IAM Stepping Up campaign

[WorldTraveler]

Can you make the font a little larger so that you can read "THE END OF 2014" and then tell us what day today is?


DL pilots also gave the company significant productivity enhancements and relaxed scope for the company to buy more large RJs.

Those two reasons explain why ONE Of their year's pay raises is larger than other DL employee groups.

you also failed to note - not surprisingly - that every other employee group also received pay raises in all but one year of the pilots' contract that meets or exceeds the levels of the pilots.

 

[700UW]

You really need to learn to read and comprehend, I have posted several times, that the time frame on the 20% is 2012 until the end of 2014, it's been posted several times.

You conveniently skip it every time.

I am going to ask you once again, why will the pilots get 20% in two years, and the non-union employees didn't even come close to that?

Why did the pilots get increases in pension while the non-union employees don't have AA pension and only a 401k?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yes we get that..but this isnt the end of 2014 so they your statement is incorrect.
DL's pilot pensions were terminated while others were not.


More flippant use of data by the union movement's worst spokesmen

 

[737823]

There is no District 143.

Not now but in 2010 there was. DL 142 got a nice windfall of new dues payers in 2011.

Josh

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

 I am going to ask you once again, why will the pilots get 20% in two years, and the non-union employees didn't even come close to that? Why did the pilots get increases in pension while the non-union employees don't have AA pension and only a 401k?

I doubt you'll get an answer from WT, he won't share his notes from the DL board meeting with you ... ... ...
But I'll take a stab at answering your question:  if you want to operate an airline, the pilots are more crucial than the other work groups.  They're the group you can't easily outsource.  The others, especially in today's economy are dime-a-dozen.

 

[Kev3188]

I see your question now. It depends on if it is a disaster like atl was or just Super Bowl Sunday. Pilots biggest sickout day.if I have a history or if I'm just sick It s the same for everybody the difference is that the union guy can have a rep with him. (But they know the score as well as everyone else in that room....it's all documented) . The short answer is nothing. Just like what will happen in NYC probably. Except for those that they can prove took advantage of the circumstances .

Cool, thanks. And I agree about those that try and game the system. WT tried to belittle  me in another thread, but we had a locally agreed to set of objective criteria/data to reference, so that if someone did invoke that language, they had a leg to stand on. Calling in 'cause the Interstate is barricaded is one thing. Calling in where I can hear the national anthem in the background is another...
 
 

Kev, I mean the organizers and people actively involved with the campaign. So I guess a little of both. Wasn't the plan for the combined DL to remain in DL 143?

The INT'l and up had the idea that most NW stations we're locked in (my term), and that CVG & SLC were pretty solid as well. Some of the GC's did too. IMO- and I'll say that again, in case you're getting ready to misquote me- IMO, they focused too much on ATL, at the expense of everywhere else. I would've started with the smallest stations, and worked my way up.
 
 

There is no District 143.

True.
 
 

I think we all know why the vote was even closer last time ! (Please see NMB voting rule changes)

I'm sure it played a part, but maybe not as much as you & I might think? Also, can you & I at least agree that 100% participation should be the goal of any vote?
 
 

Never know! Didn't I see something here about the Pilots eating steak, while everyone else got PBJ's....................really?

Honest question (and same one I asked of Meto): How is Tech Ops handling attendance of those that cannot get to work? Any idea of how it was handled in NYC for the earlier storms? I'm specifically curious about pay protection options for missed time, and attendance issues...
 
 

Yep, I'm sure DL's trying just as hard to keep a union out, as the union is, trying to get in!
So what's the problem?

Nothing, as long as all applicable laws, posted advocacy policies, and so on are abided by.

I also have a real objection to our employer calling the police on their own employees, but maybe that's just me...
 
 

So that the employees won't get raked over the coals by a "union" that behaves more like a greedy corporation, seeking profits, I mean dues, and delivers industry leading contracts, like the one the UA ramp now has...

Luckily for DL employees, any NC on our property would be made up of "actual DL employees."
 
