Hub Closure Sweepstakes

[700UW]

Actually US has one of the highest yields to Europe:
 
Legend is:
Airline - RASM - CASM - Yield cents - Profit/Loss Margin %

Atlantic
AA - 17.75 - 14.94 - 15.17 - 18.8%
DL - 14.95 - 12.13 - 14.24 - 23.2.2%
UA - 15.74 - 14.08 - 15.24 - 11.8%
US - 17.03 - 13.85 - 13.98 - 22.9%
 
So US is 2nd only behind DL in profit percentage, this data is from the third quarter of 2013.
 
So WT your information is not correct, this is from the DOT's data.

 

[WorldTraveler]

given that the 3rd quarter is the largest quarter for int'l travel, you can't throw it out just because you saw numbers you liked in the 4th quarter.

US, like DL, increases its flying in the summer. AA tried to do it but didn't get the same type of bump as US and DL have done, in part because DL has alot of market presence in the markets where it adds seasonal capacity and US does have the cost advantage.

AA, in contrast, has built its TATL network around LHR which is less seasonal and is also higher yield on a year round basis.

It doesn't invalidate my comments because the scenario is inverted in one of the two quarters when the Atlantic is at its weakest.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Actually US has one of the highest yields to Europe:
 
Legend is:
Airline - RASM - CASM - Yield cents - Profit/Loss Margin %

Atlantic
AA - 17.75 - 14.94 - 15.17 - 18.8%
DL - 14.95 - 12.13 - 14.24 - 23.2.2%
UA - 15.74 - 14.08 - 15.24 - 11.8%
US - 17.03 - 13.85 - 13.98 - 22.9%
 
So US is 2nd only behind DL in profit percentage, this data is from the third quarter of 2013.
 
So WT your information is not correct, this is from the DOT's data.

may I suggest you read the data directly from the source (Aviation Daily) and not what someone pastes into airliners.net. Every quarter, they incorrectly type information or else intentionally modify data from the chart.

The DOT directly calculates margins on a chart called "US network carriers financial results by region" and their operating margins differ considerably from the calculated margins that are put in a.net.

DL's operating margin on the Atlantic is 25.5% followed by US at 16.7, AA at 15.8, and UA at 10.6%

 

[FWAAA]

Actually US has one of the highest yields to Europe:
 
Legend is:
Airline - RASM - CASM - Yield cents - Profit/Loss Margin %

Atlantic
AA - 17.75 - 14.94 - 15.17 - 18.8%
DL - 14.95 - 12.13 - 14.24 - 23.2.2%
UA - 15.74 - 14.08 - 15.24 - 11.8%
US - 17.03 - 13.85 - 13.98 - 22.9%
 
So US is 2nd only behind DL in profit percentage, this data is from the third quarter of 2013.
 
So WT your information is not correct, this is from the DOT's data.

Uh, no, your chart above shows that US had the lowest yield across the Atlantic, consistent with its industry-lagging TATL yields since at least 1995.  . 13.98,  the US yield, is the lowest on your chart.  Once again, you're attempting to correct someone when you're wrong, which is par for the course around here.     
 
My earlier post said "full year 2013" as Parker disclosed the full-year (and 4th quarter) numbers last week in the earnings release, and once again,  AA's TATL and LATAM yields and PRASM were higher than those of US.    Parker said so in the earnings release.   

 

[FWAAA]

given that the 3rd quarter is the largest quarter for int'l travel, you can't throw it out just because you saw numbers you liked in the 4th quarter.

US, like DL, increases its flying in the summer. AA tried to do it but didn't get the same type of bump as US and DL have done, in part because DL has alot of market presence in the markets where it adds seasonal capacity and US does have the cost advantage.

AA, in contrast, has built its TATL network around LHR which is less seasonal and is also higher yield on a year round basis.

It doesn't invalidate my comments because the scenario is inverted in one of the two quarters when the Atlantic is at its weakest.

Were you kicked in the head by a mule as a child?  Did your mother drop you on your head?    Have you caught something in Brazil like mad cow disease that's hurting your cognitive abilities?    
 
