Industrial vs. Craft

[TWU informer]

You are the epitome of an AMFA leader. One who criticizes and complains about others, and dismisses their own SAME actions as justified. You responded to my first several posts with threats and name calling and even reduced yourself to trying to hit me with religious connotations. You created a personal attack on me, and along with Ken Mac Tiernan and Buck, lambasted me for not identifying myself. Why do you need to know who I am? Is it so AA Pittbull can "meet me face to face" because he disagrees with my opinions?

For my part, I have slapped right back at all of you and have no worry about any face to face meeting. Hell, I'll even buy the first round. We have all been guilty to some degree. You point fingers but discount your own actions. Like a typical AMFA leader you hide behind words like Democracy, Solidarity, and Integrity, but never really demonstrate those values.

Democracy - Sometimes the majority is simply wrong. It takes a real leader to stand up to the membership and do what is right for a long term solution. With the AMFA total Democratic process, how can anyone ever stand against a bad decision?

Solidity - At times, solidarity means standing for other work groups within your company or industry. AMFA comes out attacking all the other work groups for various reasons, then complains when these other Unions do not support them in times of need. You mock the big unions and criticize them for not helping your cause.

Integrity - Being able to listen to opposite opinions without bias or attack. You may or may not agree, but to personally attack the other for expressing contrary views speaks volumes to your personal lack of integrity. AMFA has historically gone on the attack mode at the onslaught of every election. Like you, they begin each attempted raid with a host of negative press about the current union, then again like you, cry foul when their own weaknesses are pointed out. You and your fellow supporters created and posted several negative threads and comments about every "industrial union" yet when I or others point out the problems with AMFA, you call it a fear and smear campaign, then proclaim the author as a liar.

Your lack, or failure, of these all important traits do not go un-noticed. I say again, AMFA failed in part because of people like you. Under an AMFA system, the loudest and most arrogant take the leadership roles over the most reasonable and qualified.
The common denominator of the AMFA leadership seems to be one of anger at the establishment. Anger on it's own, however, is not a leadership skill. I followed this movement once, but will not do it again.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.
Your complete post is about attacking indivduals and their character and then you claim that is a lack of integrity.

This isn't about individuals.

This isn't about Character Flaws

This isn't about Judging those Character flaws in public. We all have them.

And AMFA has not FAILED.

Because of people like you, the idea of getting all Mechanics into a Craft Union has not even been tried.
How can an idea actually fail until is has been tried?

To my knowledge, you are not being asked to follow the movement, but instead you are here trying to prevent us from doing so.

You don't even have a horse in the race.....ER Uh, maybe you do, in Union Logo only. Two Horse Heads anyway.

"Whatever you say WILBUR"
Mr. Ed

 

[DNTULSA]

You are the epitome of an AMFA leader. One who criticizes and complains about others, and dismisses their own SAME actions as justified. You responded to my first several posts with threats and name calling and even reduced yourself to trying to hit me with religious connotations. You created a personal attack on me, and along with Ken Mac Tiernan and Buck, lambasted me for not identifying myself. Why do you need to know who I am? Is it so AA Pittbull can "meet me face to face" because he disagrees with my opinions?

For my part, I have slapped right back at all of you and have no worry about any face to face meeting. Hell, I'll even buy the first round. We have all been guilty to some degree. You point fingers but discount your own actions. Like a typical AMFA leader you hide behind words like Democracy, Solidarity, and Integrity, but never really demonstrate those values.

Democracy - Sometimes the majority is simply wrong. It takes a real leader to stand up to the membership and do what is right for a long term solution. With the AMFA total Democratic process, how can anyone ever stand against a bad decision?

Solidity - At times, solidarity means standing for other work groups within your company or industry. AMFA comes out attacking all the other work groups for various reasons, then complains when these other Unions do not support them in times of need. You mock the big unions and criticize them for not helping your cause.

