Haven't Heard About the Extra 4% in Equity to be Held Aside?

[Bob Owens]

Yes the stand against Frank Lorenzo was absolutely devastating to him and he was never truly able to recover.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/news/companies/1010/gallery.where_are_they_now.fortune/12.html

My friends father was a mechanic for Eastern. Edward Bustos was his name. He got a job after Eastern working for FedEx scanning packages that the drivers couldn't do on their routes. He was making $8 per hour. I know this because at the time I was a driver making $14 in the same station, JRA. I was 23 years old. I never could call him Ed like he said I could. He was always Mr Bustos to me.

Well eventually I'm not sure what happened but he killed himself years later. I'm friends with his daughter Gina on FB.

100% true story.

My brothers friend had plenty of money, yet he killed himself as well. 100% true story. How many people at AA have killed themselves since 2003? 
 
As far as Lorenzo, yes he is still rich, but for people like him its not just the money, its the power. Either way, I'm glad he is out of the industry. 

 

[WeAAsles]

That's a quote I heard from a Fleet Service President as to why they were so quick to accept concessions during the BK negotiations. Don't believe me ask Steve Gukelberger who heard it. IIRC not too many of the older EAL guys or Pan Am from their Fleet Service were hired by AA. I know that many Fleet guys had education that would land them other jobs but they chose to stay, one former 501 official who was a FSC used to boast that he had a teaching degree and a Batchelors Degree therefore he should be earning more than mechanics. I ask if a teaching degree was required to do the job he was paid for, if not then why should he expect to get paid for it. They stayed because the wages were pretty good, they should have been willing to keep them that way. Maybe jobs may not have been available in their chosen field and when they did become available maybe they weren't willing or able to take the paycut and start at entry wages again, but things changed and they were trapped, the guy with the teaching degree retired as a FSC, I've never said that any other worker should accept concessions because I'm concerned AA will liquidate, other people shouldn't tell us we should either.
 
While one could argue that the same could be said for mechanics becoming trapped but the point is the skills we learned at AA are portable and desired and the likelyhood of getting hired at another carrier remain high even into our 60s, so no we should not be willing to accept the worst of everything just because someone says if we don't they will liquidate. If you want to give more to make up for what we dont want to give fine, go ahead, because with that mentality they will come back for more and get it eventually anyway, but you have no right telling us that we should accept it because you are worried that if we don't AA will liquidate. 
 
AANOTOK made the point of implying that mechanics should do like everyone else did and roll over because certain individuals in the International claimed that AA may liquidate if they don't get the cuts they were demanding, that we should be willing to do it for everyone else, the thing is pretty much everyone else, except mechanics were at or near what everyone else in the industry was making, we weren't, so he was saying we should be willing to accept what was not even being asked of them to ease their concerns that AA may liquidate. 
 
He also made the claim that I wanted AA to liquidate. 
 
So go ahead and try and spin it all you like, that's how I see it, other people who are not mechanics telling us what we should do even though its not being asked of them, and saying we should do this for them.

I don't really care who the original author of that sentence was. It was you who posted it without adding that it was said to you by someone else therfore what do you expect me to think? Having argued side by side with you on here in multiple arguments against those who thought very little of both of us, the company and Wall Street cheerleaders I just expected better from you if you believe that sentence in your mind.

We shouldn't be trying to insulate and isolate ourselves from the real enemies out there. You of all people should understand that better than most. The Corporations and their pocket Politicians are united and focused in their determination to screw EVERY blue collar worker. We can stand together to try to stop them or let them put all our heads on the chopping block. Your choice?

 

[WeAAsles]

My brothers friend had plenty of money, yet he killed himself as well. 100% true story. How many people at AA have killed themselves since 2003? 
 
As far as Lorenzo, yes he is still rich, but for people like him its not just the money, its the power. Either way, I'm glad he is out of the industry.

Irrelevant what industry he's in as I'm sure he very much enjoys his time in Spain while your friend and my friends father are still dead.

And Bob I know I was away from this page for the last 4 years but I was always coming back and reading. Are you really sure about that Liquidation stance?

