Haven't Heard About the Extra 4% in Equity to be Held Aside?

[AANOTOK]

Yes it is obvious what Bob said and meant. He would rather, as a last resort, see AA liquidate than keep giving back till his job and proffesion aren't worth having. I agree with him.

I see, you want as much carnage as possible...got it Zom!

 

[Zom JFK]

Not at all. I just don't think giving back till you're on food stamps is the way to go.

 

[Overspeed]

you mean he screwed all of aa m&r single handed?

 
No, I didn't mean that. I strongly believe we faired better than our colleagues at other airlines that went through BK.

 

[AANOTOK]

So explain to me exactly what does liquidation do and who does it hurt? If I were guessing, I would say that the "carnage" I speak of would be the other thousands of employee's that would be on the street without having any say in the matter. The people who it definitely would not hurt is upper management. They have their millions...and more importantly, they have resumes! I do not want to be on food stamps either, but liquidation surely doesn't prevent that. But hey, if you and the few followers who I see agree with you feel that's what it takes,
so be it.

 

[dfw gen]

 
No, I didn't mean that. I strongly believe we faired better than our colleagues at other airlines that went through BK.

naw pretty sure don screwed m&e .. must be why he is trying to get disability.

 

[Jager]

I don't think Phat Don is applying for physical disability but mental disability.. The way he screwed the membership is a qualifying symptom of mental instability....
 
I thought he was going into management @ DFW?...

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes it is obvious what Bob said and meant. He would rather, as a last resort, see AA liquidate than keep giving back till his job and proffesion aren't worth having. I agree with him.

Exactly but to those with small minds that can only process things in black and white they interpret that as "wanting the company to liquidate".  Or they easily are swayed by spinmasters like NYER and Overspeed.
 
Our peers at EAL faced that same choice, give away everything or fight, did the workers at EAL want the airline to Liquidate? No, but instead of giving Lorenzo everything he wanted, which would have been followed by even  more and more demands for concessions they chose to say no, and every other Airline worker was that much better off till Sept 11 gave them the excuse to do what Lorenzo tried to do. They knew going out that liquidation was likely because Lorenzo had already been transferring assetts to Continental (whose mechanics now have a much better deal than we do) but liquidation was never really an issue with us.  I realize that for Fleet where the choice is give in or in their next job is "will that be paper or plastic" things are different but for mechanics AA was hiring guys who were at or above retirement age from not only EAL but Pan Am as well. And they were at top pay in two years due to Flex. When EAL went away other carriers increased capacity and hired nearly every mechanic that EAL dumped on the market. The situation today is even better as far as demand for mechanics and there is negligible excess capacity in the system, much less than there was in 1989 or 1992. 
 
that said AA was no where near Liquidating, they went in with $5 billion in cash, they did not need any concessions from their workers to be a viable profitable company, they simply wanted them to be the most profitable carrier ever. The company never actually said anything about liquidating if they didn't get what they wanted, that was spun out by Little and his hired hands such as Mark Richard, who time and time again would bring up EAL even though the two situations were as different as night and day when it came to the true financial condition of the airline. 
 
AAnotOk seems incapable of processing that. Then again AAnotok is not $10,000+ a year below his peers either, if that was the case where his work group was the only one expected to accept way below industry standards to preserve everyone else at industry standards I wonder if he would feel the same way? If AA had demanded that they accept top pay and benefits somewhere mid point between say Allied and United, would he look at this the same way? Thats what happened to us, we ended up mid point between TIMCO and United, actually closer to TIMCO in NY and much closer to TIMCO when benefits are factored in, at TIMCO they start off with at least two weeks Vacation. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Exactly but to those with small minds that can only process things in black and white they interpret that as "wanting the company to liquidate".  Or they easily are swayed by spinmasters like NYER and Overspeed.
 
Our peers at EAL faced that same choice, give away everything or fight, did the workers at EAL want the airline to Liquidate? No, but instead of giving Lorenzo everything he wanted, which would have been followed by even  more and more demands for concessions they chose to say no, and every other Airline worker was that much better off till Sept 11 gave them the excuse to do what Lorenzo tried to do. They knew going out that liquidation was likely because Lorenzo had already been transferring assetts to Continental (whose mechanics now have a much better deal than we do) but liquidation was never really an issue with us.

 I realize that for Fleet where the choice is give in or in their next job is "will that be paper or plastic" things are different

but for mechanics AA was hiring guys who were at or above retirement age from not only EAL but Pan Am as well. And they were at top pay in two years due to Flex. When EAL went away other carriers increased capacity and hired nearly every mechanic that EAL dumped on the market. The situation today is even better as far as demand for mechanics and there is negligible excess capacity in the system, much less than there was in 1989 or 1992. 
 
that said AA was no where near Liquidating, they went in with $5 billion in cash, they did not need any concessions from their workers to be a viable profitable company, they simply wanted them to be the most profitable carrier ever. The company never actually said anything about liquidating if they didn't get what they wanted, that was spun out by Little and his hired hands such as Mark Richard, who time and time again would bring up EAL even though the two situations were as different as night and day when it came to the true financial condition of the airline. 
 
