Industrial vs. Craft

[Anomaly]

There have been a few posts on how much better AMFA is doing for the cleaners than the IBT. My answer was that AMFA does not want to represent the cleaners! They never have, and have fought against representing them their entire existence. As proof, I dug up an NMB ruling on an AMFA protest in 2004 involving AA. I have copied a portion of the content below for any of you non believers.

http://www.nmb.gov/r...2004/31n111.pdf


Re: NMB Case No. R-6998 American Airlines

2. AMFA
AMFA disputed TWU’s contention that cabin cleaners and lavatory service employees are part of the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class. AMFA argued that, although cabin cleaning and lavatory service falls within the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class, these employees are largely fleet service clerks belonging in the Fleet Service Employees craft or class. Moreover, AMFA contended that TWU failed to provide substantive evidence that these fleet service clerks spent the majority of their time performing cabin cleaning or lavatory service in the 60 days preceding the voter eligibility cut-off date.


AMFA did nothing to help the cleaner work group at UAL. I doubt they will help them at AA.

Again you post something you know nothing about at AA we do not have true cabin cleaning that job is a bid job within the Fleet service group so every 90 days the people holding the job changes in many cases they are working the gate and simply go up and clean the plane before loading and unloading the plane. the company did not even add these people to the list until we caught them red handed lying about over 1200 people. Once the were caught they admitted we were right and removed those folks this would have gave us a election easily, but then company went and made up theses postions they claimed fuelers at DFW where there had been no fueling in over a decade they maintained that there were twice as many of these cleaners in MIA than in DFW even though DFW had 2.5 times as many flights at the time.

The facts are these folks did not meet the conditions as described by the NMB manual. We had many cleaners signed and did not seek to remove the ones who actually where cleaners.

The quote I posted above is an argument from YOUR AMFA attorneys, not me. Maybe you should have helped them out because your explanation does not appear as clear on the NMB documents. Besides the above translation from the NMB, they also included the one below (however, the original protest from AMFA is far less clear. In fact, the protest from Seeham can be categorized as legal whining with very little substantive content. Read it here http://www.twu562.or...mantopoulos.pdf )

(13) approximately 233 fuelers who belong in the Fleet Service Employees craft or class rather than the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class; and (14) 366 cleaners and 149 janitors who are identified as working at locations where these jobs functions were outsourced by American. AMFA also listed a miscellaneous category of other exclusions that identified no employees, but which requested the Investigator to examine AMFA’s submitted declarations for further excludable employees.

A good point against the law firm used by AMFA is the responses and full decision by the NMB. In fact, the TWU response does a very good job at showing what a three ring circus act makes up SEHAM, SEHAM..

http://amfa-aa.home....wu-response.pdf

The entire document is a good read if you want to have a good laugh at the associations legal team, but to get to your specific point, drop down to page 15-20. It does a much better job at explaining the situation and is a bit more in line with your suggestions except for the TWA component which you left out.

 

[Anomaly]

Is it ok for the TWU to keep the mechanics at American Airlines at the bottom in wages of their craft, when the Fleet Service group, the Pilots and Flight Attendants are at or near the top of their wage scales?

Ohhh, I never realized it was the TWU keeping you at the bottom. Shame on them. They should pay you more.

(wow..... this guy is a class act B) )

 

[Hopeful]

Ohhh, I never realized it was the TWU keeping you at the bottom. Shame on them. They should pay you more.

(wow..... this guy is a class act B) )

Buck actually has a point. Up until some years ago when M&R separated from Fleet service, locals were ran by fleet service presidents and other officials who used to tell us mechanics a loaf of bread costs the same for them as it does for a mechanic.
For decades I saw fleet service performing all their respeective work on contract carriers while mechanics were told "that's the way is brothers."

Yes anomaly, the TWU has kept the mechanic classification at the bottom.

How do explain fleet service rising to the top?

