IAM Fleet Service topic

[pit_till_death]

Joe,

Sometimes life hits you with certain little "bumps in the road" and when that is the case, yes I have been known to work both of my days off and over 16 hours in a day. Do I do it weekly, no I don't, but when I need a little extra, it's there......and double time is certainly better than time and a half.


You should be thankful that you never need to work that much.

giantfan,

First, I want to congratulate you on your superbowl win. Had one a couple of years ago (5th) and feels great.....Just something to think about: The company, right now as it stands, is saving more $$$ with the west at $15/change and the east at $17/change than it would if this t/a gets approved. If the company doesn't need to integrate our workgroups to transition for a merger, then why other than to eliminate the coc (which many believe is worthless) would they keep coming back to the table?????

 

[JoeDirt]

GF
How often does the opportunity arise where you would be able to work over 16 hours in one day. Actually it would be 17 hours because of the two 30 minute breaks. There is also the fact that the equalization of OT as it stands now will be gone and if someone else had a "bump in the road" and needed the OT it would go to the person with the least amount of hours actually worked.

 

[Hadenough]

giantfan,

First, I want to congratulate you on your superbowl win. Had one a couple of years ago (5th) and feels great.....Just something to think about: The company, right now as it stands, is saving more $$$ with the west at $15/change and the east at $17/change than it would if this t/a gets approved. If the company doesn't need to integrate our workgroups to transition for a merger, then why other than to eliminate the coc (which many believe is worthless) would they keep coming back to the table?????

Answering this goes against their reasoning for voting for this T/A.

 

[giantfan]

pit til--

First off thanks about my G-Men who knew they had it in them!!!

Ok first....I do agree with you that the co. is saving lots of $$ by paying us crap. What I believe is that the company would like to see the east and west come together to "tidy up" for a smoother merger transition. I do believe we will merge, most likely United.

What I don't believe is that they NEED to have Fleet come together to do this. Would it be easier for the co...sure but they don't need to do it and I feel our CIC language will be shredded up by lawyers before we ever see snapbacks. Would they like the CIC out...again yes, but if left in they will fight us again on it. Is it leverage.....maybe? But how much I guess is the main difference between you & me.

But again with today's economic conditions and Fleet considered "unskilled" labor I can't see getting anything better than what we got. We just aren't as powerful a group as the pilots or even the mechanics. And again nor did we give back as much as the mechanics. So I say take the $$ now and see what happens with UA.

Joe....I am not debating my work schedule with you any longer.

 

[JoeDirt]

GF
My point is we would be very hard pressed to actually see any double time pay what so ever. Even though its possible to get a few hours of double time getting it would be a rarity.

 

[Hadenough]

Giantfan
Are you admitting that the company wants something from us. If so do you think they will stop coming back until they get what they want.

 

[pit_till_death]

pit til--

First off thanks about my G-Men who knew they had it in them!!!

Ok first....I do agree with you that the co. is saving lots of $$ by paying us crap. What I believe is that the company would like to see the east and west come together to "tidy up" for a smoother merger transition. I do believe we will merge, most likely United.

What I don't believe is that they NEED to have Fleet come together to do this. Would it be easier for the co...sure but they don't need to do it and I feel our CIC language will be shredded up by lawyers before we ever see snapbacks. Would they like the CIC out...again yes, but if left in they will fight us again on it. Is it leverage.....maybe? But how much I guess is the main difference between you & me.

But again with today's economic conditions and Fleet considered "unskilled" labor I can't see getting anything better than what we got. We just aren't as powerful a group as the pilots or even the mechanics. And again nor did we give back as much as the mechanics. So I say take the $$ now and see what happens with UA.

Joe....I am not debating my work schedule with you any longer.

giantfan,

Back in the late 70's/early 80's top out was around what we are making now (the east). With inflation and cost of living, that figure has got to be at least $20-$23/hr. My question is this----Are we any more unskilled now than we were back then? If anything we are more skilled due to the new planes and the increase in equiptment we are required to use now. Even with the economy as bad as it is, and the high fuel cost, which by the way, the effects are assumed by consumers as well as airlines, this t/a is not only below industry standard, it's not even equal to what we were earning almost 30 years ago.
What is your take on this.

 

[P. REZ]

Freedom,

I like that you did your homework on Bloch's decision on COC about the stock. However, the best argument on why the COC language is dead is where there has to be proof of a concerted effort by one investor or a group of investors to act as one in the purchase. People, this language is dead when it comes to that piece. Every merger has each investor coming in separately to grab their piece of the pie. For instance, Boeing and Airbus will come in and try to make a deal, and then Rolls Royce engines, and then BF Goodrich and so on and so on. All the while none of them act together in the purchase but separately.

Most of the scenarios brought up on this site by no votes are valid and I think yes votes should really look at everything that is being said to make a sound decision. For instance, if you get that $10,000 dollar a year raise but 6 months later are furloughed or have to transfer to another station to keep your job, would you be a yes vote?

Conversely, if you are a no vote you should also look at everything that is being posted. I think some no votes are bitter towards this company and are voting no despite what is put out there. If we merge with UA/AA would you be happy being stuck with the wages you currently have for 2 to 3 more years while another integration process occurs?

Really look at everything because it will bite you in the a$$ later if you don't. This is still a POS TA, I am supporting the New Direction and I am a Yes vote.


Respectfully,

P. REZ

 

[JoeDirt]

One of the problems I have with the T/A is the 2% annual raises. If a person is topped out any gains seen in wages will quickly be eaten up by the rising cost of living. We would be in the same place we are now in a matter of a few years. In the past 8 years there has been only one year where it was below 2% and that was in 2002. The average over that period is close to 3% and this year the average is over 4% so far for the year.

