Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Wow, in addition to knowing what's going too happen in the future, you can also read the minds of most of the West pilots.

Is there a neon "Psychic Readings" sign in your living room window?

Wouldn't you say the same applies to many westies on here?

 

[EastUS1]

Nobody on the West wants what you have,......

OK....Now THAT is, without ANY possible question, the all time, first prize winner for best joke of the day/month/year/decade/EVER! Thanks for the laughs. 🙂

 

[snapthis]

Dude, where have you been? Addington I dismissed for RIPENESS.
No injury, no ripe. simple and sweet.
What's more, not only was the case dismissed, but ERADICATED like it never even happened.
Why? Because the judge screwed up and proceeded with the case instead of dismissing it before it started.
Gotta do better than this!!! I give u a c-, mostly because you are not paying attention in class.

I doubt you read the 9th's decision or comprehend the decision if you did. I'll go with the latter..

Dissent by Judge Bybee

I agree with the majority that this case would be ripe if​

USAPA and U.S. Air had entered into a CBA. That is not the question that this case presents. We are asked whether our Article III jurisdiction extends to a DFR claim based on a union “constitutionally committed,” Maj. Op. at 8001, to voiding a binding arbitration award and adopting a “date of hire” seniority principle that plainly favors one side of a merger. When the question is posed in this way, I believe the ripeness of the West Pilots’ claims becomes clear.​

We employ a two-part test to determine whether a claim is ripe for review, evaluating “(1) whether the issues are fit for judicial decision, and (2) whether the parties will suffer hardship if we decline to consider the issues.” San Diego County Gun Rights Comm. v. Reno, 98 F.3d 1121, 1132 (9th Cir.2006). The issues raised by the West Pilots’ DFR claim are straightforward, and the uncontested facts of this case make clear that the issues involved are fit for decision on this record.​

The West Pilots’ DFR theory does not depend on any contingen future events such as the memorialization of a finalized CBA or seniority integration agreement. The district court explained why the issues were fit for decision and the parties will suffer hardship if we decline to consider the issues: The issues fit for decision are these: Whether USAPA adopted and presented its seniority proposal without any legitimate union objective, solely to benefit East Pilots at the expense of West Pilots, and if so whether the West Pilots are entitled to damages and an injunction therefor . . . . USAPA concedes it will never bargain for implementation of the Nicolau Award. It is constitutionally hostile to doing so. The Airline has accepted the Nicolau Award, expressing no opposition to it, and the union has failed to show any legitimate reason (or plausible future reason) for abandoning it. Liability flows from the process and aims of USAPA’s seniority position. The outcome of negotiations is irrelevant. Without an injunction, USAPA’s seniority position inevitably impairs the collective bargaining process.​

For this same reason, denying judicial review would​

work a substantial hardship upon the parties, including the Airline . . . . In addition to depriving the West Pilots of legitimate representation, USAPA’s bargaining position leaves the Airline to decide between a lack of a single CBA and an unlawful single CBA.
(Emphasis added).

Recognition by the court:

1The dissent asserts that “nothing would be gained by postponing a decision, and the parties’ interest would be well served by a prompt resolution of the West Pilots’ claim.” Diss. op. at 8017 (internal alterations, quotation marks, and citation omitted). To be sure, the parties’ interest would be served by prompt resolution of the seniority dispute, but that is not the same as prompt resolution of the DFR claim. The present impasse, in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.​

Is USAPA bargaining in good faith? No.

Does USAPA bargain with my interests in mind? No

Keep heading the direction you are going, continue following the road signs which read DFR.

 

[cleardirect]

First I asked you east pilots how you thought a three way list would be created. Taking into account all of the questions that I asked. It is east pilots that think (hope, and pray) that will be a three way. My point really was to see if any of you could come up with a way to make a three way fair and equitable for ALL US Airways pilots not using the Nicolau list.

Personally I believe that an SLI merger will be the Nicolau and the American list.

So my opinion is that the Nicolau list and the American list will be used. Starting at the bottom furloughed American pilots will be placed below active pilots. The POR is set for best guess September. American has announced that they will recall about 60 per month. So over the next 6 months that means 360 furloughed American pilots could be recalled and be considered active pilots.