 

[Anomaly]

I see you have proven yourself to be a liar again. I was wanting to call you on this,but Pitbull beat me to it. Will you explain your lie above? Wll you divert attention or will you just refuse to answer? This is typical of the industrial cultist. The twu did the same thing when they blamed the AMFA for closing UALs Indy and Oak maintenance bases. The twu,ibt and iam have no limits on how low they will go when it comes to lieing to the membership. The facts are the company attempted to put people on the eligability list that were not suppose to be there so that they could protect their lap dog union the same as they put dead people on the list. The AMFA will accept any a/c cleaner that is legally suppose to be on the list,but will contest anybody that the company or the union puts on the list to pad the numbers to deny an election. Your attempt to decieve and lie to the membership has been proven again. I do believe you have proven to the readers of this forum that you have no creditability and that they should question anything that you say as far as its truthfulness

I will agree with the bold part of your statement above. But that is about it. The history of AMFA for the 35th time was to attempt to EXCLUDE the cleaners from the maintenance class and craft prior to any election. This was standard for ALL AMFA raids. First, declare a card drive, second, petition the NMB to have the cleaners removed from the class and craft, third, loose the chance to have a vote due to a lack of cards, and finally, protest the whole issue again blaming the cleaners for the lack of cards.

They did it over and over again for years. Look it up for yourself on the NMB web site. All the past appeals are there, but it does require some reading. Educate yourself before you call someone a liar. Ignorance is curable my friend. I'm here to help. B)

 

[Anomaly]

Buck actually has a point. Up until some years ago when M&R separated from Fleet service, locals were ran by fleet service presidents and other officials who used to tell us mechanics a loaf of bread costs the same for them as it does for a mechanic.
For decades I saw fleet service performing all their respeective work on contract carriers while mechanics were told "that's the way is brothers."

Yes anomaly, the TWU has kept the mechanic classification at the bottom.

How do explain fleet service rising to the top?

Simple. The company paid them more than they were willing to pay you. I just have a hard time believing the position that the blame for this falls to the union. This is the fault of the company. It is a conspiracy theory as ridicules as the Apollo Moon landings being shot in the Arizona desert.

At the same time, I do not disagree with your position on trying to separate. It does seem a conflict of interest to negotiate both contracts. That may or may not be actual, but the appearance is certainly there.

 

[TWU informer]

The quote I posted above is an argument from YOUR AMFA attorneys, not me. Maybe you should have helped them out because your explanation does not appear as clear on the NMB documents. Besides the above translation from the NMB, they also included the one below (however, the original protest from AMFA is far less clear. In fact, the protest from Seeham can be categorized as legal whining with very little substantive content. Read it here http://www.twu562.or...mantopoulos.pdf )

(13) approximately 233 fuelers who belong in the Fleet Service Employees craft or class rather than the Mechanics and Related Employees craft or class; and (14) 366 cleaners and 149 janitors who are identified as working at locations where these jobs functions were outsourced by American. AMFA also listed a miscellaneous category of other exclusions that identified no employees, but which requested the Investigator to examine AMFA’s submitted declarations for further excludable employees.

A good point against the law firm used by AMFA is the responses and full decision by the NMB. In fact, the TWU response does a very good job at showing what a three ring circus act makes up SEHAM, SEHAM, MELTZ & PETERSEN, LLP.

http://amfa-aa.home....wu-response.pdf

The entire document is a good read if you want to have a good laugh at the associations legal team, but to get to your specific point, drop down to page 15-20. It does a much better job at explaining the situation and is a bit more in line with your suggestions except for the TWA component which you left out.

And now the TWU advoctes voting YES on a T/A that will elimnate the last of all building cleaners/janitors in question. ALL OF THEM

Amazing how they were important to the TWU when preventing a Representaional Election, but today, they are as expendable as our pay and benefits.

You are really doing yourself more damage than good, while defending these unskilled individuals. But keep up the good work, every AMT on the planet will accept the AMFA arguement as good for the profession. If the NMB disagrees, then they will be in the Union.