 

[Jester]

giantfan,

Back in the late 70's/early 80's top out was around what we are making now (the east). With inflation and cost of living, that figure has got to be at least $20-$23/hr. My question is this----Are we any more unskilled now than we were back then? If anything we are more skilled due to the new planes and the increase in equiptment we are required to use now. Even with the economy as bad as it is, and the high fuel cost, which by the way, the effects are assumed by consumers as well as airlines, this t/a is not only below industry standard, it's not even equal to what we were earning almost 30 years ago.
What is your take on this.

PIT,

Three words... "Civilian Aviation Board" (CAB).

They were a government agency with the authority to set prices between all interstate segments, and provided the rights for airlines to fly city pairs. The CAB insured reasonable profits by having the passengers pay even in nominal dollars more in the mid-70's than presently on transcon flights. In essence, it was expensive to fly then. Wages for airline employees were generally fairly decent because what became a cost-plus pricing system. The airlines were de-regulated in the late 70's and airlines were free to charge what they wanted and to begin flying cities pairs as desired. The CAB lost its purpose and was one of the few government agencies that was closed.

It is a far different economic environment today for the airlines than when the CAB was around, thus ideas of wages being inflation adjusted to today's dollars would be folly.

So Recounts Jester.

 

[cltrat]

on this doubletime does anyone really believe as shady as OT is called that you will not be the last person they call on your off days?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Sorry, but I have to interject again. Not to beat a dead horse, but can someone please provide a factually based argument as to what exactly industry average is. Not just continental and swa. I would like to see a table of salaries of the majors. In my opinion, industry average should be an average payscale derived from a collection of all the majors and dividing it by the number surveyed. That would equal, industry average. Tim, I like you buddy but you keep on comparing us to co. I have a sneaky suspicion that the scale for the ta is right about in the middle. Which doesn't equal: lowest in the industry. I know swissport and serviceair countrywide have more employees than us, get less benefits, are paid substantionally less than us, and yet they are still a major part of OUR industry. I kinda agree about some of the other arguments but to say we will be lowest paid in the industry is misleading. I will happily appollogize if I am ultmately proven wrong, but I want to see a comparison first. Not just to a few select carriers but the industry as a whole. If I am right, lets drop this pay part and move along to other issues in this ta. Sound fair?

This is for anyone to comment on.

When I measure industry standards I don't recognize contracting units like butler aviation, serviceair etc. Same with mechanics, I compare airline employees with airline employees.
nonetheless, here is the rankings based on pay and benefits.

1. Southwest ramp. $24hr, best of all benefits also so I won't go on.

2. American $23.55 lead pay [wage plus longevity], ramp pay $21.46 [wage plus longevity]. Holiday pay at overtime rates, 6 weeks of vacation, other benefits also.

3. United Airlines 6 weeks of vacation. $20.61 [wage and longevity], Double time pay on all holiday hours worked, profit sharing, 8 holidays, 80% sick pay.

4. Continental $20.43 [wage and longevity], 5 weeks of vacation, full sick pay, lead pay $1.75, best profit sharing in the industry [this year's checks were between $2,500- $5,000+], yearly performance bonus[this year was $755 per employee]. Small health care contribution rates.

5. Northwest. Full double time on all days. profit sharing, very good scope includes 40 stations and 10 cargo stations. 6 weeks of vacation, company paid long term disability, 9 year wage scale with starting wage at $10.74 and top out at $18.53. 75% sick pay. I'm pretty sure they have 1.5 holiday pay but I'll have to check

6. Delta. very good profit sharing [5.5% of personal earnings for last year] , paid sick time, given company stock also. $18.28 top out. Had 10 holidays last I checked but not sure now. ALso had shift differ and double time last I checked. Don't pay union dues.

7. US AIRWAYS Tentative agreement. No profit sharing. No stock. $19 top out. 4 weeks vacation, 50% sick pay, health care monthly contributions up to $320 per family, part time up to $640, no shift differ, Double time only after 8 hours on first day off, no holiday pay, $500 in union dues per year [when compared with delta]. No short term or long term company paid disability plans.

at any rate, those are the top 7 airlines and this TA is at the bottom but probably close enough to Delta that it could 'squeek in' for a tie if Delta lost any Holidays.

Contract information that Canale doesn't want you to see or have
regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Rat
That is the question no one seems to want to address.

Why were the talks initiated in the first place?

Here is another pertinent question that no one wants to answer, (especially canale). Why is canale so hellbent for classification seniority over DOH seniority?

 

[robbedagain]

Here is another pertinent question that no one wants to answer, (especially canale). Why is canale so hellbent for classification seniority over DOH seniority?

most likely when a merger takes place the US Fleet Employees would be stapled to the bottom and end up much like TWA did after AA brought them

 

[pit_till_death]

PIT,

Three words... "Civilian Aviation Board" (CAB).

They were a government agency with the authority to set prices between all interstate segments, and provided the rights for airlines to fly city pairs. The CAB insured reasonable profits by having the passengers pay even in nominal dollars more in the mid-70's than presently on transcon flights. In essence, it was expensive to fly then. Wages for airline employees were generally fairly decent because what became a cost-plus pricing system. The airlines were de-regulated in the late 70's and airlines were free to charge what they wanted and to begin flying cities pairs as desired. The CAB lost its purpose and was one of the few government agencies that was closed.

It is a far different economic environment today for the airlines than when the CAB was around, thus ideas of wages being inflation adjusted to today's dollars would be folly.

So Recounts Jester.

Back in the late 70's/early 80's top out was around what we are making now (the east).


This was my quote Jester....I was speaking about AFTER de-regulation.