American has a lot of deferred pilots senior to furloughed pilots. So those 360 may not all be furloughed pilots just returning more senior pilots returning. Either way the bottom of the American list would be about 6/2001 DOH.

I would consider the A/E flow through on the list but never active so they should be junior to all US Airways pilots. Using the Nicolau takes care of the problem of where is the bottom of the US Airways list. New hires (third listers) would be junior to pre-merger US Airways pilots. That establishes the total number of pilots to integrate.

Other important facts to consider. American has a total of 9845 on their seniority list with 8390 active.
Estimated 3775 captains. 4615 F/O’s. Those number are best guess estimates.
US Airways has a total of 5053 (last published seniority list) Active pilots 4125.
US Airways captains 1945. F/O’s 2179 (calculated)

Total pilots on the seniority list 14, 898
Total active pilots combined 11,787

From here I think there are two ways to go. Straight relative seniority from the top of the list to the bottom. There will be approximately 14,898 total pilots. 9845 american and 5053 US Airways pilots. Starting at the top of the list somewhere between 2.0 to 3 ratio. For every 3 pilots 2.0 pilots will be American. Just like the ratio Nicolau used for the east and west. Example. If you are 1000 down the US Airways list you would have 2000 American pilots ahead of you. On a stand alone list at 1000 out of 5050 you are 19.8%. Combined list with 2000 american you end up 20.1% relative.

Other option is split the pilot group into captains and F/O’s. Total number of Captains 6700, total F/O’s 8195. These are estimated total pilots. Number of active positions will be less.
So the top and bottom captain s from both airlines would be ratioed in somewhere close to 2/3 again. The same with the F/O’s preserving status and expectations of upgrade.

I think there will be a 5-7 year equipment wide body fence. American flys what they brought, US Airways pilots fly what we brought. That includes PHX pilots flying those airplanes. There will not be any bases fences. Once the list is released where ever you care to go whatever you care to fly in whatever base it is you will be able to exercise your seniority at the words largest airline.

Using the Nicolau relieves all parties of any legal problems. Using the Nicolau makes the integration of US Airways and American much cleaner and easier.

Using this method captains remain captains, F/O’s close to upgrade remain close to upgrade. No windfall. Furloughed pilots had an expectation of returning sometime not they do not bring a job. They were at the bottom of the list and they will return to the bottom of the list. Only to a much stronger company with more opportunity. The bottom active east pilots remain at the bottom and will have people come in junior to them as expected instead of slotting in senior to them not expected stand alone.

This is my opinion of how I would like to see US Airways and American integrate.

How would you do it? Keep in mind that usapa has to represent ALL US Airways pilots fairly. DOH is not fair. Fences are expensive.

 

[Phoenix]

I personally believe that US Americans are unable to do so because some folks out there in our nation don't have maps... And uh our education system.. Such as South Africa...

Yeah, it just gets better now that she is warmed up.

 

[Beancounter]

First I asked you east pilots how you thought a three way list would be created. Taking into account all of the questions that I asked. It is east pilots that think (hope, and pray) that will be a three way. My point really was to see if any of you could come up with a way to make a three way fair and equitable for ALL US Airways pilots not using the Nicolau list.

Personally I believe that an SLI merger will be the Nicolau and the American list.

So my opinion is that the Nicolau list and the American list will be used. Starting at the bottom furloughed American pilots will be placed below active pilots. The POR is set for best guess September. American has announced that they will recall about 60 per month. So over the next 6 months that means 360 furloughed American pilots could be recalled and be considered active pilots.

American has a lot of deferred pilots senior to furloughed pilots. So those 360 may not all be furloughed pilots just returning more senior pilots returning. Either way the bottom of the American list would be about 6/2001 DOH.

I would consider the A/E flow through on the list but never active so they should be junior to all US Airways pilots. Using the Nicolau takes care of the problem of where is the bottom of the US Airways list. New hires (third listers) would be junior to pre-merger US Airways pilots. That establishes the total number of pilots to integrate.