Given your fetish for these unskilled, I still think that you are one of them, and not a Mechanic at all.

All the arguements in the world will not change the fact that the National Mediation Board ultimately determines the defined craft or class. So what is your point? Do you think these workers should remain in the craft or class and make the same as mechanics? Is that your arguement here?

 

[Anomaly]

Well the IBT represented the M&R at Air Tran and only needed a few hundred signed cards to call for a election at SWA within the rules of the NMB on mergers they did spend alot of money trying to obtain those cards and yet when the time came for single carrier status they bowed out with a whimper I guess someone is loyal to AMFA.

What? Are you kidding me???

Air Tran has about 500 mechanics vs Southwests 1,750. Under the new NMB rules, a required 30% is needed for NEW unions. This is not a new Union and the full 50% plus 1 is needed to decide between the two. As for bowing out with a whimper, there are very many article out there declaring the Teamster continued negotiations with the former Air Tran group. They stayed with them until they were able to reach a deal with both SWA and AMFA.

 

[TWU informer]

What? Are you kidding me???

Air Tran has about 500 mechanics vs Southwests 1,750. Under the new NMB rules, a required 30% is needed for NEW unions. This is not a new Union and the full 50% plus 1 is needed to decide between the two. As for bowing out with a whimper, there are very many article out there declaring the Teamster continued negotiations with the former Air Tran group. They stayed with them until they were able to reach a deal with both SWA and AMFA.

So the ibt could not convince those SWA AMT's to sign enough teamsters cards to cause an election? Say it aint so.
Not even 600 SWA cards out the 1750? Really? That pretty much says it all in my opinion.

 

[Anomaly]

And now the TWU advoctes voting YES on a T/A that will elimnate the last of all building cleaners/janitors in question. ALL OF THEM

Amazing how they were important to the TWU when preventing a Representaional Election, but today, they are as expendable as our pay and benefits.

You are really doing yourself more damage than good, while defending these unskilled individuals. But keep up the good work, every AMT on the planet will accept the AMFA arguement as good for the profession. If the NMB disagrees, then they will be in the Union.

Given your fetish for these unskilled, I still think that you are one of them, and not a Mechanic at all.

All the arguements in the world will not change the fact that the National Mediation Board ultimately determines the defined craft or class. So what is your point? Do you think these workers should remain in the craft or class and make the same as mechanics? Is that your arguement here?

This subject of this argument was created by Third Seat Hero on 26 July 2012 -03:04 AM Post # 1525. In it, he claims that AMFA was a better union for the cleaners than the IBT. I disagree.

If you were not so busy reporting people for hurting your feeling, maybe you could keep up.....

 

[Anomaly]

So the ibt could not convince those SWA AMT's to sign enough teamsters cards to cause an election? Say it aint so.
Not even 600 SWA cards out the 1750? Really? That pretty much says it all in my opinion.

Excellent. I'm glad your done. Have a nice day.

 

[TWU informer]

This subject of this argument was created by Third Seat Hero on 26 July 2012 -03:04 AM Post # 1525. In it, he claims that AMFA was a better union for the cleaners than the IBT. I disagree.

If you were not so busy reporting people for hurting your feeling, maybe you could keep up.....

Excellent. I'm glad your done. Have a nice day.

You have an amazing ability to dodge, deflect, and ignore important details to float your opinions.
But you are not answering any questions. But personal attacks are your forte

I am currently represented by the TWU and the cleaners are being sold down the river. Keep up with that.
This isn't the Anamoly show, it is the Industrial Union vs Craft Union thread.

What is your fetish with the unsklled? Are you one, or married to one? Which is it?

 

[Hopeful]

Simple. The company paid them more than they were willing to pay you.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!
When the fleet service controlled us BEFORE we separated, the company gave the TWU a $$$$ package which was distributed by the FLEET SERVICE CONTROLLED TWU!

