Industrial vs. Craft

[Anomaly]

Just so we are clear, I have no desire to meet you Face to Face you called me Anti-Union and I took exception to it I said I would like to see you call me that to my face. If you ever do I will adjust the bridge of your nose for you. But so we are perfectly clear I am not looking to meet you just letting you know you crossed a line

My nose has been adjusted quite a few times, thanks anyway. Pick another part if you don't mind. :blush:

 

[Anomaly]

Just so we are clear, I have no desire to meet you Face to Face you called me Anti-Union and I took exception to it I said I would like to see you call me that to my face. If you ever do I will adjust the bridge of your nose for you. But so we are perfectly clear I am not looking to meet you just letting you know you crossed a line

By the way, just so we are clear, you wrote;

....the history of labor is littered with the failures of Industrial Unions, but all you can do is blame the republicans and democrats the supreme court, public opinion and of course Independent thinkers Like AMFA that dare to tell you the road you are on leads to the middle of nowhere and you should turn back.

DRIVE ON!!! until all unions are dead and gone!!!!

I did not make this up or twist it in any way. This was YOUR post, aapitbull #1530 written on July 26, 2012 at 10:16AM.

As written, it has a very anti union flare to it, and a connotation that you would like to see the end of all industrial unions. This is how I read it, but again, YOU wrote this. Not me. It is unfortunate you are behaving in this manner, but I guess it is what it is.

 

[Buck]

Is it not anti union to keep the mechanics at AA the lowest paid in comparison to the industry and the TWU beloved other groups?

 

[Anomaly]

There have been a few posts on how much better AMFA is doing for the cleaners than the IBT. My answer was that AMFA does not want to represent the cleaners! They never have, and have fought against representing them their entire existence. As proof, I dug up an NMB ruling on an AMFA protest in 2004 involving AA. I have copied a portion of the content below for any of you non believers.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2004/31n111.pdf


Re: NMB Case No. R-6998 American Airlines

2. AMFA
AMFA disputed TWU’s contention that cabin cleaners and lavatory service employees are part of the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class. AMFA argued that, although cabin cleaning and lavatory service falls within the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class, these employees are largely fleet service clerks belonging in the Fleet Service Employees craft or class. Moreover, AMFA contended that TWU failed to provide substantive evidence that these fleet service clerks spent the majority of their time performing cabin cleaning or lavatory service in the 60 days preceding the voter eligibility cut-off date.


AMFA did nothing to help the cleaner work group at UAL. I doubt they will help them at AA.

 

[Anomaly]

Is it not anti union to keep the mechanics at AA the lowest paid in comparison to the industry and the TWU beloved other groups?

I wish you would make just even a lick of sense

 

[Anomaly]

AMFA just voted on the new constitution.

.....Well, a few of them did anyway. I wonder how many of these voters are "charter" members??

From AMFA web site (I will not provide the link for this)

AMFA Constitution Amendments Referendum Results Jul 26, 2012 - Posted by: Steven Nowak
The votes for the AMFA Constitution Amendments Referendum were tallied on July 26, 2012. TrueBallot Inc. conducted the vote and tally by use of the WebVote® system. A total of thirty-one (31) proposed amendments were submitted to the AMFA membership for consideration. The membership voted to ratify all thirty-one (31) amendments. The ratified amendments take effect immediately. Ballots Mailed 2581
Eligible Voters 2582
Eligible Ballots Cast 468



(18.13% participation)

The amendments will now be passed on to the Rules Committee to be incorporated into the existing AMFA Constitution for publication and printing. A provisional electronic version of the AMFA Constitution 2012 will be posted under the Membership Resources on the AMFA National Website and will be emailed to each Local as soon as possible.

For all their talk about loyalty in their Democratic Association, it does not seem like many really give a sh*t.

Just saying....

 

[TWU informer]

AMFA just voted on the new constitution.

.....Well, a few of them did anyway. I wonder how many of these voters are "charter" members??

