Industrial vs. Craft

[Anomaly]

I have never disagreed the MROs need to be organized.

I have simply pointed out the ridiculous nature of your position. You want to critique AMFA for NOT organizing MROs, and when faced with the fact that the teamsters, who you support, have done nothing to speak of in that regard, you try and deflect by saying that only AMFA calls itself a craft union.

The MRO threat is either real or it isn't, period.

The teamsters are just as guilty for their inactions as AMFA is.

Will AMFA ever make an attempt to organize them? I don't know, I'm no longer part of that union.

Will the teamsters ever make that attempt?

BS. " The MRO threat is either real or it isn't, period."

I hate it when people like you bury your heads in the sand. How can you deny there are other companies just begging for the contract that will take your job??

YES. The teamsters will make an attempt at the MRO's. I hear they have been talking about moving on that for months. I know they are serious about the MRO threat.

My very simple question again, to a long time AMFA supporter, Will AMFA EVER attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

Your attempt to fall back on the "How should I know, I work at UAL I'm a teamster" line is pitiful.

YOU KNOW THE ANSWER !!

Just say it !!

 

[TWU informer]

My very simple question again, to a long time AMFA supporter, Will AMFA EVER attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??
Just say it !!

YES

 

[TWU informer]

I could line up 100 union members to talk for hours bashing the TWU.

I could line up 100 union members to talk for hours bashing the IBT.

And IBT/TWU Alliance to could line up 100 union members to talk for hours bashing AMFA.

Negative politics is what this is called.

It creates nothing more than apathy.

Just look at what has happened to our National and State Politics for examples.

What we are discussing here is our future, and the future of the profession.

Apathy will kill both.

 

[Tex-Mech]

I could line up 100 union members to talk for hours bashing the TWU.

I could line up 100 union members to talk for hours bashing the IBT.

And IBT/TWU Alliance to could line up 100 union members to talk for hours bashing AMFA.

Negative politics is what this is called.

It creates nothing more than apathy.

Just look at what has happened to our National and State Politics for examples.

What we are discussing here is our future, and the future of the profession.

Apathy will kill both.

Excellent points, but in the case of abysmal--he gets paid very well by the reamsters to promote apathy. 😉

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

BS. " The MRO threat is either real or it isn't, period."

I hate it when people like you bury your heads in the sand. How can you deny there are other companies just begging for the contract that will take your job??

YES. The teamsters will make an attempt at the MRO's. I hear they have been talking about moving on that for months. I know they are serious about the MRO threat.

My very simple question again, to a long time AMFA supporter, Will AMFA EVER attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

Your attempt to fall back on the "How should I know, I work at UAL I'm a teamster" line is pitiful.

YOU KNOW THE ANSWER !!

Just say it !!

Thank you again, for yet another failed attempt at deflection.

You continue to cite the MRO threat and you critique AMFA for not organizing them. I never said the threat wasn't real, I pointed out your flagrant hypocrisy as you support the teamsters who have done nothing in the very same arena, yet try to make it a point of failure for AMFA simply because they identify themselves as a craft union.

Nice try.

 

[Flying low]

Will AMFA EVER attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

I'm going to say YES. Once the MRO's get their hands on the majority of AA's (the last hold out of keeping O/H inhouse) jets and start raising their prices. Then once the AMT's at these MRO's see the profits being made, they will be wanting better pay and benifits. I think we'll see AMFA, TWU, IBT all wanting to organize the MRO's.

 

[FWAAA]

I'm going to say YES. Once the MRO's get their hands on the majority of AA's (the last hold out of keeping O/H inhouse) jets and start raising their prices. Then once the AMT's at these MRO's see the profits being made, they will be wanting better pay and benifits. I think we'll see AMFA, TWU, IBT all wanting to organize the MRO's.

With airplanes being overhauled in HKG and PVG and PEK and SIN and SAL and MEX, organizing the domestic MROs won't make a difference, IMO.

Domestic MROs have no pricing power, with or without AA's business. Their ability to increase their prices will be tempered by the other 6.7 billion people on the planet who don't live in the USA. Doesn't take a large percentage of that 6.7 billion learning how to overhaul planes to yield a huge workforce. Aeroman just built three new bays at SAL and I'm sure they can build more.

 

[DNTULSA]

BS. " The MRO threat is either real or it isn't, period."

I hate it when people like you bury your heads in the sand. How can you deny there are other companies just begging for the contract that will take your job??

YES. The teamsters will make an attempt at the MRO's. I hear they have been talking about moving on that for months. I know they are serious about the MRO threat.

