Industrial vs. Craft

[Anomaly]

Well I have a e-mail or two from some Cal guys who think it's B.S that you cannot vote.

No doubt they think it is BS. I do not know all of their concerns, but the most obvious is UAL has not hired off the street in years. Most of us have around 25-27 years of seniority. There are no AMT's with less than 20 years here at the largest UAL station. (none that I am aware of) A vote however, will not change that fact.

(disclaimer- I do not know the average seniority at my station or at UAL. The 25-27 number is a best guess based on the crew I belong to. Most, but not all of us are in this range. Some have been here even longer.)

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Now it is OK to state our opinion? Last thread when I was posting my opinion you answered with this comment;

"You are what I call a snibbler, an industrial union zealot that does not demand from your union what you cannot stand about another. I suspect your professional standards as a mechanic are just as likely suspect too".

I can't keep up with these changing rules of yours. I thought we had to back everything up with fact?

I am not here to divert attention, I would much rather bring attention to the group you support. I want people to realize their overreaching claims. It is all the "TRUTH" but what you fail to understand is sometimes people differ on the benefits of that truth.

AMFA is a CRAFT Union. That is the truth. With the challenges today, (and we have been over them too many times to repeat) I am of the OPINION, that I am better off in a larger Industrial Union. You express your support for one idea, and me for the other.

So to the rest of you; what's the big deal?

I'd like to take a shot at this.

I am not here to divert attention either, I would much rather bring attention to the group that you support. I want people to realize their overreaching claims. It is all the "TRUTH" but what you fail to understand is sometimes people differ on the benefits of that truth.

Truth and overreaching claims?

Would that be like the truth of some of the ibts "overreaching" claims?

We'll open the contract early...

We'll get you a double vesting pension...

We'll negotiate that pension outside section 6...

We wont change your contract without a vote of the membership...

For myself, The teamsters are an Industrial Union. That is the truth. With the challenges today, (and we have been over them too many times to repeat) I am of the OPINION, that I am better off in a union other than the ibt. You express your support for one idea, and me for the other.

Hmmmm...I guess that does work.

 

[aapitbull]

No doubt they think it is BS. I do not know all of their concerns, but the most obvious is UAL has not hired off the street in years. Most of us have around 25-27 years of seniority. There are no AMT's with less than 20 years here at the largest UAL station. (none that I am aware of) A vote however, will not change that fact.

(disclaimer- I do not know the average seniority at my station or at UAL. The 25-27 number is a best guess based on the crew I belong to. Most, but not all of us are in this range. Some have been here even longer.)

Well the way I read it their major concern is that they thought there was going to be negoiatitions and a vote as to what should be done and now they found out the decision will be made for them.

 

[Anomaly]

Well the way I read it their major concern is that they thought there was going to be negoiatitions and a vote as to what should be done and now they found out the decision will be made for them.

Well, from what I have been hearing, the Teamsters (and the members) are anxious to begin negotiations for our contract expiring in about 12 months (CO's expires in December). We can not move forward without resolution to our seniority issues.

Now before we get excited, there is one other very important issue I failed to mention before. Because of a law suite by several groups of employees years ago, the seniority structure of many work groups at UAL including the mechanics has been under court order called a consent decree.

This decree was entered on April 30. 1976 and has guided UAL's seniority ever since. Some years ago the IAM looked at getting out of it, and AMFA lawyers did the same. When Teamsters first came on property I heard they too were looking at getting us out of the decree, but I do not know how far that went. From what I understand, the seniority meeting for UA and CO contained a couple of independent lawyers who apparently doubt the ability to get out of the decree, even with this merger.

In the end, I think we will be stuck with the consent decree no matter what. My point, even if all CO and all UA mechanics voted to choose a different measure of seniority, I do not believe the courts would let us.

Yes. We all found out the decision was made for us. Unfortunately, the decision was made way back in 1976.

Yeah yeah, I know. You think I am lying and need proof.

Here ya go....

http://www.airlinemechanics.org/Final%20Amended%20Consent%20Decree.pdf

 

[DNTULSA]

Anumbnuts,

You got a cushy union job just finger dancing on this forum.

Why else would a United Airlines employee get on the AA forum and spew such copius amounts of garbage?

There ought to be a law against you coming around.

 

[aapitbull]

Well, from what I have been hearing, the Teamsters (and the members) are anxious to begin negotiations for our contract expiring in about 12 months (CO's expires in December). We can not move forward without resolution to our seniority issues.

Now before we get excited, there is one other very important issue I failed to mention before. Because of a law suite by several groups of employees years ago, the seniority structure of many work groups at UAL including the mechanics has been under court order called a consent decree.

This decree was entered on April 30. 1976 and has guided UAL's seniority ever since. Some years ago the IAM looked at getting out of it, and AMFA lawyers did the same. When Teamsters first came on property I heard they too were looking at getting us out of the decree, but I do not know how far that went. From what I understand, the seniority meeting for UA and CO contained a couple of independent lawyers who apparently doubt the ability to get out of the decree, even with this merger.