I'm not comparing 4th quarter numbers, and I couldn't care less about the third quarter numbers.   My post concerned full-year 2013.   The seasonal nature of some markets  (and how different markets have differing seasons) is why I'm looking at full-year numbers.   Full-year numbers remove the seasonal variations.

 

[LD3]

Wow FWAAA who pissed in wheaties today, usually your posts are enjoyable to read, today your a (deleted by moderator)

 

[WorldTraveler]

well, look who resorts to name calling and belittling techniques when HIS story is challenged.

I get your point and I know what Parker said and I agree with your general premise.

But I don't agree with your incessant "everything that US does is crap and everything that AA does is gold" esp. when there is data that shows otherwise.

3rd quarter data is the most recent that is available and it is published on an equal basis for all carriers. There is no published comparison on equal terms for the 4th quarter. When it is available, you feel free to share it with us.

Until then, what I said is accurate. US in the 3rd quarter generated RASMs higher than AA on the Atlantic.

As much as it absolutely frosts you to admit it, US in the peak season does a better job of generating revenue than AA does.

LD3,
FWAAA is realizing that the person who he (FWAAA) has lambasted for years now holds the keys to the kingdom and some of those sacred cows that AA has had might no longer be protected species anymore.

Doesn't change that Parker has turned US into a very profitable airline and he will do the same thing at AA. TO argue that he will use the same strategies that it took to turn US around is a short-sighted. he will build on what has worked for sure but he is capable of looking around and figuring out what strategies have worked for others and doing the same.

Case in point is ATL which Parker has tried to use as a model for CLT to the greatest degree possible.

 

[FWAAA]

.3rd quarter data is the most recent that is available and it is published on an equal basis for all carriers. There is no published comparison on equal terms for the 4th quarter. When it is available, you feel free to share it with us.

World, I provided a link to the full-year (and fourth quarter numbers) for AA and US;  they were in the AA earnings release last week.   Obviously, the numbers don't include UA or DL, but when I say that US had lower yield and PRASM on TATL and LATAM routes in 2013 than did AA, why would I need to look at UA and DL numbers?   I'm dumbfounded that a comparison between AA and US requires data from UA or DL.  Could you please edumacate me on why a comparison between AA and US requires other airline data?   I concede (on a standing basis) that DL is superior.   😀

 

[700UW]

A profit percentage of 22.9%, not a loss, only one making more is DL.

 

[FWAAA]

A profit percentage of 22.9%, not a loss, only one making more is DL.

Nobody is disputing the very high profits of old US with very low paid pilots.   Thing is, those pilots received huge raises in December, retroactive to February.   My point to LD3 was that CLT and PHL have been great under those low wages.   Those low wages are history, and thus PHL and CLT may not be so profitable under the new higher wages.   Cut and paste irrelevant material that isn't responsive to that point all day long if you wish.   
 
But the entire discussion has gone over your head:   AA's TATL yields and PRASM for 2013 were substantially higher than US.  If you don't believe that, then read the AA earnings release from last week:
 
http://hub.aa.com/en/nr/pressrelease/american-airlines-group-reports-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-2013-financial-results

 

[WorldTraveler]

World, I provided a link to the full-year (and fourth quarter numbers) for AA and US;  they were in the AA earnings release last week.   Obviously, the numbers don't include UA or DL, but when I say that US had lower yield and PRASM on TATL and LATAM routes in 2013 than did AA, why would I need to look at UA and DL numbers?   I'm dumbfounded that a comparison between AA and US requires data from UA or DL.  Could you please edumacate me on why a comparison between AA and US requires other airline data?   I concede (on a standing basis) that DL is superior.   😀

first of all, the chart that AA published in that format is so screwed up in its presentation that I didn't even bother trying to match up columns that are misaligned.

But your point is true that AA does show higher yields than US... but it also doesn't include profitability by region.

The DOT data does. And it shows that US does generate profits on par if not higher than what AA generates.

And as much as it frosts you to see it, the reason for including competitive data is because it does contain profitability and it also contains revenue data presented in the same standard for other carriers.

You can argue that AA generates higher yields but that is meaningless without seeing costs. AA hasn't lacked for an ability to generate decent revenues. It does lack for being able to generate revenues that generate comparable profits based on AA's cost structure.

