Industrial vs. Craft

[aapitbull]

Actually there is no proof that Einstein said that. Most believe the quote first appeared from author Rita Mae Brown in her book Sudden Death on Pg. 68 from 1983. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

It makes me wonder what else in your above statement in questionable. Unions got in to the political arena in 1955? Are you sure about that?

None of this explains your original Drive On comment about anti unions. I still don't get it. Perhaps you can explain it in SFO. I look forward to watching you try.

You want to know why I said DRIVE ON, one because it points out the DRIVE campaign the Teamsters make sound big and important, but it was also to say you and the teamsters are driving the wrong direction you keep passing signs of danger ahead yet you will not stop or turn around you have become trapped in the institutional politic's and cannot see the forest for the trees, it is clear to many of us that you are going to be in a headon collision with reality and the movement will not survive.

I am tired of arguing with a blind follower who does nothing but reprint others lies.

Start educating yourself, I would recommend the series of articles at the link below to start they are as true about the movement as they are about the TWU/IAM/IBT teamsters, the articles point out what should be more than obvious to anyone paying attention but you will probably just attack the messenger as you do anyone who speaks the truth.

http://laboreducator.org/broken.htm

It is worth pointing out I do not agree with all is solutions but if his ideals where implemented I would listen to what was being said, as long as the basis of it is democratic control and everyone being elected and recallable then there is hope I would urge folks to get out of election politics but that is just me However since folks like yourself do not even believe there is a problem I will stick to my plan to organize AMFA because even though they have their faults they do offer a new direction with democracy and accountabilty

 

[TWU informer]

Actually there is no proof that Einstein said that. Most believe the quote first appeared from author Rita Mae Brown in her book Sudden Death on Pg. 68 from 1983. "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

It makes me wonder what else in your above statement in questionable. Unions got in to the political arena in 1955? Are you sure about that?

None of this explains your original Drive On comment about anti unions. I still don't get it. Perhaps you can explain it in SFO. I look forward to watching you try.

Who cares who made the statement? The point is that the AFL-CIO and the Industrial Union strategy has not only failed the skilled craftsmen, it has completely destroyed Organized Labor.

aapitbull's entire post was about this fact, and all you can do is deflect attention away from the documented failure, and instead you want to argue about who made the statement that clearly defines the AFL-CIO and Industrial Union strategy insanity.

This is all you do here, deflect attention away from relevant information and personally attack individuals. That is weak!

Again this chart show the facts. AFL-CIO merged in 1955 mixing the skilled in with the unskilled.
Look at the result of that ignorance.

 

[aapitbull]

Does AMFA come with a magic bundle that includes a membership that support the leaders and stand behind them promoting unity among their peers. Do they communicate with one another instead of forming their little anti whatever think tanks that talk about nothing but how bad they hate the Union that is in place. Do they automatically fill the seats during Union meetings and have so many people trying to crowd in that someone makes a motion to either have more meetings or add on to the building to accommodate the unified people that want first hand info instead of what the steward said or someone they know that went tries to relay but is only human and can't remember everything or gets mixed up.

No one has a magic bullet but the reason people have quit going is they do not trust those who are in power they know them for the liars they are that is why I keep telling you the IBT will not fly at DFW and the line. Because while we have our problems we do have control over our locals and routinely turn out 250 to 300 a month at our meetings because people feel like they can get honest info, like I said before we would be forced into a local with 5000 guy most of which have nothing to do with the airline industry and we would have no control over our future.

I am thinking our strength and unity will be the same no matter who represents us until someone figures out how to capture the support of the masses and changes our culture at AA which I am willing to bet won't come with a change in Unions. I remember reading a post from an ACTUAL AMFA member at WN I believe that told all of you charter members or wanna be's or whatever I am supposed to call you stating that even while trying run your AMFA drive you needed to go to Union meetings for your current Union and show some involvement to keep us strong while going through bk and that was dismissed as being someone that didn't understand. The negotiators can't even unify and stay strong. Everyone was told or instructed or whatever to bring back the LBO I and take a neutral stance for whatever reason. The Tulsa negotiators did for the most part (can't speak for stores not sure what they did) only to be blindsided within days with the Vote No video from a group of presidents with their own agenda.