They controlled the purse strings.

 

[Anomaly]

Another find on the AMFA attorneys.

(note; there was some court activity on this due to the fact that the poster pretended to be another person associated with the firm. With that, it seems some of the complaints may be over reaching. However, I find it readable strictly on an entertainment value. It was found on the web at http://compasscorrectioncoalition.com/2011/11/18/i-will-destroy-your-lawfirm)

Monday. September 19,201111:02:07 AM ET
Subject: Seham
Date: Monday, September 19, 201110:49:34 AM ET​

Rumor has it that former USAPA General Counsel Lee Seham has buried himself in the bottom of a whiskey bottle whilst he ruminates about how he can delay the inevitable. Sources tell us that USAPA is about to announce that they have retained a CPA firm with expertise in the legal auditing arena. The whispered background on this firm indicates that they have capabilities in the forensic accounting area as well as a strong criminal investigations background and significant forensic information technologies resources. Partnering with this firm will be a special counsel with extensive experience in all matters related to New York Bar ethics violations. As Seham looks for any available path to the lifeboat, one must wonder if he intends to take his crew with him on his sinking ship.​

Our sources tell us that SSMP managing general partner, Louis Meltz has now written to USAPA President Cleary, staking out what can only be described as a desperate defensive position. Meltz reportedly accused unnamed USAPA members as trying to “destroy the firm”. One must wonder how an airline pilot could destroy a law firm simply by proffering the opinion that SSMP should be subject to the same accounting standards as is customary for all reputable law firms. Perhaps it is because Meltz knows that SSMP cannot stand up to the scrutiny that will undoubtedly come as a result of the decision to have SSMP’s billing practices audited. Is it possible that should Seham lose the ability to continue to bill USAPA in a way that provides no verification of services and lacks any true accountability that the house of cards known as Seham, Seham, Meltz & Petersen will come tumbling down?​

Could it be true that Seham with his narcissistic, morally bankrupt obsession with what is best for Lee Seham would actually place all of his firms loyal and capable lawyers and staff at risk while attempting to pocket the last available USAPA dollars? It seems unfathomable to our observers that accomplished lawyers like Scott Petersen, Louis Meltz, Nick Granath and others would place themselves at such a high level of risk for a man who is concerned with nothing other than his own self interests and has no plausible path that will successfully protect SSMP from the inevitable conclusion that it has engaged in fraudulent billing practices.​

We wonder how much of the wealth Mr. Seham has shared with his loyal but gullible staff. Seham has engaged in a systematic extraction of millions of dollars from the pilots represented by USAPA. The pilots employed by US Airways are all too familiar with this type of individual who would reach into their wallet while telling them that if only they would not notice the financial pain, all will work out in the end. Something tells us that this time it will be different. The man who was supposed to defend the pilot’s interests will not be allowed to extort millions and walk away unscathed. We hope his partners and staff are all wise enough to avoid being sucked into the swirl as Seham washes himself down the drain.​

 

[Anomaly]

Simple. The company paid them more than they were willing to pay you. I just have a hard time believing the position that the blame for this falls to the union. This is the fault of the company. It is a conspiracy theory as ridicules as the Apollo Moon landings being shot in the Arizona desert.

At the same time, I do not disagree with your position on trying to separate. It does seem a conflict of interest to negotiate both contracts. That may or may not be actual, but the appearance is certainly there.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!
When the fleet service controlled us BEFORE we separated, the company gave the TWU a $$$$ package which was distributed by the FLEET SERVICE CONTROLLED TWU!

They controlled the purse strings.

I entered mistakenly before I was quite done. I added a small part that I believe would address your concern. In short, I do not disagree. My apologies for the confusion.

 

[Hopeful]

I entered mistakenly before I was quite done. I added a small part that I believe would address your concern. In short, I do not disagree. My apologies for the confusion.

Not a problem. But that's why we separated.