Integrity - Being able to listen to opposite opinions without bias or attack. You may or may not agree, but to personally attack the other for expressing contrary views speaks volumes to your personal lack of integrity. AMFA has historically gone on the attack mode at the onslaught of every election. Like you, they begin each attempted raid with a host of negative press about the current union, then again like you, cry foul when their own weaknesses are pointed out. You and your fellow supporters created and posted several negative threads and comments about every "industrial union" yet when I or others point out the problems with AMFA, you call it a fear and smear campaign, then proclaim the author as a liar.

Your lack, or failure, of these all important traits do not go un-noticed. I say again, AMFA failed in part because of people like you. Under an AMFA system, the loudest and most arrogant take the leadership roles over the most reasonable and qualified.
The common denominator of the AMFA leadership seems to be one of anger at the establishment. Anger on it's own, however, is not a leadership skill. I followed this movement once, but will not do it again.

anonymouse,

Bless your heart!

 

[AC Tynker]

No one has a magic bullet but the reason people have quit going is they do not trust those who are in power they know them for the liars they are that is why I keep telling you the IBT will not fly at DFW and the line. Because while we have our problems we do have control over our locals and routinely turn out 250 to 300 a month at our meetings because people feel like they can get honest info, like I said before we would be forced into a local with 5000 guy most of which have nothing to do with the airline industry and we would have no control over our future.



I do attend meetings at DFW and even though everyone knows that I am a leader within the AMFA drive no one is tyring to throw me out or put me in bad standing some do not agree with me but that is that, how do think I would be treated if I showed up at local 514.
You say the organizers cannot stand together well I would tell you everyone of the line presidents and AFW have stood together on this issue from the very start and have been run over by John Hewitt and the Intl using 6 title 2 and 1 title 3 plus the two from Tulsa to shove this down our throats, it is worth pointing out there are 2000 title 2 guys system wide and 9500 title 1 but the title 2 guys make up half of the committee.Funny you metion title 5 stores, tulsa lost there representative due to Dan Mitchell being thrown out of office because he was a vote no guy and they got a better deal go figure.

The answer lies in Accountabilty and Democracy not because you will be recalling folks all the time but because you can. If your leadership knows they can be held accountable they will act accordingly if they know you cannot touch them they are free to do whatever they want, like run over the line presidents and kiss the companies ass. I find it funny that Mr Ream is out running around the line promoting a yes vote and Cirri and Hewiit are doing the same thing in Tulsa so anywhere the TWU leadership want do it management will and if I know the TWU it will all end in a vote yes rally in Tulsa with Ream Cirri and Hewitt on one stage watch and see and you wonder why people do not show up!

In the mid to late 90's here in TULE you were lucky to find a parking spot sometimes on afternoons even out towards mingo because there were so many people working but when you went to a Union meeting finding a place to sit was no problem even as small as the old hall was. Peoples unity and drive fell off even before that for whatever reason and has never recovered. There are diehard people that stay involved and try to do all they can but with attrition those numbers are dwindling because most likely due to culture no one is replacing them. That's the best I know to explain it. I have told you I believe more than once I am not pushing IBT but that's fine just trying to save a little typing trying to explain the way they work, no big deal I'll read what you have to say.

No one has been threatened or even hinted to about bad standing that I know of but then again I don't know everything. I don't take an angry or militant stance against anyone that supports or organizes but that's just me and I didn't in anyway insinuate that Organizers couldn't stick together I said Local Presidents and Current Contract negotiators and membership for that matter. Everyone seems to have an agenda of some sort. Some trying to what they believe is right and then everyone else. I really don't like the idea of using names on here because of online security but The Tulsa Stores Chairman wasn't thrown out of office and what he did he can thank no one but himself because he went against everything an Officer agrees to when he/she raises their right hand being sworn in. It's not my place nor do I believe this is the place to address what he did so I won't but he is defiantly a victim of His Own circumstance and He let his membership down not the other way around.