In the end, I think we will be stuck with the consent decree no matter what. My point, even if all CO and all UA mechanics voted to choose a different measure of seniority, I do not believe the courts would let us.

Yes. We all found out the decision was made for us. Unfortunately, the decision was made way back in 1976.

Yeah yeah, I know. You think I am lying and need proof.

Here ya go....

http://www.airlineme...sent Decree.pdf

I have a few e-mails about your decree also you are not the only UAL/CAL Mechanic giving advice about the Teamsters or a dozen other things that have to do with your situation. but unlike you I do not seek to interject my views into your business and will keep my opinions to myself.

 

[Anomaly]

Anumbnuts,

You got a cushy union job just finger dancing on this forum.

Why else would a United Airlines employee get on the AA forum and spew such copius amounts of garbage?

There ought to be a law against you coming around.

Actually there are laws against my kind of behavior. China and North Korea are two places that come to mind....

I am backing almost every statement with a link for all you doubters.

 

[Anomaly]

I have a few e-mails about your decree also you are not the only UAL/CAL Mechanic giving advice about the Teamsters or a dozen other things that have to do with your situation. but unlike you I do not seek to interject my views into your business and will keep my opinions to myself.

Unfortunately, the consent decree was the OPINION of the author, who happened to be a District Court Judge. Sometimes opinions are shared. Whether we like it or not. Much like mine.

You don't like my opinions, but you create threads like Industrial vs Craft on an open and free of charge Airline Forum.

Again, nobody has to pay me to get in to your AMFA heads. I would almost pay the TWU, IAM, or IBT to let me.

 

[Anomaly]

I do not think the Teamsters are kidding about an AA card drive and campaign.

http://www.teamster.org/aamx

 

[Anomaly]

I have a few e-mails about your decree also you are not the only UAL/CAL Mechanic giving advice about the Teamsters or a dozen other things that have to do with your situation. but unlike you I do not seek to interject my views into your business and will keep my opinions to myself.

You can ask these guys (sorry, I just found this site but it looks like it has been out for a while). The REAL IBT representatives are listed below along with their contact numbers.

http://www.teamster.org/content/teamsters-aa-maintenance

June 19, 2012
The Teamsters are the best maintenance and related representative in the airline industry and the best union for mechanics and related workers at American Airlines.
Our organizing campaign for American Airlines maintenance workers is about representing mechanics and related workers with the power and resources that only the Teamsters can bring.
Get the facts. Get involved.
Why the Teamsters Are The Right Choice For Us
Teamsters Q and A for American Airlines Mechanics
When: Monday, June 18
12:00 pm and 3:30 pm.
Tuesday, June 19
7:30 am
Where: Park Inn, Tulsa Airport
2201 North 77th East Ave.
Tulsa, OK 74115
918-835-9911
Come to these meetings and find out why the Teamsters are the best choice for American Airlines mechanics and related workers.
Panel:
Bob Fisher, International Representative Maintenance
Clacy Griswold, International Representative Maintenance
Chris Moore, International Representative Maintenance
Click here to download the flyer.
For additional information please contact Chris Moore at 202-409-6038 or Bob Fisher at 304-261-3379

 

[Vortilon]

Just what we need, more of the same. I was a Teamster at UPS for 4 years, and from personal experience - the Teamsters pretty much mailed in their representation. The organization is just to big, and out of touch. Anomaly is obviously in it for personal gain.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Well gentlemen prepare yourselves for the deluge.

Just a glimpse of the ibt dog & pony show you can expect

Weekly+ hand billing at the gates.

Phone surveys.

Strongly worded letters to your management that the teamsters will play up in an attempt to appear to be "already" fighting for you.

Free T-shirts-lanyards-stickers-buttons-etc etc.

Websites-videos

18 wheeler drive bys

signed pictures/photo ops with hoffa




Do one thing from the onset of this soon-to-be ibt circus ... demand a debate between the TWU & the ibt.

They staged one at UAL for the mechanics, and an other for the rampers

They actually had one against AMFA at Horizon.

They have NO excuse not to do it for you.


Don't let them try to play it off with an offer to debate AMFA.

They are raiding the TWU, have them sit up in front of your membership and both of them (TWU & ibt) and explain themselves.....and don't let them try to bring up AMFA in the debate. If they balk at this idea, which I'm betting they will ... then make the TWU debate AMFA.


However, this little circus plays out, just remember why you started the AMFA drive to begin with.

While I've just recently began posting with frequency in the AA threads I've been following your negotiations for sometime. The one message that has rang true from the start here, at least in the majority of posts I read, is the accountability issue. Understand, that no matter what the ibt may promise you, that is one thing that under the teamsters will NOT change. Yes, you will vote for the Intl President, and Yes, you will vote for your Local officers. What you will NOT vote for is those that are appointed to oversee the Airline Division, and those who administer your contract ie; your BAs. Your Chief and Shop stewards will be your only control - or lack thereof.

Good Luck Gentlemen.