AAnotOk seems incapable of processing that. Then again AAnotok is not $10,000+ a year below his peers either, if that was the case where his work group was the only one expected to accept way below industry standards to preserve everyone else at industry standards I wonder if he would feel the same way? If AA had demanded that they accept top pay and benefits somewhere mid point between say Allied and United, would he look at this the same way? Thats what happened to us, we ended up mid point between TIMCO and United, actually closer to TIMCO in NY and much closer to TIMCO when benefits are factored in, at TIMCO they start off with at least two weeks Vacation. 

Very insulting Bob and as a leader with more than just liscensed mechanics under your wings I would hope that this is not your true feelings for those who are not as priveledged to be wrench turners such as yourself?

Not everyone in Fleet is uneducated and will end up in Walmart I thought you should know.

The mindset of those who assume they're privileged never fails to amaze me.

 

[AANOTOK]

Bob, if you want to call me small minded, that's fine. If you think my education is nothing better than "plastic or paper in the event of the loss of a fleet service job, that's cool. I don't even care if you think I'm incapable of processing things, doesn't bother me. But, I will watch and see if the "Great Bob Owens" who talks the talk actually does anything for his members. I have never seen anything on here that you have done other than run your mouth and pound your chest. I will also be interested to see if when push comes to shove will Mr. Owens listen to his bosses (International) and follow their rules, or listen to the members and try and oust the TWU. Gave yourself a nice little raise, so I know who is in the lead there. Good luck Bob, I hope you get all you want, even if you must take from the future plastic or bag handlers of America. I for one don't subscribe to the David Koresh mentality of I'm taking everyone down with me...But then again that's me, and you know how small minds think, right Bob!

 

[NYer]

Bob, if you want to call me small minded, that's fine. If you think my education is nothing better than "plastic or paper in the event of the loss of a fleet service job, that's cool. I don't even care if you think I'm incapable of processing things, doesn't bother me. But, I will watch and see if the "Great Bob Owens" who talks the talk actually does anything for his members. I have never seen anything on here that you have done other than run your mouth and pound your chest. I will also be interested to see if when push comes to shove will Mr. Owens listen to his bosses (International) and follow their rules, or listen to the members and try and oust the TWU. Gave yourself a nice little raise, so I know who is in the lead there. Good luck Bob, I hope you get all you want, even if you must take from the future plastic or bag handlers of America. I for one don't subscribe to the David Koresh mentality of I'm taking everyone down with me...But then again that's me, and you know how small minds think, right Bob!

Bob fails to mention that those guys in Eastern took quite a few years to return to the levels they had as they started at new companies with a "day one" package. Their fight brought down an airline and to this day many of those workers are trying to recover what they lost. The ones that had the time to make that recovery and weren't within an age group that gave them the ability to get back on their feet. They lost their 20 and 30 years and never recovered the benefits they lost. It sure sounds nice when these things are portrayed from the comfort of where they are, as opposed to where everyone would be if liquidation took place. That is easily seen even from the checkout counter in between the plastic over paper dilemma.

 

[Zom JFK]

So explain to me exactly what does liquidation do and who does it hurt? If I were guessing, I would say that the "carnage" I speak of would be the other thousands of employee's that would be on the street without having any say in the matter. The people who it definitely would not hurt is upper management. They have their millions...and more importantly, they have resumes! I do not want to be on food stamps either, but liquidation surely doesn't prevent that. But hey, if you and the few followers who I see agree with you feel that's what it takes,
so be it.

Spoken like a true American Airlines fleet service clerk. I'll do anything to keep my job. I'll give back 50%, I'll give back 80%, there's nothing out there! A mentality the company will exploit over and over.
 

Bob fails to mention that those guys in Eastern took quite a few years to return to the levels they had as they started at new companies with a "day one" package. Their fight brought down an airline and to this day many of those workers are trying to recover what they lost. The ones that had the time to make that recovery and weren't within an age group that gave them the ability to get back on their feet. They lost their 20 and 30 years and never recovered the benefits they lost. It sure sounds nice when these things are portrayed from the comfort of where they are, as opposed to where everyone would be if liquidation took place. That is easily seen even from the checkout counter in between the plastic over paper dilemma.

Yeah if only the employees at Eastern would have just given Lorenzo everything he wanted. The race to the bottom could have started sooner. How anyone can even question their heroic stand is beyond me. Sometimes you have to stand up to the bully even if it means getting hurt yourself. Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with those poor timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat- Theodore Roosevelt.

 

[Zom JFK]

Very insulting Bob and as a leader with more than just liscensed mechanics under your wings I would hope that this is not your true feelings for those who are not as priveledged to be wrench turners such as yourself?

Not everyone in Fleet is uneducated and will end up in Walmart I thought you should know.

The mindset of those who assume they're privileged never fails to amaze me.

When mechanics and fleet bicker and slam each other the only winner is the company.

