IAM Stepping Up campaign

[Kev3188]

The value of a union should be to hold the company's feet to the fire when times are bad...

No, the role of a union is to hold both sides accountable all the time.

 

No, negotiations are based on industry average.

No, they're based on what the employees in question determine is important to them. What may be a burning issue at AA may not be here, or vice versa.

 

There is nothing that says that DL has any obligation to continue pushing its employees to the top of the industry.

Absent a collective bargaining agent, there's also nothing stopping them from starting to push downward.
 

in your Utopia, DL people will just get adding to what they have but reality is far different.

My "Utopia" is one where policies/procedures are consistently followed, and one where labor & capital stand as equal partners.

You're correct that the current reality is far different.
 
 

You bemoan the churn of contracts which AA and UA will most certainly do but you can't seem to accept that each carrier has no choice but to be competitive with others on costs - which are well known via DOT data - and that means that you either cut stations and contract them out or you provide lower paid staff to make incremental employees more cost efficient.

I get downward pressure and the need to be cost efficient. Just because I wear a uniform everyday and am pro labor doesn't mean I'm blind to economic reality. That said, IMO, the company has overreached, and now these same programs have instead become regressive. With no counterbalance, there's really nothing to stop that from continuing.

 

[swamt]

700, The reason DL employees do not get retro pay is because they are not union.  The reason SWA mechanics do not get retro pay is directly due to the mechanics allowing it to flow past them. EVERY single union group should enforce retro pay and keep it active at all times.  If the company is allowed to escape from retro pay, then they (the company) is allowed to delay, delay and continuously delay and drag out nego's until it ends up in their favor where all the new hires brake down and vote yes.  I do admit we lost our last retro pay, but it will not pass us by this time...

 

[WorldTraveler]

what?

How is a non-contract employee entitled to retro pay when they were never in negotiations?

The company gave them the pay raise when the company saw fit.

You can't argue on the one hand that the employees are at will and then argue that they are due a penalty from the company for not giving them something which the employees had no hand in obtaining in the first place

Let's be crystal clear that DL employees have obtained more and larger increases in compensation than any other group of airline employees in the US.

It is precisely because DL has been incredibly responsive to the concerns of its employees - far more so and faster than any union could have done - that DL employees say they are no better off with a union.

No union can claim that could do a better job because they cannot.

and, yes, Kevin, negotiations in ANY business relationship are based on the norm or average for the product.
You don't negotiate a price on a car because your needs are different than someone else's. You negotiate the deal that the market will permit and the market at that point is defined by the knowledge the seller has of other transactions and his/her willingness to accept what you offer.

The difference between the way DL operates with non-contract employees is that DL mgmt. identifies what the market is, including benefits, and has the choice of either paying at or above the market, risk losing people if they don't, or roll out the welcome mat to unions.

The employees of Delta Air Lines have CONSISTENTLY said via the ballot box that they consider what they obtain from the company to be in line with the market or else they are not willing to believe it can be improved by a union.

There is no other way to interpret the voting results that have clearly and consistently been recorded.

 

[Kev3188]

The company gave them the pay raise when the company saw fit.

Bingo.

Now what happens when the company "sees fit" to unilaterally change something for the worse?

 

[WorldTraveler]

what happens when a company decides to not increase pay and its unions? We have just talked about retro pay and the fact that union members here admit that companies don't negotiate in good faith and you want to argue that unions can actually force a company to pay employees what they aren't willing to do?

get your head of the clouds, Kevin.

Your theory is great for children's books but comes nowhere close to the way the real world works.

If you could only get your feet on the ground, you could be a potent force for change - you have SO much else going for you.

Such a shame, really, to let all of those abilities go to waste.

 

[700UW]

con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective
adjective: condescending
1.
having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
"she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending"

synonyms:

patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty, haughty; More

 

[WorldTraveler]

what is condescending is being unable to discuss genuine topics because some people get offended and lock threads - even while threatening on the forum that they will do it.

if people make stupid remarks, they should expect to be called out for them.

IF they don't realize how naïve their comments are, then it is no surprise that they fail to achieve their goals.