 

[Anomaly]

Well gentlemen prepare yourselves for the deluge.

Just a glimpse of the ibt dog & pony show you can expect

Weekly+ hand billing at the gates.

Phone surveys.

Strongly worded letters to your management that the teamsters will play up in an attempt to appear to be "already" fighting for you.

Free T-shirts-lanyards-stickers-buttons-etc etc.

Websites-videos

18 wheeler drive bys

signed pictures/photo ops with hoffa




Do one thing from the onset of this soon-to-be ibt circus ... demand a debate between the TWU & the ibt.

They staged one at UAL for the mechanics, and an other for the rampers

They actually had one against AMFA at Horizon.

They have NO excuse not to do it for you.


Don't let them try to play it off with an offer to debate AMFA.

They are raiding the TWU, have them sit up in front of your membership and both of them (TWU & ibt) and explain themselves.....and don't let them try to bring up AMFA in the debate. If they balk at this idea, which I'm betting they will ... then make the TWU debate AMFA.


However, this little circus plays out, just remember why you started the AMFA drive to begin with.

While I've just recently began posting with frequency in the AA threads I've been following your negotiations for sometime. The one message that has rang true from the start here, at least in the majority of posts I read, is the accountability issue. Understand, that no matter what the ibt may promise you, that is one thing that under the teamsters will NOT change. Yes, you will vote for the Intl President, and Yes, you will vote for your Local officers. What you will NOT vote for is those that are appointed to oversee the Airline Division, and those who administer your contract ie; your BAs. Your Chief and Shop stewards will be your only control - or lack thereof.

Good Luck Gentlemen.

Good new TSH,

Job openings at SWA. Now is a chance to leave the Teamsters before it gets any worse for you. Better hurry though, because that next IBT negotiated pay raise is just around the corner.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Good new TSH,

Job openings at SWA. Now is a chance to leave the Teamsters before it gets any worse for you. Better hurry though, because that next IBT negotiated pay raise is just around the corner.

Funny you should mention SWA.

If I was an American AMT, one of the first questions I'd ask the incoming teamster mouthpieces is why...if the ibt is so grand, and the AMFA so bad, why then DIDN'T the SWA mechs go back to the "power" of the teamsters when they merged with Airtran?

Certainly after UAL & NWA the ibt should've been able to secure enough cards to trigger an election.

No?

Maybe its because after tossing the teamster losers in the first place, the SWA AMTs are wise to the ibts snake oil sales pitch, and sent your boys packing. Hardly a rousing endorsement.

Then theres the ibts dismal failure at Horizon.

If the "power" of 1.4 million members couldn't defend a regional carrier, what possible chance could they have against what may soon become ( with USAirways ) the worlds largest airline?

The ibt better be damn careful ... the AA website is already being spread around the UAL system. What do you think the UAL mechs are gonna do when they see the same misinformation and outright lies from 2007 & 2008 being spread at AA?

Perhaps I should be thanking you ... this little con-game you're trying to run on the AA AMTs may just hasten your departure from UAL.

This is gonna be fun to watch

 

[Overspeed]

Funny you should mention SWA.

If I was an American AMT, one of the first questions I'd ask the incoming teamster mouthpieces is why...if the ibt is so grand, and the AMFA so bad, why then DIDN'T the SWA mechs go back to the "power" of the teamsters when they merged with Airtran?

Certainly after UAL & NWA the ibt should've been able to secure enough cards to trigger an election.

No?

Maybe its because after tossing the teamster losers in the first place, the SWA AMTs are wise to the ibts snake oil sales pitch, and sent your boys packing. Hardly a rousing endorsement.

Then theres the ibts dismal failure at Horizon.

If the "power" of 1.4 million members couldn't defend a regional carrier, what possible chance could they have against what may soon become ( with USAirways ) the worlds largest airline?

The ibt better be damn careful ... the AA website is already being spread around the UAL system. What do you think the UAL mechs are gonna do when they see the same misinformation and outright lies from 2007 & 2008 being spread at AA?

Perhaps I should be thanking you ... this little con-game you're trying to run on the AA AMTs may just hasten your departure from UAL.

This is gonna be fun to watch

How do you know the IBT isn't going to try to organize AS and WN? AMFA has done nothing for them since they left the IAM and AMFA respectively. AS outsourced even more work under AMFA and closed the OAK base as a result. Good job AMFA. Since WN went AMFA they have only gained one line of overhaul and increased outsourcing steadily. Yes WN AMTs do get paid the highest but was that AMFA that did all the work? No, it was the IBT and AMFA has since that time only extended the contract but gave more latitude to WN management to outsource to El Salvador without so much as a whimper of discontent. Where was the famous AMFA "fighting for the craft" mentality? Since 2000 WN has added 225 737s and now they will be adding FOURTH line of overhaul. BIG win there AMFA. Chalk one up for the craft union!

The AMFA track record is littered with the lost jobs and careers of 23,000 believers in the AMFA craft union promises. 90% of your members lost to outsourcing. Nice job AMFA.