The Atlantic was strong in the summer. AA did well but so did US. And DL for the reasons I noted generated the highest profit margin. I told you why and I also told you that new AA might find some of the same basis for doing what DL has done. If you don't want to see competitive comparisons, then don't bring up the topic, esp. when you want to compare AA to US and then argue that they can't do anything right.

They absolutely can and the evidence is there to show it.


As much as you want to keep arguing US this and AA that, they are one company and it will be harder and hard to argue what one side is doing at the expense of the other.

Further, if alot of US' costs are going to go up, and I think they will, it hurts the overall revenues of the Group. AA simply can't find enough growth to replace what US is going to lose. Rejoicing at what won't work for US anymore doesn't cut it if you are at all interested in the success of the combined company and it is one combined company now.
 

Actually US has one of the highest yields to Europe:
 
Legend is:
Airline - RASM - CASM - Yield cents - Profit/Loss Margin %

Atlantic
AA - 17.75 - 14.94 - 15.17 - 18.8%
DL - 14.95 - 12.13 - 14.24 - 23.2.2%
UA - 15.74 - 14.08 - 15.24 - 11.8%
US - 17.03 - 13.85 - 13.98 - 22.9%
 
So US is 2nd only behind DL in profit percentage, this data is from the third quarter of 2013.
 
So WT your information is not correct, this is from the DOT's data.

you may have come to the same conclusion but there are multiple typos in the data you copied which is NOT DOT data. It is a poor attempt and you can tell they are typos because one digit in a number is incorrect while 3 others are not.

Read the Aviation Daily article I cited to see the accurate data.

 

[LD3]

I am not sure how it went over my head, i was pointing out that the low cost culture was starting to bit the airline and the airport in he ass.The airline was not happy with the service it was receiving from the airport and that projects were being reconsidered, all in all, CLT is still a very cheap airport to operate out of. The revenue arguments you are having are with WT and 700. WT, if FWA was offended I am sure he knows where the report button is.....he probably got a chuckle out of it.....

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't think there is any doubt that US' strategy of being a low cost producer has hit its limits. Parker himself said that US had very limited growth potential given that it has become a niche network carrier based on using low costs to win in connecting markets because of its smaller size. that was a prime justification for the merger.

My point with the "revenue arguments" is simply that other carriers have used strategies more successfully than AA has esp. with regard to pursuing the highest revenue. AA has access to good int'l revenue but it doesn't do near as well domestically compared to peers and it also hasn't done as good of a job with costs.
Arguing that someone else doesn't do as well because they don't measure up to AA's strategy is invalid unless the measure is profitability which is the only reason a for profit company exists.

And the basis for knowing how well you are doing is by looking at comparable data across peers. It matters nothing to argue how well you do if you aren't willing to look at yourself side by side with your competitors - and that doesn't matter whether you are talking about being a trumpet player in the high school band or being a global airline. Using accurate and standard data is the way to make that comparison and make it valid.

 

[dash8roa]

This topic has strayed very far from the original and is getting very acrid. Its going to take a year or two before major adjustments are made as to hubs staying or going or being downsized.PHX will probably be the first to go as DFW and LAX are in larger population areas.
As was mentioned, the higher wages will mean some changes so as to maintain profit margins. On the East coast, JFK is still the most valuable international hub and if some slots can be adjusted, it will be the largest gateway hub.
CLT may lose some South American routes and but will retain its domestic routes and perhaps add some to the North East and West coast. Just my take on the hub situation at the new AA.
Quality of life at CLT and RDU areas is a non issue as far as the airline is concerned.
I was sorry to see RDU lose its hub status, those AA flight banks were in and out in a hurry, but it was still basically a North-South route operation.
PHL is still operationally constrained with only three jet capable runways and no room to grow. Taxi waiting times are very long at times and is prone to many ATC delays.
Now we sit back and wait to see how all of this pans out.

 

[Black Magic]

Too many armchair quarterbacks on this forum.  I highly doubt CLT is going away..other than ATL it is the only "true" southeastern hub in the nation.