 

[Bob Owens]

Very insulting Bob and as a leader with more than just liscensed mechanics under your wings I would hope that this is not your true feelings for those who are not as priveledged to be wrench turners such as yourself?

Not everyone in Fleet is uneducated and will end up in Walmart I thought you should know.

The mindset of those who assume they're privileged never fails to amaze me.

That's a quote I heard from a Fleet Service President as to why they were so quick to accept concessions during the BK negotiations. Don't believe me ask Steve Gukelberger who heard it.
 
IIRC not too many of the older EAL guys or Pan Am from their Fleet Service were hired by AA. I know that many Fleet guys had education that would land them other jobs but they chose to stay, one former 501 official who was a FSC used to boast that he had a teaching degree and a Batchelors Degree therefore he should be earning more than mechanics. I ask if a teaching degree was required to do the job he was paid for, if not then why should he expect to get paid for it. They stayed because the wages were pretty good, they should have been willing to keep them that way. Maybe jobs may not have been available in their chosen field and when they did become available maybe they weren't willing or able to take the paycut and start at entry wages again, but things changed and they were trapped, the guy with the teaching degree retired as a FSC, I've never said that any other worker should accept concessions because I'm concerned AA will liquidate, other people shouldn't tell us we should either.
 
While one could argue that the same could be said for mechanics becoming trapped but the point is the skills we learned at AA are portable and desired and the likelyhood of getting hired at another carrier remain high even into our 60s, so no we should not be willing to accept the worst of everything just because someone says if we don't they will liquidate. If you want to give more to make up for what we dont want to give fine, go ahead, because with that mentality they will come back for more and get it eventually anyway, but you have no right telling us that we should accept it because you are worried that if we don't AA will liquidate. 
 
AANOTOK made the point of implying that mechanics should do like everyone else did and roll over because certain individuals in the International claimed that AA may liquidate if they don't get the cuts they were demanding, that we should be willing to do it for everyone else, the thing is pretty much everyone else, except mechanics were at or near what everyone else in the industry was making, we weren't, so he was saying we should be willing to accept what was not even being asked of them to ease their concerns that AA may liquidate. 
 
He also made the claim that I wanted AA to liquidate. 
 
So go ahead and try and spin it all you like, that's how I see it, other people who are not mechanics telling us what we should do even though its not being asked of them, and saying we should do this for them. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Spoken like a true American Airlines fleet service clerk. I'll do anything to keep my job. I'll give back 50%, I'll give back 80%, there's nothing out there! A mentality the company will exploit over and over.
 

Yeah if only the employees at Eastern would have just given Lorenzo everything he wanted. The race to the bottom could have started sooner. How anyone can even question their heroic stand is beyond me. Sometimes you have to stand up to the bully even if it means getting hurt yourself. Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with those poor timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat- Theodore Roosevelt.

Yes the stand against Frank Lorenzo was absolutely devastating to him and he was never truly able to recover.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/news/companies/1010/gallery.where_are_they_now.fortune/12.html

My friends father was a mechanic for Eastern. Edward Bustos was his name. He got a job after Eastern working for FedEx scanning packages that the drivers couldn't do on their routes. He was making $8 per hour. I know this because at the time I was a driver making $14 in the same station, JRA. I was 23 years old. I never could call him Ed like he said I could. He was always Mr Bustos to me.

Well eventually I'm not sure what happened but he killed himself years later. I'm friends with his daughter Gina on FB.

100% true story.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob fails to mention that those guys in Eastern took quite a few years to return to the levels they had as they started at new companies with a "day one" package. Their fight brought down an airline and to this day many of those workers are trying to recover what they lost. The ones that had the time to make that recovery and weren't within an age group that gave them the ability to get back on their feet. They lost their 20 and 30 years and never recovered the benefits they lost. It sure sounds nice when these things are portrayed from the comfort of where they are, as opposed to where everyone would be if liquidation took place. That is easily seen even from the checkout counter in between the plastic over paper dilemma.

We will never recover what we lost, point is thanks to the EAL guys we got to keep what we had an extra 10 years. The EAL guys took two years to be earning more than they were at EAL when they left, we took paycuts 11 years ago and still are earning less than we were in 2003.
 
2 years vs 11+ years, not counting inflation. 
 
 Had Lorenzo won that battle in 1989 and they gave him everything he wanted they still would have lost their 20 and 30 years and in the meantime other carriers would have claimed they needed what Lorenzo got . Yes they lost their seniority but their pay recovered quickly and their actions kept pay across the industry from declining as much Lorenzo was trying to force. Compare that to what happened when USAIR became the lead carrier in search of concessions following 9-11, they got it and everyone followed, like dominos, at EAL they hit a wall. 
 
Our wages in real terms have been cut by over 50%, our pensions were frozen, we work more hours than ever before as we have less vacation and fewer Holidays. I never heard one mechanic from EAL complain that they should have bent over for Lorenzo. Labor won the things we gave away by fighting for them, and we lost much of what they won by not fighting for it. That goes for all of us, FSC's mechanics, Stock clerks, pilots , attendants and agents.