 

[whoop whoop]

You are the epitome of an AMFA leader. One who criticizes and complains about others, and dismisses their own SAME actions as justified. You responded to my first several posts with threats and name calling and even reduced yourself to trying to hit me with religious connotations. You created a personal attack on me, and along with Ken Mac Tiernan and Buck, lambasted me for not identifying myself. Why do you need to know who I am? Is it so AA Pittbull can "meet me face to face" because he disagrees with my opinions?

For my part, I have slapped right back at all of you and have no worry about any face to face meeting. Hell, I'll even buy the first round. We have all been guilty to some degree. You point fingers but discount your own actions. Like a typical AMFA leader you hide behind words like Democracy, Solidarity, and Integrity, but never really demonstrate those values.

Democracy - Sometimes the majority is simply wrong. It takes a real leader to stand up to the membership and do what is right for a long term solution. With the AMFA total Democratic process, how can anyone ever stand against a bad decision?

Solidity - At times, solidarity means standing for other work groups within your company or industry. AMFA comes out attacking all the other work groups for various reasons, then complains when these other Unions do not support them in times of need. You mock the big unions and criticize them for not helping your cause.

Integrity - Being able to listen to opposite opinions without bias or attack. You may or may not agree, but to personally attack the other for expressing contrary views speaks volumes to your personal lack of integrity. AMFA has historically gone on the attack mode at the onslaught of every election. Like you, they begin each attempted raid with a host of negative press about the current union, then again like you, cry foul when their own weaknesses are pointed out. You and your fellow supporters created and posted several negative threads and comments about every "industrial union" yet when I or others point out the problems with AMFA, you call it a fear and smear campaign, then proclaim the author as a liar.

Your lack, or failure, of these all important traits do not go un-noticed. I say again, AMFA failed in part because of people like you. Under an AMFA system, the loudest and most arrogant take the leadership roles over the most reasonable and qualified.
The common denominator of the AMFA leadership seems to be one of anger at the establishment. Anger on it's own, however, is not a leadership skill. I followed this movement once, but will not do it again.

1) The majority is sometimes wrong?? Typical industrial mentality. We are smarter than you, we know what is best for you. The majority is NEVER wrong, if it is the majorities wish to jump off the George Washington bridge, that is the correct choice. There is obviously a reason for it that the majority sees and people with blinders on like you do not. The unions job is to do what their employers ( the majority) want, plain and simple!!!!!!

2) Do not talk to us about solidarity. Your beloved industrial unions ( ibt, iam, twu) ALL SCABBED AMFA because of your hatred of AMFA. I nor any AMFA supporter I know would ever cross a picket line because we do not like the organization. We see the bigger picture unlike you industrial commy lovers!!!!!!!

3) Integrity, thats funny coming from a person who supports a SCAB organization. Do you know that at least 4 members of the ibt leadership that represents the new UAL are CAL SCABS from 83. I don't see the ibt kicking them out. As far as mud slinging, I started this thread in order for someone to give some positives of industrial unionism, and only one person put some bullet points that were half truths at BEST!!!! The rest of you have done nothing but try to bash AMFA and their supporters.

You sir/madam, are a comedian at best with your ridiculous post. Do you even think about some of the garbage that comes out of your mouth?

 

[Anomaly]

1) The majority is sometimes wrong?? Typical industrial mentality. We are smarter than you, we know what is best for you. The majority is NEVER wrong, if it is the majorities wish to jump off the George Washington bridge, that is the correct choice. There is obviously a reason for it that the majority sees and people with blinders on like you do not. The unions job is to do what their employers ( the majority) want, plain and simple!!!!!!

2) Do not talk to us about solidarity. Your beloved industrial unions ( ibt, iam, twu) ALL SCABBED AMFA because of your hatred of AMFA. I nor any AMFA supporter I know would ever cross a picket line because we do not like the organization. We see the bigger picture unlike you industrial commy lovers!!!!!!!