Other important facts to consider. American has a total of 9845 on their seniority list with 8390 active.
Estimated 3775 captains. 4615 F/O’s. Those number are best guess estimates.
US Airways has a total of 5053 (last published seniority list) Active pilots 4125.
US Airways captains 1945. F/O’s 2179 (calculated)

Total pilots on the seniority list 14, 898
Total active pilots combined 11,787

From here I think there are two ways to go. Straight relative seniority from the top of the list to the bottom. There will be approximately 14,898 total pilots. 9845 american and 5053 US Airways pilots. Starting at the top of the list somewhere between 2.0 to 3 ratio. For every 3 pilots 2.0 pilots will be American. Just like the ratio Nicolau used for the east and west. Example. If you are 1000 down the US Airways list you would have 2000 American pilots ahead of you. On a stand alone list at 1000 out of 5050 you are 19.8%. Combined list with 2000 american you end up 20.1% relative.

Other option is split the pilot group into captains and F/O’s. Total number of Captains 6700, total F/O’s 8195. These are estimated total pilots. Number of active positions will be less.
So the top and bottom captain s from both airlines would be ratioed in somewhere close to 2/3 again. The same with the F/O’s preserving status and expectations of upgrade.

I think there will be a 5-7 year equipment wide body fence. American flys what they brought, US Airways pilots fly what we brought. That includes PHX pilots flying those airplanes. There will not be any bases fences. Once the list is released where ever you care to go whatever you care to fly in whatever base it is you will be able to exercise your seniority at the words largest airline.

Using the Nicolau relieves all parties of any legal problems. Using the Nicolau makes the integration of US Airways and American much cleaner and easier.

Using this method captains remain captains, F/O’s close to upgrade remain close to upgrade. No windfall. Furloughed pilots had an expectation of returning sometime not they do not bring a job. They were at the bottom of the list and they will return to the bottom of the list. Only to a much stronger company with more opportunity. The bottom active east pilots remain at the bottom and will have people come in junior to them as expected instead of slotting in senior to them not expected stand alone.

This is my opinion of how I would like to see US Airways and American integrate.

How would you do it? Keep in mind that usapa has to represent ALL US Airways pilots fairly. DOH is not fair. Fences are expensive.

So it sounds like you think the seniority snapshot will be the date of the POR? That would be my guess too. I've heard that some think it might be the date of merger anouncent, but I'm not sure what they're basing that on. Oh yeah, i almost forgot to add good post. We'll see if someone on the east can post anything other than DOH.

Bean

 

[AWE Dog]

No windfall? Really? Starting with the Nic is a west windfall. Your dream gives away all east attrition, Nice Try. I forgot, attrition isn't important because you have so little. And your #1 pilot belongs with the rest of 1983 hires, he needs 10 more years to be even close.

 

[nic4us]

No windfall? Really? Starting with the Nic is a west windfall. Your dream gives away all east attrition, Nice Try. I forgot, attrition isn't important because you have so little. And your #1 pilot belongs with the rest of 1983 hires, he needs 10 more years to be even close.

Maybe edam would be a good cheese to go along with your whine.


Got a point to make other than you have not read, researched or even vaguely understand the Nic?

 

[Claxon]

Maybe edam would be a good cheese to go along with your whine.


Got a point to make other than you have not read, researched or even vaguely understand the Nic?

Nice job self eliminating the Nic. You just stepped on your cranks on the orders of your crack reps. You just got napalmed. I love the smell of napalm on the Nic

 

[cactusboy53]

Nice job self eliminating the Nic. You just stepped on your cranks on the orders of your crack reps. You just got napalmed. I love the smell of napalm on the Nic

I'm so glad that you are "supremely confident" of your position. If you are so sure, WYE do you keep posting it?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

First I asked you east pilots how you thought a three way list would be created. Taking into account all of the questions that I asked. It is east pilots that think (hope, and pray) that will be a three way. My point really was to see if any of you could come up with a way to make a three way fair and equitable for ALL US Airways pilots not using the Nicolau list.

Personally I believe that an SLI merger will be the Nicolau and the American list.

So my opinion is that the Nicolau list and the American list will be used. Starting at the bottom furloughed American pilots will be placed below active pilots. The POR is set for best guess September. American has announced that they will recall about 60 per month. So over the next 6 months that means 360 furloughed American pilots could be recalled and be considered active pilots.

American has a lot of deferred pilots senior to furloughed pilots. So those 360 may not all be furloughed pilots just returning more senior pilots returning. Either way the bottom of the American list would be about 6/2001 DOH.