 

[Kev3188]

My reality not reflecting your narrative =/= having my head in the clouds. I'm passionate about working for positive change in the workplace. You can make fun of that if you want, but you (general) can't really argue against it.

 

[700UW]

get your head of the clouds, Kevin.

Your theory is great for children's books but comes nowhere close to the way the real world works.

If you could only get your feet on the ground, you could be a potent force for change - you have SO much else going for you.

Such a shame, really, to let all of those abilities go to waste.

 
 

 
con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective
adjective: condescending
1.
having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
"she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending"
synonyms: patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty, haughty; More
 

 
 

what is condescending is being unable to discuss genuine topics because some people get offended and lock threads - even while threatening on the forum that they will do it.

if people make stupid remarks, they should expect to be called out for them.

IF they don't realize how naïve their comments are, then it is no surprise that they fail to achieve their goals.

 

[eolesen]

what is condescending is being unable to discuss genuine topics because some people get offended and lock threads

Oh, so now the moderators are wrong for doing their job?...

There's a world of difference between discussing topics, and having a toxic case of digital courage.

 

[WorldTraveler]

My reality not reflecting your narrative =/= having my head in the clouds. I'm passionate about working for positive change in the workplace. You can make fun of that if you want, but you (general) can't really argue against it.

great, then do it. Don't rail against DL's personnel policies and paint a picture of how many dissatisfied employees DL has and how much they want change and then stand alone on this board as one of the few DL employee voices for a union - while SUBCONTRACTING out the talking points to a former US lav boy.

This campaign isn't a Delta employee campaign. It is an IAM campaign and the title - which 700 proudly threw up there - validates it.

DL employees aren't interested in following the example of the industry around them.

DL people, quite frankly, are too proud (yes, arrogant) to be associated with unions that have repeatedly failed to deliver what they have promised - implicit or not - to DL's peer employees.

You talk about how DL people want DL solutions but then repeatedly compare what DL employees have to other airlines - or allow your mouthpiece here to do it.

Show us some creativity in what you suggest for real DL solutions... not loosy goosy ethereal talk.


If the world you want matters to you, then you have to put for the effort to build it, put your neck on the line to do so, and then convince your peers that it is worth their while to give up the security they have with DL's current personnel system and change if for what is clearly a high risk, contentious environment that is not delivering anywhere close to what DL employees have now.

E, if the mods were doing their job, they wouldn't allow endless debate on union issues while shutting down business issues. The simple fact is that this board is overseen by a few supporters in the labor movement who have been completely ineffective at implementing change in their own environment so they vent here....

If they were half as effective at making change, the union movement would be signing up people by the scores - but it is not. Instead, the union movement continues to lose membership and the unionization campaign is nothing more than an attempt for corrupt national unions to try to replace the revenue which they are losing as Americans continue to say they are not interested in being in unions and as companies consolidate reduce jobs.

Unions might have made a difference at one time and they still might be able to... but you, Kevin, need to put the theory about labor which you seem to be so capable of spouting into reality that wins for DL employees.

Good luck with that.

 

[Kev3188]

This campaign isn't a Delta employee campaign. It is an IAM campaign and the title - which 700 proudly threw up there - validates it.

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

Good luck with that.

Luck has nothing to do with it...

 

[southwind]

It's mostly an ex-NW employee campaign.

From the last results, might want to depend on luck...especially since the NMB changed the rules to benefit unions and that didn't help!

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

if the moderators were doing their job, they wouldn't allow endless debate on union issues while shutting down business issues. The simple fact is that this board is overseen by a few supporters in the labor movement who have been completely ineffective at implementing change in their own environment...

Really? Now it is the moderators fault for your being condescending and narcissistic.

Maybe that is why the threads get locked as soon as you get in too deep. You should really look into the mirror for the root of the problem here.

 

[700UW]

Really? Now it is the moderators fault for your being condescending and narcissistic.

Maybe that is why the threads get locked as soon as you get in too deep. You should really look into the mirror for the root of the problem here.

Best post ever!