From AMFA web site (I will not provide the link for this)

AMFA Constitution Amendments Referendum Results Jul 26, 2012 - Posted by: Steven Nowak
The votes for the AMFA Constitution Amendments Referendum were tallied on July 26, 2012. TrueBallot Inc. conducted the vote and tally by use of the WebVote® system. A total of thirty-one (31) proposed amendments were submitted to the AMFA membership for consideration. The membership voted to ratify all thirty-one (31) amendments. The ratified amendments take effect immediately. Ballots Mailed 2581
Eligible Voters 2582
Eligible Ballots Cast 468

(18.13% participation)

The amendments will now be passed on to the Rules Committee to be incorporated into the existing AMFA Constitution for publication and printing. A provisional electronic version of the AMFA Constitution 2012 will be posted under the Membership Resources on the AMFA National Website and will be emailed to each Local as soon as possible.

For all their talk about loyalty in their Democratic Association, it does not seem like many really give a sh*t.

Just saying....

That sure is dissappointing involvement and apathy runs high. I am not sure that apathy issue is one that AMFA has a monopoly on though. Funny you would bring up 18%. Isn't that just about the Mechanic work group percentage of the Teamsters Airline Division? I mean the Mechanics in the Teamsters would have to have near 100% participation to get that same 18% influence if represented by the Teamsters. That will sure create some loyalty right there.

In my TWU Local we have over 5,000 members and less than 300 go to the monthly Union Meetings. That is less than 6% invovlement.

Apathy is a serious issue for all Unions. Maybe if you would focus on solutions to the problem instead of pretending it is isolated to the AMFA, we would all be better off?

The conitnued FEAR and SMEAR campaign really isn't helpful either, if apathy is a true concern of yours.

But alas, I suspect that this apathy problem really isn't the issue with you. I suspect your goal is more in line with using every negative item that ALL Unions are dealing with and try your best to make them appear to be isolated to AMFA.

At least the membership of AMFA gets the chance to VOTE. Some Unions do not even allow voting on Constitutional changes to begin with. If "loyalty" is measured by participation as you claim, where does that leave the Union that doesn't even allow their members the chance to vote? ZERO particiaption would surely be even worse than a pathetic 18%. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Integrity - Being able to listen to opposite opinions without bias or attack. You may or may not agree, but to personally attack the other for expressing contrary views speaks volumes to your personal lack of integrity. AMFA has historically gone on the attack mode at the onslaught of every election. Like you, they begin each attempted raid with a host of negative press about the current union, then again like you, cry foul when their own weaknesses are pointed out. You and your fellow supporters created and posted several negative threads and comments about every "industrial union" yet when I or others point out the problems with AMFA, you call it a fear and smear campaign, then proclaim the author as a liar.

Your lack, or failure, of these all important traits do not go un-noticed. I say again, AMFA failed in part because of people like you. Under an AMFA system, the loudest and most arrogant take the leadership roles over the most reasonable and qualified.
The common denominator of the AMFA leadership seems to be one of anger at the establishment. Anger on it's own, however, is not a leadership skill. I followed this movement once, but will not do it again.

Integrity as you describe it is indeed a noble ideal, it isn't however indicative of your own behavior on this board. As such it speaks those very same volumes to the distinctive lack of your integrity, and your flagrant hypocrisy yet again.

Its indeed ironic that those failures you attempt to assign to AMFA can be said in equal measure about the ibt. It is the people like you and your lack of listed traits that ensure the ibt will fail whenever they take the stance you have here. You complain about those who take positions in AMFA, and cite most reasonable & qualification? Really? The ibt and their appointed "yes" men? Our BAs in SFO were gifted their positions because they collected cards and passed out flyers NOT because of their qualifications.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

There have been a few posts on how much better AMFA is doing for the cleaners than the IBT. My answer was that AMFA does not want to represent the cleaners! They never have, and have fought against representing them their entire existence. As proof, I dug up an NMB ruling on an AMFA protest in 2004 involving AA. I have copied a portion of the content below for any of you non believers.

http://www.nmb.gov/r...2004/31n111.pdf


Re: NMB Case No. R-6998 American Airlines

2. AMFA
AMFA disputed TWU’s contention that cabin cleaners and lavatory service employees are part of the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class. AMFA argued that, although cabin cleaning and lavatory service falls within the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class, these employees are largely fleet service clerks belonging in the Fleet Service Employees craft or class. Moreover, AMFA contended that TWU failed to provide substantive evidence that these fleet service clerks spent the majority of their time performing cabin cleaning or lavatory service in the 60 days preceding the voter eligibility cut-off date.


