiated contract.

They have never been through a Lay off like ours. Think it has something to do with their contract? Probably.

So how about that IBT negotiated pay raise next month YOUR union got for you? No other Union group in the company, OUR company, is even close to a contract, but somehow, those damn Teamsters were able to get YOU and I a raise. How bout that? We are now caught up with most that we lost during the bankruptcy, but still you ####.

These guys are facing what we went through 10 years ago. And you are still stuck on and pushing that same FAILED philosophy? As you collect on a raise?

Come on man??

Give a guy a break. It aint all about YOU.

 

[Anomaly]

How do you know the IBT isn't going to try to organize AS and WN? AMFA has done nothing for them since they left the IAM and AMFA respectively. AS outsourced even more work under AMFA and closed the OAK base as a result. Good job AMFA. Since WN went AMFA they have only gained one line of overhaul and increased outsourcing steadily. Yes WN AMTs do get paid the highest but was that AMFA that did all the work? No, it was the IBT and AMFA has since that time only extended the contract but gave more latitude to WN management to outsource to El Salvador without so much as a whimper of discontent. Where was the famous AMFA "fighting for the craft" mentality? Since 2000 WN has added 225 737s and now they will be adding FOURTH line of overhaul. BIG win there AMFA. Chalk one up for the craft union!

The AMFA track record is littered with the lost jobs and careers of 23,000 believers in the AMFA craft union promises. 90% of your members lost to outsourcing. Nice job AMFA.

That's not true Overspeed. With all due respect, AMFA has streamlined the process and crated value to the much, much smaller mechanic group. They do this at EVERU airline. After all when you cut your work force in half, like they did at Alaska under AMFA, don't you end up with a smaller but more dedicated work force worth more money? (Insert dripping sarcasm here)

Below is a note from Alaska Mechanics. I found it on the web by searching AMFA mechanics at Alaska Air

Not all of them are happy to be in in the union busting ASSociation.

Tuesday, November 25, 2008

It's true! There are Aircraft Mechanics that are disgruntled with their union at Alaska Airlines!

A posting on a random bulletin board in Alaska Airlines Seattle hangar attempts to respond to a Teamsters Q&A regarding the erosion of pay and benefits at AMFA represented airlines.

THE LIE: The notice dated November 17, 2008, says "In 2003, when the SWA Technicians voted out the Teamsters, their numbers were 1,233. Today the number of AMFA represented members is 1,952, a 58 percent increase in the best paying jobs in the industry."

The Reality: While it is true that there was in increase at Southwest Airlines (while they were enjoying a record number of profitable quarters), AMFA oversaw an overall reduction of Aircraft Technician jobs within the Airline industry. They saw massive layoffs at United, Alaska and Northwest. Worst of all, AMFA encouraged an ill-fated strike at Northwest Airlines, forcing represented mechanics onto the streets while replacing them with a non-union workforce.

THE LIE: "AMFA also represents Technicians at Mesaba Airlines and Horizon Airlines, Both of which continue to hire new Technicians"

The Reality: The Technicians at Horizon Airlines are so frustrated with AMFA that they are also attempting to replace them with the Teamsters. Mechanics at Horizon have said that AMFA doesn't even return their calls when trying to file grievances. Further, the AMFA-represented Mesaba Airlines, which used to be owned by Northwest Airlines, is now an asset of Delta Airlines (an ANTI-union airline) so it remains to be seen how long they will be represented by AMFA. AMFA doesn't even know what will happen to their represented Technicians at Northwest, though most of us can read the writing on the walls. AMFA is dead at the post-merger Delta.

THE LIE: Dueling graphs - one of lies here is that AMFA places United Airlines as a Teamsters represented airline, and while that is true, they don't tell you that it was AMFA that was the representative that negotiated those wages and benefits, failed to effectively protect protect its membership during the largest bankruptcy in history (at that time). AMFA failed to send a representative to hearings regarding the pension plans that United dumped on the U.S. Taxpayers.

THE LIE: "The anonymous committee would have you believe that AMFA has fallen behind at our carriers. The truth can be seen in the charts below."...

The Reality: The fact is that AMFA IS falling behind at their carriers. How else would you explain the numbers of jobs lost at Alaska Airlines? When AMFA took over from the IAMAW, there were 1300 Mechanic and related, now there are around 700. How would you explain that while AMFA has represented us at Alaska, our wage and benefit package remains stagnate, while the wage and benefit package for new-hire Technicians has actually gone down, effectively creating a hidden B-scale? How can AMFA explain that new-hire Technicians are not even offered participation in the pension plan given to senior Technicians?