3) Integrity, thats funny coming from a person who supports a SCAB organization. Do you know that at least 4 members of the ibt leadership that represents the new UAL are CAL SCABS from 83. I don't see the ibt kicking them out. As far as mud slinging, I started this thread in order for someone to give some positives of industrial unionism, and only one person put some bullet points that were half truths at BEST!!!! The rest of you have done nothing but try to bash AMFA and their supporters.

You sir/madam, are a comedian at best with your ridiculous post. Do you even think about some of the garbage that comes out of your mouth?

I don't think I even need to respond to this.....

My point is made.

 

[Anomaly]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.
Your complete post is about attacking indivduals and their character and then you claim that is a lack of integrity.

This isn't about individuals.

This isn't about Character Flaws

This isn't about Judging those Character flaws in public. We all have them.

And AMFA has not FAILED.

Because of people like you, the idea of getting all Mechanics into a Craft Union has not even been tried.
How can an idea actually fail until is has been tried?

To my knowledge, you are not being asked to follow the movement, but instead you are here trying to prevent us from doing so.

You don't even have a horse in the race.....ER Uh, maybe you do, in Union Logo only. Two Horse Heads anyway.

"Whatever you say WILBUR"
Mr. Ed

AMFA at one time had around 20,000 members. They are now down to under 3K I believe? How can you still believe the craft philosophy has never been tried, or that it has not failed???

 

[TWU informer]

AMFA at one time had around 20,000 members. They are now down to under 3K I believe? How can you still believe the craft philosophy has never been tried, or that it has not failed???

Is 20,000 ALL MECHANICS in your mind?

Has not been tried.

Twist, Spin, Lie, and Deny All You Want.

The Readers here will decide what is being said, and what is being twisted.

 

[Flying low]

AMFA at one time had around 20,000 members. They are now down to under 3K I believe? How can you still believe the craft philosophy has never been tried, or that it has not failed???

TWU had x# of AMT'S and will soon have how many less?
IBT had x# of AMT'S and now have how many less?
NON UNION airlines had x# of AMT'S and have now have how many less?

 

[DNTULSA]

TWU had x# of AMT'S and will soon have how many less?
IBT had x# of AMT'S and now have how many less?
NON UNION airlines had x# of AMT'S and have now have how many less?

You will just confuse him with facts.

How about this one;

what is the most succesful airline?

Southwest.

Who represents the mechanics at Southwest?

AMFA!

 

[whoop whoop]

Hey, wasn't there supposed to be some ibt meeting at Tulsa on the 26th? By the way, what is the difference from TUL & TULE? Thanks my soon to be AMFA peers. :-D

 

[iluvaa]

Hey, wasn't there supposed to be some ibt meeting at Tulsa on the 26th? By the way, what is the difference from TUL & TULE? Thanks my soon to be AMFA peers. :-D

Tul is Tulsa tule is the maintance base

 

[whoop whoop]

I think I got it. Tul would be the guys working the terminal end of things, and Tule would be strictly the hangars.

 

[iluvaa]

I think I got it. Tul would be the guys working the terminal end of things, and Tule would be strictly the hangars.

Yep that's it

 

[aapitbull]

You created a personal attack on me, and along with Ken Mac Tiernan and Buck, lambasted me for not identifying myself. Why do you need to know who I am? Is it so AA Pittbull can "meet me face to face" because he disagrees with my opinions?

Just so we are clear, I have no desire to meet you Face to Face you called me Anti-Union and I took exception to it I said I would like to see you call me that to my face. If you ever do I will adjust the bridge of your nose for you. But so we are perfectly clear I am not looking to meet you just letting you know you crossed a line

 

[Anomaly]

TWU had x# of AMT'S and will soon have how many less?
IBT had x# of AMT'S and now have how many less?
NON UNION airlines had x# of AMT'S and have now have how many less?

IBT is and has actually been growing. Thanks for pointing that out.