My very simple question again, to a long time AMFA supporter, Will AMFA EVER attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

Your attempt to fall back on the "How should I know, I work at UAL I'm a teamster" line is pitiful.

YOU KNOW THE ANSWER !!

Just say it !!

Amauseless,

You do go on, don't you?

As we say in Oklahoma, "Bless your heart!"

(in okie talk it means, boy, are you stupid!)

 

[FWAAA]

My very simple question again, to a long time AMFA supporter, Will AMFA EVER attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

Your attempt to fall back on the "How should I know, I work at UAL I'm a teamster" line is pitiful.

YOU KNOW THE ANSWER !!

Just say it !!

Whether or not AMFA ever attempts to organize domestic MROs is completely irrelevant to the issue that matters to AA's AMTs: the need to dump the worthless union and replace it with representation that is accountable to the membership, like AMFA.

As I pointed out above, foreign MROs prevent the domestic MROs from exercising any pricing power, so organizing them would be a complete waste of time and money. I can see the dues collection unions like TWU and IBT attempting to organize the domestic MROs, however, as the dues are the primary reward for those unions.

 

[xUT]

With airplanes being overhauled in HKG and PVG and PEK and SIN and SAL and MEX, organizing the domestic MROs won't make a difference, IMO.

Domestic MROs have no pricing power, with or without AA's business. Their ability to increase their prices will be tempered by the other 6.7 billion people on the planet who don't live in the USA. Doesn't take a large percentage of that 6.7 billion learning how to overhaul planes to yield a huge workforce. Aeroman just built three new bays at SAL and I'm sure they can build more.

Sad but true!
B) xUT

 

[Frank Szabo]

... snip

As we say in Oklahoma, "Bless your heart!"

... snip

... or his pointed little head ...

 

[Anomaly]

With airplanes being overhauled in HKG and PVG and PEK and SIN and SAL and MEX, organizing the domestic MROs won't make a difference, IMO.

Domestic MROs have no pricing power, with or without AA's business. Their ability to increase their prices will be tempered by the other 6.7 billion people on the planet who don't live in the USA. Doesn't take a large percentage of that 6.7 billion learning how to overhaul planes to yield a huge workforce. Aeroman just built three new bays at SAL and I'm sure they can build more.

Finally a well qualified answer. I want to disagree however in making a difference. At the end of the day, if the foreign MRO's continue to grow on foreign soil, you could be right. The two big factors remains the cost of transport, and another is that some of these foreign markets are setting up shop right here in the US.

In fact, some areas in the Southern United States have become prime facilities for a company called ST Aerospace. Two of the facilities are known as ST Mobile (or MAE) in Mobile Alabama, and ST Aerospace San Antonio (Texas). Both of these companies were part of an investigation on MRO's exposed in 2009.

http://www.effedieffe.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7801&Itemid=152

ST Aerospace was at that time and still may be, the largest aircraft repair company in the world, with much of the work being done right here in the US. ST stands for Singapore Technologies. Look around on their site.

http://www.staero.aero

I looked in to all this when I first saw the story break way back in 2009. Like I said, my OCD gets the better of me at times. I sent what I found out to the IBT, IAM, an AMFA. I got some follow ups from the IBT, but in fairness, it was because I was able to hand deliver the info to my BA who then passed it on to one of the other IBT groups. They seemed the most interested, but in honesty I have not heard of any progress or big push towards organizing ST facilities. I got no responce from the IAM, and AMFA sent an aknowledgement and courteous "thanks for the info", but no follow up. At least, I pressume, they read it.

A bit more dirt on this issue regarding fines at the facility can be found here.

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=12300


I read a story a couple of months ago in Aviation Daily about Avios and looked into that also. It lead me to Aeroman, the same company you mentioned.

This Canadian company, Avios, became parent to Aeroman and both are now apparently controlled through a company called Aero Technical Support & Services Holdings, based in Luxembourg.

Aveos was founded as Air Canada Technical Services (ACTS) in 1937. It was created as the in-house maintenance division of Trans Canada Airlines, which was the predecessor to Air Canada and performed in house nose to tail heavy maintenance on Boeing and Airbus aircraft. In a process that started in 2007 ACTS acquired 80% of Aeroman while at the same time began a spin off from Air Canada and renamed the new company to Aveos Fleet Performance.

By April 2011, over 4000 IAM represented Air Canada mechanics were forced to make one of seven choices including staying with the airline or moving on. Unfortunately, Air Canada which shifted focus to line maintenance and had only 2,136 openings. The rest of the mechanics either resigned, retired, or stayed on with Aveos. The Union complained the original spin off was illegal and violated contract agreements. Further, they feared Air Canada would use this spin off to send work to low wage countries.