I would consider the A/E flow through on the list but never active so they should be junior to all US Airways pilots. Using the Nicolau takes care of the problem of where is the bottom of the US Airways list. New hires (third listers) would be junior to pre-merger US Airways pilots. That establishes the total number of pilots to integrate.

Other important facts to consider. American has a total of 9845 on their seniority list with 8390 active.
Estimated 3775 captains. 4615 F/O’s. Those number are best guess estimates.
US Airways has a total of 5053 (last published seniority list) Active pilots 4125.
US Airways captains 1945. F/O’s 2179 (calculated)

Total pilots on the seniority list 14, 898
Total active pilots combined 11,787

From here I think there are two ways to go. Straight relative seniority from the top of the list to the bottom. There will be approximately 14,898 total pilots. 9845 american and 5053 US Airways pilots. Starting at the top of the list somewhere between 2.0 to 3 ratio. For every 3 pilots 2.0 pilots will be American. Just like the ratio Nicolau used for the east and west. Example. If you are 1000 down the US Airways list you would have 2000 American pilots ahead of you. On a stand alone list at 1000 out of 5050 you are 19.8%. Combined list with 2000 american you end up 20.1% relative.

Other option is split the pilot group into captains and F/O’s. Total number of Captains 6700, total F/O’s 8195. These are estimated total pilots. Number of active positions will be less.
So the top and bottom captain s from both airlines would be ratioed in somewhere close to 2/3 again. The same with the F/O’s preserving status and expectations of upgrade.

I think there will be a 5-7 year equipment wide body fence. American flys what they brought, US Airways pilots fly what we brought. That includes PHX pilots flying those airplanes. There will not be any bases fences. Once the list is released where ever you care to go whatever you care to fly in whatever base it is you will be able to exercise your seniority at the words largest airline.

Using the Nicolau relieves all parties of any legal problems. Using the Nicolau makes the integration of US Airways and American much cleaner and easier.

. No windfall. Furloughed pilots had an expectation of returning sometime not they do not bring a job. They were at the bottom of the list and they will return to the bottom of the list. Only to a much stronger company with more opportunity. The bottom active east pilots remain at the bottom and will have people come in junior to them as expected instead of slotting in senior to them not expected stand alone.

This is my opinion of how I would like to see US Airways and American integrate.

How would you do it? Keep in mind that usapa has to represent ALL US Airways pilots fairly. DOH is not fair. Fences are expensive.

Can you spell BS, the furloughs have a place and bring a position, your BS will fall on deaf hears at AMERICAN as they have at AWA, my opinion the 2 groups will avoid MB DOH with CAR, and let your sorry asses litigate!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

What will be hilarious is when the litigation bills start rolling in outside your AZ sphere of influence zone! MM! Coming soon !

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

AMERICAN is a legacy carrier DOH should prevail, why not?

 

[Claxon]

"04/10/09 Katie Brown-Out-of-pocket expenses and lunch on plane 131.40"

Snakes on a plane scarey, how about lawyer lunch on a plane?

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/addington_filings/Doc614-1_Harper_ExA.pdf

 

[luvthe9]

Hey Guys:

If anyone thinks we did not negotiate a BK pay scale, they need to think again!

United 12 year Captain 2013 A320-321 USair/AA Difference

$188.97 $167.68 $21.29 X 85 X 12= $21715.80

United 12 year Captain 2014 A320-321

$205.03 $181.09 $23.94 X 85 X 12= $24418.80

United 12 year Captain 2015 A320-321

$211.18 $186.53 $24.65 X 85 X 12= $25143.00

United 12 year Captain 2016 A320-321

$217.52 $214.76 $2.76 X 85 X 12= $2815.20


TOTAL HOURLY DIFFERENCE OVER (4) YEARS $74,092.60

DC 16% (Not including loss of at least 5% yrly interest) $11,854.81

NO PROFIT SHARING $????????????

TOTAL $85,947.41

Average United Retro Pay $43,000.00

GRAND TOTAL $128,947.41 ($32,236.85 per year less)


You don't even want to look at the Delta disparity. As the #1 Airline in size and revenue generating capability, it begs (2) questions, why are we being paid like #4 (Southwest makes more) and is Doug and the rest of Tempe (I mean DFW) compensation package going to reflect being paid like the #4 or #1?