I do attend meetings at DFW and even though everyone knows that I am a leader within the AMFA drive no one is tyring to throw me out or put me in bad standing some do not agree with me but that is that, how do think I would be treated if I showed up at local 514.
You say the organizers cannot stand together well I would tell you everyone of the line presidents and AFW have stood together on this issue from the very start and have been run over by John Hewitt and the Intl using 6 title 2 and 1 title 3 plus the two from Tulsa to shove this down our throats, it is worth pointing out there are 2000 title 2 guys system wide and 9500 title 1 but the title 2 guys make up half of the committee.Funny you metion title 5 stores, tulsa lost there representative due to Dan Mitchell being thrown out of office because he was a vote no guy and they got a better deal go figure.

The answer lies in Accountabilty and Democracy not because you will be recalling folks all the time but because you can. If your leadership knows they can be held accountable they will act accordingly if they know you cannot touch them they are free to do whatever they want, like run over the line presidents and kiss the companies ass. I find it funny that Mr Ream is out running around the line promoting a yes vote and Cirri and Hewiit are doing the same thing in Tulsa so anywhere the TWU leadership want do it management will and if I know the TWU it will all end in a vote yes rally in Tulsa with Ream Cirri and Hewitt on one stage watch and see and you wonder why people do not show up!

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Do you have participation numbers as to what percentage of the membership actually voted or even expressed interest enough to go to meetings when contractual discussions where being held since 1983 ? I don't but from what I have personally seen during my time at AA the numbers are quite low. Whether Industrial or Craft I am pretty sure a Union needs some kind of unity and an involved membership to have any strength but maybe I am wrong.

Does AMFA come with a magic bundle that includes a membership that support the leaders and stand behind them promoting unity among their peers. Do they communicate with one another instead of forming their little anti whatever think tanks that talk about nothing but how bad they hate the Union that is in place. Do they automatically fill the seats during Union meetings and have so many people trying to crowd in that someone makes a motion to either have more meetings or add on to the building to accommodate the unified people that want first hand info instead of what the steward said or someone they know that went tries to relay but is only human and can't remember everything or gets mixed up.

I am thinking our strength and unity will be the same no matter who represents us until someone figures out how to capture the support of the masses and changes our culture at AA which I am willing to bet won't come with a change in Unions. I remember reading a post from an ACTUAL AMFA member at WN I believe that told all of you charter members or wanna be's or whatever I am supposed to call you stating that even while trying run your AMFA drive you needed to go to Union meetings for your current Union and show some involvement to keep us strong while going through bk and that was dismissed as being someone that didn't understand. The negotiators can't even unify and stay strong. Everyone was told or instructed or whatever to bring back the LBO I and take a neutral stance for whatever reason. The Tulsa negotiators did for the most part (can't speak for stores not sure what they did) only to be blindsided within days with the Vote No video from a group of presidents with their own agenda.

Will a Craft Union fix all of that by just mending all broken trusts and magically make everyones agenda the same ? I know I have read here that things can be taken care of democratically by having a percentage of the membership recalling officers or whatever the terminology is but what makes you think we would have enough participation to make that system even work when our meeting that we had with the lawyers in the beginning of BK drew 6 or 8 hundred people and almost half that was spouses out of 5700 +/-.

I do have one idea that may do the trick to get people to a hall, church, public park or whatever a new AMFA local uses if they win. You could do your comedy routine just like you do on here BUCK. I know that usually every post you make on here and the more serious you try to be the harder I laugh. Maybe you could headline at 514 meetings for a couple months to get people used to going and then during your intermission real Union Information could be put out and then bring you back up to finish and you send everyone home with a side ache from laughing during your show not being able to wait til next month.

Your sarcasm at the end of your post aside, you've hit on one of the most troubling aspects of airline unions today - membership apathy.