 

every DL and PMNW employee that was in a class that was represented by unions at NW voted and EVERY ONE of those large employee groups voted NO!

There's that qualifying language that I so love! 
 
BTW, are the AMT's not a "large" group?

 

[WorldTraveler]

I doubt you'll get an answer from WT, he won't share his notes from the DL board meeting with you ... ... ...
But I'll take a stab at answering your question:  if you want to operate an airline, the pilots are more crucial than the other work groups.  They're the group you can't easily outsource.  The others, especially in today's economy are dime-a-dozen.

sorry but that is not true.

The reason why DL mechanics got a larger raise for one of the years was because of the large RJ modification clause that they provided.
Other employee groups have so far received comparable pay raises to the pilots in percentage terms in every other year of the pilot agreement.
The DL pilot's pensions were terminated. Other other DL employees, including PMNW pilots, had their pensions frozen. It is a significant difference in pension treatment during BK.



Kev,
yes, you are right. the mechanics did not vote in the representation elections. My question to you is were the replacement mechanics unionized? Whether they were or not, the reason there was no representation vote was because the number of NW mechanics was so much less than the number of DL mechanics.

no, I did not belittle you. I asked and you have yet to answer how 35 (or how many ever cities NW had) locally negotiated agreements with mgmt is superior to what DL offers.

And your statement is that DL has chosen to modify policies at will and without notification. DL's policies are written, Kev, and not some back of the envelope flavor of the day for attendance policies.

While I would like to know what various groups have done, if the information is not publicly available, then I would just as soon not know as to have someone post something that is not meant for public release.

I also asked what other carriers have done and yet to see a response to that either.

Finally, active employees in flight ops and in-flight said there are exception procedures that are used to keep the operation running and to ensure that employees aren't dinged when they try.

There are DL pilots who have posted on other forums that they attempted to reach the airport but did not have success, turned around and returned home, and were released.

I doubt seriously that any other employee group faced any different scenario.

Since you asked the question, how do your local personnel procedures record an employee absence should they attempt to come to work but be unable due to weather or governmental actions that are outside of their control?

meto,
I absolutely agree with your prioritization of how DL runs the operation.... reading the contract and making sure every "right" is met is a distant priority compared to employee and passenger safety and following the law.
Other airlines and labor groups do not see have not seen it the same way and some certainly still do not.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
yes, you are right. the mechanics did not vote in the representation elections.

Indeed. You might wanna go back and correct the statement about all "large" groups *voting* no.

no, I did not belittle you. I asked and you have yet to answer how 35 (or how many ever cities NW had) locally negotiated agreements with mgmt is superior to what DL offers.

There were 40. And it's exactly what you're doing.

And again, the language in the CBA was uniform. The objective criteria we agreed on locally simply provided a standard platform for everyone to abide by. 1-3" of snow may be a sign of the apocalypse in ATL, but where I was at the time, it's a normal day from about Nov.-Mar. You're so ate up on trying to prove me wrong that you've missed the part where I actually agree with you & Meto both. Bummer.

And your statement is that DL has chosen to modify policies at will and without notification. DL's policies are written...

...They sure are.

...Except when they're interpreted (or modified) however anyone sees fit.

Kev, and not some back of the envelope flavor of the day for attendance policies.

Again with this? I get that you're just being obtuse, but I'm really sorry I wasted the bandwidth tried to actually side with you that labor/mgmt. can work together (even within the the bounds of a CBA).

While I would like to know what various groups have done, if the information is not publicly available, then I would just as soon not know as to have someone post something that is not meant for public release.

Ironically, even as a retiree, you have access to the SAME data sets I do, do you not?

I also asked what other carriers have done and yet to see a response to that either.

That's 'cause the thread you asked in specifically noted DL in ATL. Period. Full stop.

There are DL pilots who have posted on other forums that they attempted to reach the airport but did not have success, turned around and returned home, and were released.

Great.

I doubt seriously that any other employee group faced any different scenario.

Fair enough, but that entails ignoring a significant portion of the employee base. Hopefully, Baba's right, and IFS does right by it's people.