 

[AANOTOK]

Bob, you are the spin master...period. I fully understand what you mean. Not for a minute did I believe you wanted AA to liquidate just to liquidate. Comprehend a little better or stop the spin. And no, I didn't imply that you should roll over like everyone else (who is everyone else and what did they do?) I don't give a rats ass what you guys do. Burn the place down if your unhappy...You will show them!
Again Bob, with your self imposed raise, I will be watching how far your mouth actually leads.
 
Zom...Do you still work at AA? If you do, why?? If you're fleet I understand why (per Bob) you're not ready for the "plastic or paper" role yet. If your a mechanic you should be able to go anywhere or do anything you desire. At least that's what Bob "implies".

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't really care who the original author of that sentence was. It was you who posted it without adding that it was said to you by someone else therfore what do you expect me to think? Having argued side by side with you on here in multiple arguments against those who thought very little of both of us, the company and Wall Street cheerleaders I just expected better from you if you believe that sentence in your mind.

We shouldn't be trying to insulate and isolate ourselves from the real enemies out there. You of all people should understand that better than most. The Corporations and their pocket Politicians are united and focused in their determination to screw EVERY blue collar worker. We can stand together to try to stop them or let them put all our heads on the chopping block. Your choice?

Guess you missed the quotation marks. So I clarified yet you say you still don't care who said it, so it would not have mattered if I have added that as well to the original post would it? The fact is in 10,000 post you wont find me attacking or putting down Fleet service workers and have often stood against mechanics who said they were overpaid etc.  I believe that Fleet , like us has sold themselves short, but I also recognize that due to the physical demands of the job older Fleet workers generally are at a disadvantage if they reenter the pool of available labor later in life, all the more reason why they should fight to make sure they make enough before they wear their bodies out. Fighting carries a risk, but so does giving in, because once you do the aggressor will always come back for more. If the attitude among Fleet is  we accept what ever the company offers us "because for most of our members the next career choice is plastic or paper", that's exactly how it was put to me from a FSC President, how should we as mechanics react when the expectation is that because of their circumstances they accepted it so should we, when in fact what they accepted was closer to industry standard than what we were offered? Whats to stop the company from now demanding that you accept way below industry standards as well and justify it by saying "Well our mechanics get way below industry standards so why shouldn't you?" 

 

[Kev3188]

The fact is in 10,000 post you wont find me attacking or putting down Fleet service workers and have often stood against mechanics who said they were overpaid etc.

Not for nothing, in all my years of hanging around this place, I've never seen Bob put down the ramp...

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, you are the spin master...period. I fully understand what you mean. Not for a minute did I believe you wanted AA to liquidate just to liquidate. Comprehend a little better or stop the spin. And no, I didn't imply that you should roll over like everyone else (who is everyone else and what did they do?) I don't give a rats ass what you guys do. Burn the place down if your unhappy...You will show them!
Again Bob, with your self imposed raise, I will be watching how far your mouth actually leads.
 
Zom...Do you still work at AA? If you do, why?? If you're fleet I understand why (per Bob) you're not ready for the "plastic or paper" role yet. If your a mechanic you should be able to go anywhere or do anything you desire. At least that's what Bob "implies".

When did I ever deny using the word? I refuted what the company man claimed  I "wanted". Then after that you jumped in started jumping up and down saying  "You absolutely said liquidate and to deny it hurts your credibility." What was the purpose of that? Spin? Why did you accuse me of denying that I used the word liquidate then only now admitting that agree that its not what I wanted? 

 

[WeAAsles]

Guess you missed the quotation marks. So I clarified yet you say you still don't care who said it, so it would not have mattered if I have added that as well to the original post would it? The fact is in 10,000 post you wont find me attacking or putting down Fleet service workers and have often stood against mechanics who said they were overpaid etc.  I believe that Fleet , like us has sold themselves short, but I also recognize that due to the physical demands of the job older Fleet workers generally are at a disadvantage if they reenter the pool of available labor later in life, all the more reason why they should fight to make sure they make enough before they wear their bodies out. Fighting carries a risk, but so does giving in, because once you do the aggressor will always come back for more. If the attitude among Fleet is  we accept what ever the company offers us "because for most of our members the next career choice is plastic or paper", that's exactly how it was put to me from a FSC President, how should we as mechanics react when the expectation is that because of their circumstances they accepted it so should we, when in fact what they accepted was closer to industry standard than what we were offered? Whats to stop the company from now demanding that you accept way below industry standards as well and justify it by saying "Well our mechanics get way below industry standards so why shouldn't you?"