I don't think there is a "magic bullet" fix to this. If you voted the ibt or AMFA in tomorrow I seriously doubt your meeting attendance at AA would sky rocket in either case. Just as an example, here in SFO after the ibt won representation, our first craft meetings were well attended, as of now several years, and several broken promises/lies later, other than the officers and reps, you'd be lucky to see 10 members from the floor.

Truth be told, under AMFA the meeting attendance wasn't much better, but it WAS better. Speaking for SFO, we did have alot more communication via ALR reports, briefing notes, etc then than most other stations.

For my part, I believe that ANY union MUST have checks and balances if there is to be any hope to growing/sustaining membership involvement, and solidarity.

Why should any mechanic group stay involved with its union when that union, has little to no democracy in its actions, or accountability to those same members when their trust, and/or collective desires have been ignored?

If you cannot or will not represent the membership as the MEMBERSHIP wishes, and then deny that membership the ability to affect change by removing the offending party, then that will ALWAYS serve as a catalyst for the type of apathy you describe

JMHO

 

[Birdman]

Yes

How?

 

[TWU informer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU&feature=player_embedded

 

[iluvaa]

Why the hell is everyone blaming me for his actions? I was suspended before myself, and it was because of my own actions and a post that I made and was considered by the moderators to be worthy of suspension and warn status, not because someone "turned me in" or reported that post. The guy made his bed and I didn't put him in it. He was pushing the limit on the identity of others issue which is the same violation I committed and he put himself on suspension. He was even inlcuding some threats along with identification of others.

No big deal, he will be back, just as I was. He and everyone else just need to leave the identity of others issue alone and stop violating that policy.

Everyone cannot see another users warn status, but you can see your own if you have been warned

TWU Informer
Veteran
Registered Member
5,946 posts
1 warning points

It is typical Industrial Union thinking to believe that nobody should be held accountable, and that rules are made to be broken. When someone breaks the rules and is caught, then they all blame it on someone else. Just like murderers and molestors who lawyers claim their parents are responsilble. And now the Industrial Unionist even use that thought process as a campaign/debate tool on this forum. Very professional! That is what you get with Teamsters, TWU, and IAM, no rules, unaccountable professionals, and then unable to compete in this industry. Then they want you to vote YES on concessions to save jobs. Their motto is "lower the pay and benefits" but never hold us all accountable. That is Pathetic and Wrong!

I was suspended for almost 2months for using some very choice words about our ex CEO. I didnt complain about being reported I was wrong but just didnt care I was speaking out of anger

 

[Buck]

Do you have participation numbers as to what percentage of the membership actually voted or even expressed interest enough to go to meetings when contractual discussions where being held since 1983 ? I don't but from what I have personally seen during my time at AA the numbers are quite low. Whether Industrial or Craft I am pretty sure a Union needs some kind of unity and an involved membership to have any strength but maybe I am wrong.

Does AMFA come with a magic bundle that includes a membership that support the leaders and stand behind them promoting unity among their peers. Do they communicate with one another instead of forming their little anti whatever think tanks that talk about nothing but how bad they hate the Union that is in place. Do they automatically fill the seats during Union meetings and have so many people trying to crowd in that someone makes a motion to either have more meetings or add on to the building to accommodate the unified people that want first hand info instead of what the steward said or someone they know that went tries to relay but is only human and can't remember everything or gets mixed up.

I am thinking our strength and unity will be the same no matter who represents us until someone figures out how to capture the support of the masses and changes our culture at AA which I am willing to bet won't come with a change in Unions. I remember reading a post from an ACTUAL AMFA member at WN I believe that told all of you charter members or wanna be's or whatever I am supposed to call you stating that even while trying run your AMFA drive you needed to go to Union meetings for your current Union and show some involvement to keep us strong while going through bk and that was dismissed as being someone that didn't understand. The negotiators can't even unify and stay strong. Everyone was told or instructed or whatever to bring back the LBO I and take a neutral stance for whatever reason. The Tulsa negotiators did for the most part (can't speak for stores not sure what they did) only to be blindsided within days with the Vote No video from a group of presidents with their own agenda.

