Industrial vs. Craft

[Tex-Mech]

i just completed a phone survey by the Peters Hart Research Co. They were asking all kinds of questions about my feelings toward the TWU, AMFA and Teamsters and how I would feel about being represented by them through our current bankruptcy and/or future merger with US Air.

So who gave the Reamsters our phone numbers...The company or the company union?

Partial Client List

Labor Unions
AFL-CIO
Amalgamated Clothing Workers
American Federation of State, County, & Municipal Employees
American Federation of Teachers
Bricklayers and Allied Craftsmen
Communications Workers of America
International Brotherhood of the Teamsters
International Ladies Garment Workers Union
International Union of Electronic Workers
Paper, Allied-Industrial, Chemical, and Energy Workers International Union
Service Employees International Union
UNITE
United Auto Workers
United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners
United Food and Commercial Workers
United Mine Workers

http://www.hartresearch.com/clients/labor.html

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

OK, Now what?? Is this just another one of your smoke screens? Come on..... that trick is getting old.

According to the NMB

http://www.nmb.gov/r...tion-manual.pdf

9.1 Craft or Class
In craft or class determinations, the NMB considers many factors, including the composition and relative permanency of employee groupings along craft or class lines; the functions, duties, and responsibilities of the employees; the general nature of their work; and the extent of community of interest existing between job classifications. Previous decisions of the NMB are also taken into account.

Are you saying a licensed aircraft mechanic working under FAR 145, is different than us airline employed mechanics in the eyes of the NMB? You sure you know what you are talking about?

Remember, the internet allows me and everyone else to look up an verify all the crap you are spewing.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

Not all MRO mechanics fall under the NMBs jurisdiction

 

[Anomaly]

I would support any unions attempt at organizing MROs, and YES that includes the teamsters.

As many have already posted here, stay FAR AWAY from the teamsters. They lied their way onto the UAL property, and they will attempt to do the same at American.

Be prepared to fight an onslaught of mistruths, twists, and outright lies as they will spend a great deal of $$$green$$$ on organizing in an attempt to flood your membership with hoe great they are and how bad AMFA is.

If its democracy you want, you DON'T want the teamsters.

The teamsters L-I-E-D their way onto UAL property. I never said they cheated. As for the second TA I never said they cheated there either, I just pointed out what incompetent negotiators they were. Something you seem okay with.


That said, since you obviously believe no one trys to better their representation with out first being offered a position, what position did the ibt promise you?

Oh BTW if that was your last straw.....how come you aren't trying to get rid of the ibt? They signed an LOA with United granting seniority rights to SAMC controllers that was never ratified by the membership and we weren't told til weeks after it was signed. A change to our contract without a vote of the membership, another lie from the ibt, as they claimed during their campaign that was something they would NEVER do.

How many of my posts are you going to try and take out of context? I never said there were ONLY two issues with AMFA. You had made a grand sweeping statement of how all the AMFA locals were in a power grab, and I refuted it with the truth. There was no west coast fighting between the locals(something you have yet to refute) and the two instances were there were charges between locals, I listed. You keep trying to play this up, like thats what brought AMFA down. Get a clue, it happens in all unions, and to a larger degree in the teamsters. As I directed before, if you don't believe me just check out the last couple of pages of the teamster journal for the latest IRB findings. Thats right, the teamsters so corrupt they're under independent goverment oversight.

As to how they collected enough cards, how many of the lies and promises do you want me to list? These people must be angry about something the ibt did(or did not) do, as they're signing represntational cards

You admit here and now that while you favor closed door negotiations, the teamsters have done a disservice to their members in some of these closed negotiations, and I'll agree that while I favor open negotiations that the company can gain some advantages.

Why does my lack of support for the ibt bother you???

.

With this said, I think I'm not quite done with this subject, and while I don't wish to engage in this teamster driven nonsense, neither do I fear honest and open debate. I will be involved in other threads when this sort of teamster nonsense spreads there, and I for one will try to help keep the exchange balanced and informative. Since I first responded to this page, I have developed a strong opinion that interested mechanics should indeed know the truth about ALL sides of belonging to a Fraternal Association, and that truth is not conveyed through teamster rhetoric, and fear mongering.

Based on some of your past posts, forgive me if I find that hard to believe.

 

[Anomaly]

I suggest we stop wasting time with arguements about the past and keep our focus on change for our future.
Wollering in the mud with someone who will never change their mind and is a paid shill is playing the opponents game.

There will be a time for all of this. Let's get the cards signed.

YOU KILL ME...... I am laughing my ass off right now.

 

[Anomaly]

Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

Not all MRO mechanics fall under the NMBs jurisdiction

No. I have no clue how the NMB regards the MRO mechanics. That is why I asked the question;

Are you saying a licensed aircraft mechanic working under FAR 145, is different than us airline employed mechanics in the eyes of the NMB?

I simply cited the NMB description Informer suggested.

Do you know? Would they be under the RLA? I am not suggesting that I know any of this. I am simply stating that it is funny that an AIRCRAFT MECHANICS UNION, AMFA, has done nothing to engage in thousands of unrepresented AIRCRAFT MECHANICS.

WHY?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Based on some of your past posts, forgive me if I find that hard to believe.

Well then allow me to make it clearer for you.

When it comes to our craft I will never support a "NO UNION" position.

You were focusing your point on unorganized MROs, which as I said I would support any union including the teamsters if they were to try an organize them.

You quote me from the discussion on American Airlines, they are not an MRO nor are they currently unorganized.

And based on what their current AMTs have posted they are most concerned with, democracy, accountability, transparency, etc based on my experience the teamsters are not that union.

Nevermind the fact that it appears rather obvious now that the teamsters are only here at American to play spoiler.