There is no anonymous committee. There is a group of concerned Technicians through-out the Alaska Airlines system, getting together, talking to each other and working for the betterment of our craft and class. Those of you on the shop floors, the Line maintenance offices & Hangar bays know who we are. We are anonymous only to AMFA because the only time they spend ANY time on the property is when they are threatened with replacement.

The AMFA National Director flies through Seattle all of the time, rumour is that he even LIVES HERE, yet when was the last time you actually SAW him here? I have had Mechanics in Seattle ask who Louie Key is. It sounds to me like it is the AMFA National Director that is anonymous.

 

[Anomaly]

Isn't WN added maintenance while AA is threatening to cut or as far AFW has cut? TWU has a poor record of getting legacy airline average wage based on docket #2726 of the AA bankruptcy, of $36+.

NO.

Seriously, go back on their LM-2's. It is public information and you will have to look it up for yourself. While SWA's fleet size has grown substantially under AMFA, the size of their work force (ie mechanics) has relatively stayed the same. This does not include the added employees of merged airlines such as Air Tran.

By the way, You all spek little of Air Tran, but their contract under the Teamsters, provided for one of the highest salaries in the industry.Until recently, it was higher than both CO and UA's and is still above AA. Not bad for a small low cost airline.

Those pesky Teamsters. I tell ya....

 

[Anomaly]

Thank you for illustrating my point.

If you weren't paying attention, "if" the ibt was going to organize WN as you infer, then why didn't they?

Airtran AMTs were ibt represented, the merger afforded the teamster a foot in the door, if AMFA was truly the boogie man you all make them out to be the SWA mechs should've been screaming for ibt cards....but that didn't happen did it.

By all means if you want to be an ibt cheerleader have at it, just curious though...weren't you a big TWU fan just a short while ago? Do tell, why are you suddenly a born-again teamster?

Oh and since you think you're up on current events, please lets hear your take on the teamsters failure at Horizon.

This should good

Just curious, what was the failure at Horizon? I keep hearing that and I do not get it?

Do you mean the recent campaign and election by AMFA to decertify the Teamsters?

No that can't be it, because AMFA LOST.

Do you mean the lost c checks? The loss of those checks was announced RIGHT AFTER the Teamsters took over representation.

Do you mean the mass involuntary furloughs?

There were NONE.

Teamsters negotiated voluntary furloughs and early out packages of up to $40,000. lump sum. Those who took lay off were recalled within 6 months, AND KEPT THE MONEY. Some were called back after only around 30 days and still kept the lump sum pay put for the voluntary lay off. My very good buddy is a furloughed mechanic from UAL in PDX under AMFA and is now working as a mechanic for Horizon under the Teamsters. He paints a completely different picture.

Judging by the recent vote count at Horizon, 60% of the members who voted agreed. 79% of the work force voted. Look this up yourself. My gloves are off tonight.

So what exactly do you mean by " lets hear your take on the teamsters failure at Horizon."

I have some friends at Horizon who might wish to comment.

 

[Anomaly]

So you are thinking the IBT or any other industrial union has a better record? Not hardly. ..This question is for Anomoly why after the IAm then AMFA then IBt that your co workers have stated most that the IBt is the WORST of the bunch BAR NONE!.? I have not had anyone tell me the IBt was doing a good job for them and that includes UPS where they make the most and I do not credit IBt for it as much as I dont credit the TWu at UPS for the dispatchers wages. UPS pays those wages because they can and are willing to not because of anything those unions have done. Those two unions track records at any other carrier is nothing short of abysmal and thats what everyone looks at. Obviously you do when it comes to AMFA.

I am an IBT member at UAL and I can tell you for a fact, that many of my co-workers are actually pleased with the representation of the IBT. Maybe you are only talking to a certain group of people?

The Teamster failure at UAL? WE HAVE A NEW CONTRACT POST BANKRUPTCY ! We have reclaimed many of our lost wages and benefits but not all. We go back into negotiations in the next few months to hopefully get what's left, AND THEN MOVE FORWARD. I put that in bold because it is important to realize that no other work group at UAL has even come close to the gains we Mechanics have gotten under the Teamsters. NOT EVEN THE PILOTS. No disrespect to ALPA, but they are usually the ones who lead off and settle first. NOT THIS TIME.

You find me one mechanic who did not apreciate his $11, 500 dollar signing bonus the first of the year. Find me one who cant' use the nearly $5.00 an hour raise. The restoration of double time. Holiday Moves. Day Trades. Job Security, and many more benefits under this new Teamster negotiated contract.

We have more to go, but at least we are on the right track. Whoever you are talking to is taking the money, and riding his tears to the bank.