AMFA did nothing to help the cleaner work group at UAL. I doubt they will help them at AA.

Don't know who you're talking to......I for one never claimed AMFA didn't try to have the cleaners removed from the mechanics class and craft. I merely pointed out that they DID in fact represent them once they were certified, as they are required to.

I did point out your LIE, that AMFA helped UAL get rid of the cleaners.

I also pointed out the ibts failure at United in representing the cleaners interests.

Under AMFA, the cleaners wages were reduced due to bankruptcy.

Under the ibt the cleaners wages were reduced in normal section 6 negotiations....with all those resources....all those professionals on staff......all those "appointed" negotiators....all that "teamster power" .......

Cleaners wages at top out were REDUCED by over $3 Dollars!


The ibt did nothing to help the cleaner work group at UAL. I doubt they will help them at AA.

 

[aapitbull]

My nose has been adjusted quite a few times, thanks anyway. Pick another part if you don't mind. :blush:

My nose has been adjusted quite a few times, thanks anyway. Pick another part if you don't mind. :blush:

That is not suprising that happens quite often to those running around spewing facts and figures written but others that they no nothing about all the while refusing to go out and educated themselves and form their own opinion they can backup from a source that has no money in the game.

 

[aapitbull]

By the way, just so we are clear, you wrote;

....the history of labor is littered with the failures of Industrial Unions, but all you can do is blame the republicans and democrats the supreme court, public opinion and of course Independent thinkers Like AMFA that dare to tell you the road you are on leads to the middle of nowhere and you should turn back.

DRIVE ON!!! until all unions are dead and gone!!!!

I did not make this up or twist it in any way. This was YOUR post, aapitbull #1530 written on July 26, 2012 at 10:16AM.

As written, it has a very anti union flare to it, and a connotation that you would like to see the end of all industrial unions. This is how I read it, but again, YOU wrote this. Not me. It is unfortunate you are behaving in this manner, but I guess it is what it is.

I see nothing in this post that is ANTI-Union it is a fact that Unionism in this country has been on decline for 58yrs and it is a fact that the industrial unions blame everyone else for that You would have me believe that is just a coincidence that the start of the AFL-CIO and all their committees and political dealings mirrior the fall. I have sighted several times where people who have nothing to do with AMFA in fact do not even favor a return to the Craft model say the same thing that it is the dictatorship of the AFL-CIO and the industrial Union Philosphy that has caused people to break ranks not Independent unions as you claim.

The facts are if we do not reverse course and get out of election politics and bring true Democracy back to unionism it will die and you and thousands of others either will not or cannot see that fact,you cling to the life boat the Titanic is sinking right behind you and you still claim everything is fine.

DRIVE ON!! it want be long!

 

[aapitbull]

There have been a few posts on how much better AMFA is doing for the cleaners than the IBT. My answer was that AMFA does not want to represent the cleaners! They never have, and have fought against representing them their entire existence. As proof, I dug up an NMB ruling on an AMFA protest in 2004 involving AA. I have copied a portion of the content below for any of you non believers.

http://www.nmb.gov/r...2004/31n111.pdf


Re: NMB Case No. R-6998 American Airlines

2. AMFA
AMFA disputed TWU’s contention that cabin cleaners and lavatory service employees are part of the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class. AMFA argued that, although cabin cleaning and lavatory service falls within the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class, these employees are largely fleet service clerks belonging in the Fleet Service Employees craft or class. Moreover, AMFA contended that TWU failed to provide substantive evidence that these fleet service clerks spent the majority of their time performing cabin cleaning or lavatory service in the 60 days preceding the voter eligibility cut-off date.


AMFA did nothing to help the cleaner work group at UAL. I doubt they will help them at AA.