 

[Anomaly]

About Solidarity


Cool...
Not my choice, but hey, who am I?
B) xut

I do not agree with all publications either, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometime. The article, regardless of the source, was overall informative. Are you here simply to BS me, or do you challenge that?

http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/180

 

[Anomaly]

Well then allow me to make it clearer for you.

When it comes to our craft I will never support a "NO UNION" position.

You were focusing your point on unorganized MROs, which as I said I would support any union including the teamsters if they were to try an organize them.

You quote me from the discussion on American Airlines, they are not an MRO nor are they currently unorganized.

And based on what their current AMTs have posted they are most concerned with, democracy, accountability, transparency, etc based on my experience the teamsters are not that union.

Nevermind the fact that it appears rather obvious now that the teamsters are only here at American to play spoiler.

And yet you offer no insight as to why AMFA, the Aircraft Mechanics Association, has not campaigned to represent the Aircraft Mechanics at the MRO's??

You all shout the CRAFT UNION mantra, but are not willing to see it through. Organize the CRAFT.

That is all I am saying. Organize ALL OF THEM, not just the Airlines. If AMFA at least tried that, it would improve my view of them.

Once again. Will AMFA attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

No. I have no clue how the NMB regards the MRO mechanics. That is why I asked the question;

Are you saying a licensed aircraft mechanic working under FAR 145, is different than us airline employed mechanics in the eyes of the NMB?

I simply cited the NMB description Informer suggested.

Do you know? Would they be under the RLA? I am not suggesting that I know any of this. I am simply stating that it is funny that an AIRCRAFT MECHANICS UNION, AMFA, has done nothing to engage in thousands of unrepresented AIRCRAFT MECHANICS.

WHY?

Is that you playing ignorant?

Here is your exchange and one could be forgiven for viewing it as a challenge rather than a legitimate question.

Are you saying a licensed aircraft mechanic working under FAR 145, is different than us airline employed mechanics in the eyes of the NMB? You sure you know what you are talking about?

Remember, the internet allows me and everyone else to look up an verify all the crap you are spewing.

You claim in reponse to me you don't know how the NMB classifies the MRO mechanics....yet in reference to his post you talk of verifying the crap he is spewing.

Well if you freely admit you DONT KNOW, why call it crap unless you do know

Sounds like a challenge to what he was saying to me.

 

[Anomaly]

Other Unions IAM, IBT, and IAM assisted in the hiring of scabs and the IBT Pilots of commuter airlines flew flights to make up for delays due to lack of maintenace. The Article refutes nothing regarding those facts.

Facts ??? NO.

Another lie ?? Yes.

Show me these facts. Give me an article. Or a reference. I have not seen this claim that it was the other unions fault on any of the documents I have looked up.

I think you are making this up. The other Unions too had their hands full with NWA and the bankruptcy.

Again,

http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/180

Sorry that data is to be used at a strategic later date and will not be displayed publicly until that time and I have been asked to not post it.

This was worth a repeat. I am still laughing over this one.

 

[Anomaly]

Is that you playing ignorant?

Here is your exchange and one could be forgiven for viewing it as a challenge rather than a legitimate question.



You claim in reponse to me you don't know how the NMB classifies the MRO mechanics....yet in reference to his post you talk of verifying the crap he is spewing.

Well if you freely admit you DONT KNOW, why call it crap unless you do know

Sounds like a challenge to what he was saying to me.

And another dodge from you.

SIMPLY ANSWER THE QUESTION !

Will AMFA attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And yet you offer no insight as to why AMFA, the Aircraft Mechanics Association, has not campaigned to represent the Aircraft Mechanics at the MRO's??

You all shout the CRAFT UNION mantra, but are not willing to see it through. Organize the CRAFT.

That is all I am saying. Organize ALL OF THEM, not just the Airlines. If AMFA at least tried that, it would improve my view of them.

Once again. Will AMFA attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

I have never disagreed the MROs need to be organized.

I have simply pointed out the ridiculous nature of your position. You want to critique AMFA for NOT organizing MROs, and when faced with the fact that the teamsters, who you support, have done nothing to speak of in that regard, you try and deflect by saying that only AMFA calls itself a craft union.

The MRO threat is either real or it isn't, period.

The teamsters are just as guilty for their inactions as AMFA is.

Will AMFA ever make an attempt to organize them? I don't know, I'm no longer part of that union.

Will the teamsters ever make that attempt?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And another dodge from you.

SIMPLY ANSWER THE QUESTION !

Will AMFA attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

How should I know, I work at UAL I'm a teamster.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And another dodge from you.

SIMPLY ANSWER THE QUESTION !

Will AMFA attempt to organize the MRO's. Any of them??

Oh and your dodge is duely noted.

Since you don't know how MRO AMTs are classified maybe you should look it up and educate yourself

 

[Buck]

AMFA Constitution


There shall be two divisions of membership:

1. Airline Technical Division – shall include all
licensed and unlicensed maintenance personnel who
work or instruct directly on aircraft and/or components
of a certificated air carrier and are responsible
for the airworthiness or workmanship of the aircraft
and/or its components. This includes maintenance
support technicians and related personnel as defined
by the National Mediation Board’s determination of
the Mechanics and Related Class and Craft.


2. Aviation Technical Division – shall include all
licensed and unlicensed maintenance personnel who
work directly on general aviation aircraft and/or
components and are responsible for the airworthiness
and workmanship of an aircraft and/or its
components. This includes line, shop, and hangar
maintenance.

Very informative.

As for the certification statement by Quagmire, I believe that under the Aviation Technical Division, one could become certified possibly ensuring compensation for tickets other than an A&P. The industrial unionists will try anything to divide maintenance. I just don't understand what is wrong even in their minds with those mechanics having the freedom to opt out of the industrial complex mentality.