Will a Craft Union fix all of that by just mending all broken trusts and magically make everyones agenda the same ? I know I have read here that things can be taken care of democratically by having a percentage of the membership recalling officers or whatever the terminology is but what makes you think we would have enough participation to make that system even work when our meeting that we had with the lawyers in the beginning of BK drew 6 or 8 hundred people and almost half that was spouses out of 5700 +/-.

I do have one idea that may do the trick to get people to a hall, church, public park or whatever a new AMFA local uses if they win. You could do your comedy routine just like you do on here BUCK. I know that usually every post you make on here and the more serious you try to be the harder I laugh. Maybe you could headline at 514 meetings for a couple months to get people used to going and then during your intermission real Union Information could be put out and then bring you back up to finish and you send everyone home with a side ache from laughing during your show not being able to wait til next month.

Thank You

 

[Tulsamechanic9]

Why the hell is everyone blaming me for his actions? I was suspended before myself, and it was because of my own actions and a post that I made and was considered by the moderators to be worthy of suspension and warn status, not because someone "turned me in" or reported that post. The guy made his bed and I didn't put him in it. He was pushing the limit on the identity of others issue which is the same violation I committed and he put himself on suspension. He was even inlcuding some threats along with identification of others.

No big deal, he will be back, just as I was. He and everyone else just need to leave the identity of others issue alone and stop violating that policy.

Everyone cannot see another users warn status, but you can see your own if you have been warned

TWU Informer
Veteran
Registered Member
5,946 posts
1 warning points

It is typical Industrial Union thinking to believe that nobody should be held accountable, and that rules are made to be broken. When someone breaks the rules and is caught, then they all blame it on someone else. Just like murderers and molestors who lawyers claim their parents are responsilble. And now the Industrial Unionist even use that thought process as a campaign/debate tool on this forum. Very professional! That is what you get with Teamsters, TWU, and IAM, no rules, unaccountable professionals, and then unable to compete in this industry. Then they want you to vote YES on concessions to save jobs. Their motto is "lower the pay and benefits" but never hold us all accountable. That is Pathetic and Wrong!

I agree that people should be held accountable for their actions, I suspect that if people stuck to the issues instead of personally attacking the member no one would care about names, In my opinion a person loses their credibility once the resort to belittling & name calling anyway, they diminish themselves more than the person their personally attacking, I see it as a low self esteeme and confidence issue just my opinion.

 

[AC Tynker]

Thank You

No I insist, Thank You !! Throughout all the serious text on here that addresses Job loss, Wage Loss, Benefit Loss, Motivation, Unity and Pride Loss that tie to our misfortune and people from other carriers that have told their stories of what has happened over the years I can always count on your input, like I said no matter how serious it may be to make me laugh hysterically.

 

[Vortilon]

lol yeh It gets quite entertaining at times.

Like I've pointed out before, these paid antagonists on this board - all seem to have that same (light in the loafers) touch to them. "LOL" really.. who posts that on this BB? One of Raptorboy's many AKAs.

 

[amtcraig1]

Do you have participation numbers as to what percentage of the membership actually voted or even expressed interest enough to go to meetings when contractual discussions where being held since 1983 ? I don't but from what I have personally seen during my time at AA the numbers are quite low. Whether Industrial or Craft I am pretty sure a Union needs some kind of unity and an involved membership to have any strength but maybe I am wrong.

Does AMFA come with a magic bundle that includes a membership that support the leaders and stand behind them promoting unity among their peers. Do they communicate with one another instead of forming their little anti whatever think tanks that talk about nothing but how bad they hate the Union that is in place. Do they automatically fill the seats during Union meetings and have so many people trying to crowd in that someone makes a motion to either have more meetings or add on to the building to accommodate the unified people that want first hand info instead of what the steward said or someone they know that went tries to relay but is only human and can't remember everything or gets mixed up.