Again you post something you know nothing about at AA we do not have true cabin cleaning that job is a bid job within the Fleet service group so every 90 days the people holding the job changes in many cases they are working the gate and simply go up and clean the plane before loading and unloading the plane. the company did not even add these people to the list until we caught them red handed lying about over 1200 people. Once the were caught they admitted we were right and removed those folks this would have gave us a election easily, but then company went and made up theses postions they claimed fuelers at DFW where there had been no fueling in over a decade they maintained that there were twice as many of these cleaners in MIA than in DFW even though DFW had 2.5 times as many flights at the time.

The facts are these folks did not meet the conditions as described by the NMB manual. We had many cleaners signed and did not seek to remove the ones who actually where cleaners.

 

[aapitbull]

AMFA just voted on the new constitution.

.....Well, a few of them did anyway. I wonder how many of these voters are "charter" members??

From AMFA web site (I will not provide the link for this)

AMFA Constitution Amendments Referendum Results Jul 26, 2012 - Posted by: Steven Nowak
The votes for the AMFA Constitution Amendments Referendum were tallied on July 26, 2012. TrueBallot Inc. conducted the vote and tally by use of the WebVote® system. A total of thirty-one (31) proposed amendments were submitted to the AMFA membership for consideration. The membership voted to ratify all thirty-one (31) amendments. The ratified amendments take effect immediately. Ballots Mailed 2581
Eligible Voters 2582
Eligible Ballots Cast 468



(18.13% participation)

The amendments will now be passed on to the Rules Committee to be incorporated into the existing AMFA Constitution for publication and printing. A provisional electronic version of the AMFA Constitution 2012 will be posted under the Membership Resources on the AMFA National Website and will be emailed to each Local as soon as possible.

For all their talk about loyalty in their Democratic Association, it does not seem like many really give a sh*t.

Just saying....

Well the IBT represented the M&R at Air Tran and only needed a few hundred signed cards to call for a election at SWA within the rules of the NMB on mergers they did spend alot of money trying to obtain those cards and yet when the time came for single carrier status they bowed out with a whimper I guess someone is loyal to AMFA.

 

[Buck]

I wish you would make just even a lick of sense

Is it ok for the TWU to keep the mechanics at American Airlines at the bottom in wages of their craft, when the Fleet Service group, the Pilots and Flight Attendants are at or near the top of their wage scales?

 

[767 mechanic]

There have been a few posts on how much better AMFA is doing for the cleaners than the IBT. My answer was that AMFA does not want to represent the cleaners! They never have, and have fought against representing them their entire existence. As proof, I dug up an NMB ruling on an AMFA protest in 2004 involving AA. I have copied a portion of the content below for any of you non believers.

http://www.nmb.gov/r...2004/31n111.pdf


Re: NMB Case No. R-6998 American Airlines

2. AMFA
AMFA disputed TWU’s contention that cabin cleaners and lavatory service employees are part of the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class. AMFA argued that, although cabin cleaning and lavatory service falls within the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class, these employees are largely fleet service clerks belonging in the Fleet Service Employees craft or class. Moreover, AMFA contended that TWU failed to provide substantive evidence that these fleet service clerks spent the majority of their time performing cabin cleaning or lavatory service in the 60 days preceding the voter eligibility cut-off date.


AMFA did nothing to help the cleaner work group at UAL. I doubt they will help them at AA.

I see you have proven yourself to be a liar again. I was wanting to call you on this,but Pitbull beat me to it. Will you explain your lie above? Wll you divert attention or will you just refuse to answer? This is typical of the industrial cultist. The twu did the same thing when they blamed the AMFA for closing UALs Indy and Oak maintenance bases. The twu,ibt and iam have no limits on how low they will go when it comes to lieing to the membership. The facts are the company attempted to put people on the eligability list that were not suppose to be there so that they could protect their lap dog union the same as they put dead people on the list. The AMFA will accept any a/c cleaner that is legally suppose to be on the list,but will contest anybody that the company or the union puts on the list to pad the numbers to deny an election. Your attempt to decieve and lie to the membership has been proven again. I do believe you have proven to the readers of this forum that you have no creditability and that they should question anything that you say as far as its truthfulness