Since you asked the question, how do your local personnel procedures record an employee absence should they attempt to come to work but be unable due to weather or governmental actions that are outside of their control?

It's an accountable occurrence...

meto,
I absolutely agree with your prioritization of how DL runs the operation.... reading the contract and making sure every "right" is met is a distant priority compared to employee and passenger safety and following the law.
Other airlines and labor groups do not see have not seen it the same way and some certainly still do not.

My experience has been very different.

You may have missed it, so I'll ask again; can you share what union you were in, and how that has shaped your perspective to make such statements?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
thanks for your response.

I can't edit the post in which I said that all large groups at DL voted to exclude the mechanics so I will say here that you are correct and I would like to note that the DL mechanics including those who joined DL from NW did not vote in part because the size of the NW mechanic force was too small to trigger an election, even if they were unionized.

You didn't answer the question if NW mechanics were unionized post AMFA.

I don't doubt that mgmt and labor can work together and have noted that the IAM and NW had a more cooperative relationship during BK than other groups. Should I dig up those quote as well?

What I do object to and you said it again, is that DL's HR policies are capricious and subject to whatever interpretation whoever you happen to encounter comes up with at that moment and with that employee.

That is simply an inaccurate characterization. If you want to continue to believe it and post it, then you shouldn't be surprised if I challenge you.

There are certain parts of DL's systems that are not accessible remotely regardless of employee status which is the only way that non-active DL employees can access DL systems.

This might be the first major weather event for ATL this year but it is hardly the first time that DL has faced a significant operational challenge that has affected DL employees' ability to get to work.

I would like to hear if publicly available information says otherwise, but DL has a history of taking care of its employees who in turn take care of its customers.

As for my experience with unions, I watched the unionized airline industry from the vantage point of 30 feet down the terminal and across the same ramp.

Some of the most adamant DL employees against unionization came from carriers that are no longer here in part because of labor-mgmt conflict.

 

[Kev3188]

Yes.
 
There was no "post AMFA," only "post strike."

 

[southwind]

 
 


 
 


 
 


 
 


 


 
 

 
 
BTW, are the AMT's not a "large" group?
 
 
Yes we are and have yet to hear even one mention the word union! And I doubt even the ex-NW are interested in one, after what AMFA and the IAM did!

 

[Kev3188]

What I do object to and you said it again, is that DL's HR policies are capricious and subject to whatever interpretation whoever you happen to encounter comes up with at that moment and with that employee.

That is simply an inaccurate characterization. If you want to continue to believe it and post it, then you shouldn't be surprised if I challenge you.

The policies may not be, but the interpretations of them sure can be.

And really; how would you know? You're no longer here...

 

[Kev3188]

BTW, are the AMT's not a "large" group?
 
 
Yes we are and have yet to hear even one mention the word union! And I doubt even the ex-NW are interested in one, after what AMFA and the IAM did!

Of course you're group is large. No one said they weren't.

Given what DL was offering compared to the shell of a CBA AMFA had left, i can't say I blame anyone for not being interested. As I've said before, a decert, regroup, and perhaps try again once merged seemed the best course of action at the time.

That said, you not hearing "one mention" of organizing, doesn't mean it's not out there... The world doesn't begin and end in your back shop, you know...

 

[WorldTraveler]

The policies may not be, but the interpretations of them sure can be.

And really; how would you know? You're no longer here...

translation "I am the only ACS person who participates on this forum with regularity and I don't want anyone challenging my opinion that DL is capricious even if I have failed to demonstrate my charge on this forum."

 

[737823]

The INT'l and up had the idea that most NW stations we're locked in (my term), and that CVG & SLC were pretty solid as well. Some of the GC's did too. IMO- and I'll say that again, in case you're getting ready to misquote me- IMO, they focused too much on ATL, at the expense of everywhere else. I would've started with the smallest stations, and worked my way up.

Well once again it seems the international was out of step with the membership and did not connect well with the unorganized DL employees. If the attitude with the ramp/Blue Notes Organizing is the same as World Class F/As it will be no surprise to see the organizing effort fail yet again.

Josh