I am thinking our strength and unity will be the same no matter who represents us until someone figures out how to capture the support of the masses and changes our culture at AA which I am willing to bet won't come with a change in Unions. I remember reading a post from an ACTUAL AMFA member at WN I believe that told all of you charter members or wanna be's or whatever I am supposed to call you stating that even while trying run your AMFA drive you needed to go to Union meetings for your current Union and show some involvement to keep us strong while going through bk and that was dismissed as being someone that didn't understand. The negotiators can't even unify and stay strong. Everyone was told or instructed or whatever to bring back the LBO I and take a neutral stance for whatever reason. The Tulsa negotiators did for the most part (can't speak for stores not sure what they did) only to be blindsided within days with the Vote No video from a group of presidents with their own agenda.

Will a Craft Union fix all of that by just mending all broken trusts and magically make everyones agenda the same ? I know I have read here that things can be taken care of democratically by having a percentage of the membership recalling officers or whatever the terminology is but what makes you think we would have enough participation to make that system even work when our meeting that we had with the lawyers in the beginning of BK drew 6 or 8 hundred people and almost half that was spouses out of 5700 +/-.

I do have one idea that may do the trick to get people to a hall, church, public park or whatever a new AMFA local uses if they win. You could do your comedy routine just like you do on here BUCK. I know that usually every post you make on here and the more serious you try to be the harder I laugh. Maybe you could headline at 514 meetings for a couple months to get people used to going and then during your intermission real Union Information could be put out and then bring you back up to finish and you send everyone home with a side ache from laughing during your show not being able to wait til next month.

TWU informer, on 27 July 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:



Why the hell is everyone blaming me for his actions? I was suspended before myself, and it was because of my own actions and a post that I made and was considered by the moderators to be worthy of suspension and warn status, not because someone "turned me in" or reported that post. The guy made his bed and I didn't put him in it. He was pushing the limit on the identity of others issue which is the same violation I committed and he put himself on suspension. He was even inlcuding some threats along with identification of others.

No big deal, he will be back, just as I was. He and everyone else just need to leave the identity of others issue alone and stop violating that policy.

Everyone cannot see another users warn status, but you can see your own if you have been warned

TWU Informer
Veteran
Registered Member
5,946 posts
1 warning points

It is typical Industrial Union thinking to believe that nobody should be held accountable, and that rules are made to be broken. When someone breaks the rules and is caught, then they all blame it on someone else. Just like murderers and molestors who lawyers claim their parents are responsilble. And now the Industrial Unionist even use that thought process as a campaign/debate tool on this forum. Very professional! That is what you get with Teamsters, TWU, and IAM, no rules, unaccountable professionals, and then unable to compete in this industry. Then they want you to vote YES on concessions to save jobs. Their motto is "lower the pay and benefits" but never hold us all accountable. That is Pathetic and Wrong!


I agree that people should be held accountable for their actions,

I try not to pipe up on here BUT. If you don't work with your current union to stand together...you maybe getting just what TWAinformer speaks above... A Fraternal Association...One that he makes clear..with "Lawyers claim" now if you ask a lawyer, they my say in this country we have a Democracy...Everyone has there day in court...to be defended. But in this Association (the brotherhood) They believe the charges brought against you.. and then decide if your actions were Professional. If it wasn't O well you will be held accountable..

AMFA does not have the fortitude, guidance, or self control to sit back and ask themselves, "maybe by continuing this crusade we are actually doing more harm than good?" AMFA has no guiding light or moral principal.

 

[aapitbull]

TWU informer, on 27 July 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:



Why the hell is everyone blaming me for his actions? I was suspended before myself, and it was because of my own actions and a post that I made and was considered by the moderators to be worthy of suspension and warn status, not because someone "turned me in" or reported that post. The guy made his bed and I didn't put him in it. He was pushing the limit on the identity of others issue which is the same violation I committed and he put himself on suspension. He was even inlcuding some threats along with identification of others.

No big deal, he will be back, just as I was. He and everyone else just need to leave the identity of others issue alone and stop violating that policy.