According to IAM Leaders, "We are very scared that jobs will go to El Salvador. After mid-2013, there isn't any obligation on Air Canada's part to do heavy maintenance on the planes in Canada." In 2009, Canadian employees at Aveos earned between $1,700 and $5,500 a month, depending on their seniority, skills and experience, compared with $350 to a max of $1,200 a month at Aeroman.

Aveos shut it's doors in March 2012 and terminated employment for more than 2400 mechanics. Air Canada heavy maintenance was shipped to other countries including China.

Aeroman remains open and continues to expand as the El Salvador operations are not part of the Aveos bankruptcy filing. It is not clear if Aeroman performs maintenance work on Air Canada planes, although the airline like Jet Blue is now looking at lower-cost repair service options closer to home.

The point of all this, I believe the "Foreign" MRO's have been and will continue to set up shop right here in our country. I HOPE you are wrong in making a difference, but I wish any union would at least try to organize these groups. I just cant stop wondering why the Aircraft Mechanics Association has not jumped at the idea. Seems like a no brainer if you ask me, but I have a guess at specific reasons why they do not.

Place bets on who attempts this first? Anyone?

Will it be the Industrial Unions? Or the CRAFT Union?

 

[Anomaly]

Amauseless,

You do go on, don't you?

As we say in Oklahoma, "Bless your heart!"

(in okie talk it means, boy, are you stupid!)

Right back atcha, son.

(In Texas talk, it means Kiss my rebel ass)

 

[FWAAA]

IMO, arguing about why the IBT or AMFA or TWU hasn't organized the domestic MROs is an irrelevant distraction - the long-suffering victims of the TWU deserve better, and if AMFA is their choice, AA's AMTs should sign cards and hold an election. It's difficult to argue that they'd fare any worse with AMFA representing them.

Cost of transport? Maybe that's an issue for airlines that don't serve SAL, but AA serves SAL from DFW and MIA and formerly served SAL from LAX (and with lower costs at AA on the horizon, I predict that LAX will again have nonstops to SAL). Doesn't cost any additional to route planes to SAL for heavy checks if you already serve that city, like AA does.

Same thing with Asian MROs. AA (and all other legacy airlines) already flies to China and HKG is a relatively short hop from mainland China or Tokyo. It's also possible that AA begins flying nonstop to HKG in the future. In any case, Asian MROs are not out-of-the-way for AA, as the 777s already fly to Asia. Cost of transport may be an issue for 763s, but that can be overcome by scheduling 763s to fly West Coast to Asia.

Scheduled maintenance of things with wings that can easily fly away for that scheduled maintenance is not something on which I'd pin my long-term future. Unscheduled maintenance and light maintenance, like A and B checks, on the other hand (like line maintenance at big cities) have to happen wherever the plane is parked overnight and thus, there will always be a need for line maintenance in big cities served by AA. Whether that line maintenance is in-house or outsourced is another story, but just like above, is not relevant to AA's AMTs need to replace the worthless union.

Bottom line is that no aircraft mechanics union has demonstrated the ability to hold back the tide of outsourcing, nor will any union be able to do so in the future. If you want to fix things in the USA for the rest of your career, cars, trucks, buses, trains and subways are good options, as none of them have the current capability of flight. Line maintenance is also a viable option.

 

[Anomaly]

Whether or not AMFA ever attempts to organize domestic MROs is completely irrelevant to the issue that matters to AA's AMTs: the need to dump the worthless union and replace it with representation that is accountable to the membership, like AMFA.

As I pointed out above, foreign MROs prevent the domestic MROs from exercising any pricing power, so organizing them would be a complete waste of time and money. I can see the dues collection unions like TWU and IBT attempting to organize the domestic MROs, however, as the dues are the primary reward for those unions.

I guess we agree, yet differ, but are speaking on two different subjects. Domestically the MRO's are having a problem pulling candidates in to the business because of the low wages. I had read an article on that right after the MRO Americas conference in Aviation Weekly. I will look this up and post the sites sometime later when I find it again. I believe this, plus the fluctuating price of oil and the cost to fly to other countries are two very good points that I believe could counter your theory.

Neither of us, I am guessing, are experts or have much to say about this any way. But I do appreciate your view and it has me looking in to the subject a bit deeper. Does the foreign MRO influence pricing on the domestic side? Very good question.

Your opening statement, however, I completely disagree on a purely philosophical perspective. I believe having ALL licensed aircraft mechanics in this country organized by one Union would create a huge difference in our leverage strength. This is only if both Airline and MRO mechanics are organized in the same Union, and if not under the same contract, at least with protections in place or abilities to honor each others strikes.

Just think about it?