Bob could you explain to me about that one group under the M&R umbrella that was going to take a $10 per hour haircut before that was whittled down to $5 under the "Me Too" clause? They were in the minority when it came to the decisions by the negotiators in the BK correct? Who voted YES to agree to that, saving more for the skilled group?

I'm just trying to understand this from your perspective and as one who has marched with low wage workers and against Walmart to try and improve the lives of those not as fortunate as us.

 

[bob@las-AA]

I think this topic should be locked!

 

[enough already]

I think this topic should be locked!

Maybe just brought back to the topic of the thread...

 

[WeAAsles]

This is an epidemic not isolated to just us in the airline industry. I know that you see the things I post on FB, Bob. Until we ALL join together to fight back, the race to the bottom will just continue its long slide down. We can try and isolate ourselves from the rest of the world as much as we want but that big bad wolf is still going to blow our doors down. We are all equal in the same fight.

 

[Bob Owens]

This is an epidemic not isolated to just us in the airline industry. I know that you see the things I post on FB, Bob. Until we ALL join together to fight back, the race to the bottom will just continue its long slide down. We can try and isolate ourselves from the rest of the world as much as we want but that big bad wolf is still going to blow our doors down. We are all equal in the same fight.

Ok, let me know when the fighting actually starts. All I've been hearing is how we must fight, but not this time. We were ready to fight, then we got all this BS about how we were going to force AA to liquidate and hurt everybody else who wasn't willing to fight. Yes workers across the board have seen cuts, few have fallen as far as airline workers in an industry that has not only grown but seen massive increases in productivity. If the other two Unions on the property had joined the pilots in saying NO to the concessions together we could have challenged this whole BS BK process where Airline workers are singled out for especially harsh treatment. With minimal excess capacity out there the President and Congress would have had to step in, but we didn't, now they are going after government workers as well. We had a company that had admitted this was a BK of convenience and we let them get away with it. 
 

Bob could you explain to me about that one group under the M&R umbrella that was going to take a $10 per hour haircut before that was whittled down to $5 under the "Me Too" clause? They were in the minority when it came to the decisions by the negotiators in the BK correct? Who voted YES to agree to that, saving more for the skilled group?

I'm just trying to understand this from your perspective and as one who has marched with low wage workers and against Walmart to try and improve the lives of those not as fortunate as us.

Not sure what you are talking about. We never voted in favor of any cuts. We each were given a figure and told we must get to it. We were divided into three, base, Title II and line.  OH and Title II had direct negotiations with the company, once they reached deals we were roll called into accepting the company's position on our'share" without ever getting to discuss our way of meeting the number with changes that only affected us. -That's what drove the lawsuit.
 
One change that we had which would have helped all of us in M&R was restoring the half pay for the first two sick days. we showed using the companies own data that while departments that didn't impose the penalty the sick time rates stayed the same in M&R it spiked and remained at 5.1 days since they imposed the penalty, the penalty was costing them $7 million a year, because mechanics starting calling in for longer periods once the penalty was imposed, instead of calling in a day, they called in a week. 

 

[Overspeed]

 
IIRC not too many of the older EAL guys or Pan Am from their Fleet Service were hired by AA. I know that many Fleet guys had education that would land them other jobs but they chose to stay, one former 501 official who was a FSC used to boast that he had a teaching degree and a Batchelors Degree therefore he should be earning more than mechanics.  

 
"Batchelors Degree"?

 

[Bob Owens]

 
"Batchelors Degree"?

Congratulations you found a spelling error. Should we go over your posts? How many times have you put "are", as in "are contract is industry leading"  instead of "our"? 

 

[TWU informer]

The TWU provides no answers to the membership, so these threads turn into peronality conflicts instead of worthwhile substance. Why don't we ever have answers to important questions? Because the TWU is a double secret code ring hide the truth Union.