Everyone cannot see another users warn status, but you can see your own if you have been warned

TWU Informer
Veteran
Registered Member
5,946 posts
1 warning points

It is typical Industrial Union thinking to believe that nobody should be held accountable, and that rules are made to be broken. When someone breaks the rules and is caught, then they all blame it on someone else. Just like murderers and molestors who lawyers claim their parents are responsilble. And now the Industrial Unionist even use that thought process as a campaign/debate tool on this forum. Very professional! That is what you get with Teamsters, TWU, and IAM, no rules, unaccountable professionals, and then unable to compete in this industry. Then they want you to vote YES on concessions to save jobs. Their motto is "lower the pay and benefits" but never hold us all accountable. That is Pathetic and Wrong!


I agree that people should be held accountable for their actions,

I try not to pipe up on here BUT. If you don't work with your current union to stand together...you maybe getting just what TWAinformer speaks above... A Fraternal Association...One that he makes clear..with "Lawyers claim" now if you ask a lawyer, they my say in this country we have a Democracy...Everyone has there day in court...to be defended. But in this Association (the brotherhood) They believe the charges brought against you.. and then decide if your actions were Professional. If it wasn't O well you will be held accountable..

AMFA does not have the fortitude, guidance, or self control to sit back and ask themselves, "maybe by continuing this crusade we are actually doing more harm than good?" AMFA has no guiding light or moral principal.

Are you the guy from local 14 that got fired brought back on a thin Ice letter and got fired again and you are mad they did not take your case a second time. There are 2 AA guys at AFW that got fired and had to hire Lee Seham to go to abritration because the local did not think they had a case. So it happens in all unions from time to time and usaully because the person in question has done something stupid. We had a guy at DFW that got caught stealing parts off another employees car the Local did not represent him but they did pay for the abritrator he got a lawyer and lost.

 

[amtcraig1]

Are you the guy from local 14 that got fired brought back on a thin Ice letter and got fired again and you are mad they did not take your case a second time. There are 2 AA guys at AFW that got fired and had to hire Lee Seham to go to abritration because the local did not think they had a case. So it happens in all unions from time to time and usaully because the person in question has done something stupid. We had a guy at DFW that got caught stealing parts off another employees car the Local did not represent him but they did pay for the abritrator he got a lawyer and lost.

No I am not that person, I am from local 14 I also go by the name Brain on here. so if you look that up you will know who I am.. I do know that person of who you speak... and yes let me tell you about that...he got terminated, (reasons not req. for example here). the union took it to abritration. they won, he came back to work.... great. now if your familiar with abritration. They said the person can't commit the same infractions again within a 12month time. Now this person had a legal battle going with the company. (I don't know what for so don't ask). he comes back to work and what do you know, the company fires him for the same reasons as the first time? This is what the union told it's members. and that do to that they weren't going to abrritration with it, unless this person paid for it. so he is gone...the union says thats ok he has a job already....good luck to him. O and by the way...I hear he worked a deal with the company involving his legal battle and the firing with the company.. this company sure has some good luck..

 

[TWU informer]

No I am not that person, I am from local 14 I also go by the name Brain on here. so if you look that up you will know who I am.. I do know that person of who you speak... and yes let me tell you about that...he got terminated, (reasons not req. for example here). the union took it to abritration. they won, he came back to work.... great. now if your familiar with abritration. They said the person can't commit the same infractions again within a 12month time. Now this person had a legal battle going with the company. (I don't know what for so don't ask). he comes back to work and what do you know, the company fires him for the same reasons as the first time? This is what the union told it's members. and that do to that they weren't going to abrritration with it, unless this person paid for it. so he is gone...the union says thats ok he has a job already....good luck to him. O and by the way...I hear he worked a deal with the company involving his legal battle and the firing with the company.. this company sure has some good luck..

So a guy signs an agreement not to commit the infraction again for 12 months, he cannot comply, and you are blaming AMFA?
And now you have an axe to grind? Whatever happened to being accountable for his own actions? At some point professional standards and the law come into play. You seem to not know or cannot post alot about this matter, so it must have been really bad or you not have to keep it all big secret. Where does any Union draw the line?

Here at AA, AMFA did not start any "crusade" as you call it. Our current sucks, needs to be replaced, which you should be able to see by reading here, and we decided on AMFA and they are hleing us out at our request. Is that hard for you to understand?