Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

As agreed to in the MOU, the 'lists' currently in effect cannot be changed by the MOU/MTA or the JCBA. As agreed to in the MOU, the only way the seniority lists in effect now can be modified in through the negotiation and arbitration process defined by the MOU and M/B.
Ripeness, for the purposes of a DFR lawsuit, will not occur until the SLI is completed.
The argument that the Nic list should be used is negated by the MOU agreement which states that the current lists (plural) cannot be changed.
Once the MOU/MTA becomes our working agreement on the effective date, all other agreements cease to exist. The Nic required a joint contract between east and west to become effective. That has not happened, and will not happen. Since the triggering event lives in the current TA, the Nic dies along with the nullification of all east and west agreements on the effective date.
The west voted 98% for the MOU and the merger.
All talk of TROs stopping the merger are just talk. There is no ripeness until injured. The west's claims to the Nic died when the MOU changed the terms of how seniority will be determined in the LCC/AA merger.
The west is just tryng to use meaningless threats to gain status that they willingly voted away.
Very entertaining.
Cheers.

You have it all figured I guess. usapa managed to out maneuver the west. Yes very smart.

Using your own logic the MOU can't change the current listS.

Referring to the presidents latest message:

Our union, our lawyers and our merger counsel have been advised that USAPA will begin the seniority integration process with APA by pursuing what Article I, Section 8 D of our Constitution requires, “To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.”

How is usapa going to change from listS to the required single DOH list? You say the MOU prevents that.

So by your ligic the best usapa can do is present two lists to be integrated with the APA list. Are you sure you want that to happen? Perhaps the arbitrators have met Nicolau before and could be miffed that the east pilots have not respected their senior members work. Knowing that the east pilots have delayed (stolen) 5 years from the west.

Maybe the arbitrator integrate the west list much higher up the combined list while sliding down the east list somewhere near the bottom just to make up for the last 5 years of childish and dishonorable behavior.

You guys have seen what an arbitrator can do when he has no emotional tie to a list. Throw in that the east pilots have insulted their senior and most respected member and disrespected the entire arbitration process. Using two list could be very costly for the east pilots.

You know you are not going to get DOH so any other method is possible.

Could it be that usapa outsmarted themselves by allowing that line about current listS? It precludes a single DOH list from usapa. However the Nicolau is also a current list just waiting for a joint contract. Notice it does no say east west list it says currently in effect.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

This is Marty's last hurrah. I doubt he is going to get any traction, but the second he does (even perceived) the merger behemoth will prevail. Those that need to act will. As I have said before, Parker is NOT going to let any more seniority shenanigans upset his goal to helm the world's largest airline.

The West Class has been outmaneuvered. They mistakenly followed Harper's advice to ALL vote for the MOU, counting on a phantom ripeness trigger. Unfortunately, they failed (just like Judge Wake) to consider the previous actions of a North Carolina Judge (Conrad) who de facto reaffirmed ripeness as the COMPLETION of a JCBA No JCBA, no injunction relief.

In fact, they also ignored the Ninth. Again, no ratified JCBA, no ripeness. So the POR will come and go, and all have agreed on the new MOU protocol for seniority integration. The previous method of uncompleted integration (LOA 96) goes "poof." New method, still no ripeness. Game over (once again) for the NIC zombie.

Checked on Wings today, I still see no joint East and West seniority list posted.

Greeter

 

[traderjake]

Checked on Wings today, I still see no joint East and West seniority list posted.

Do you see USAPA's DOH list posted?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Do you see USAPA's DOH list posted?

Our EAST list is slated to be published there in early March when the reorder process is over.

There is no joint list, DOH or otherwise. Have I ever alluded to such a list being published, without a ratified JCBA?

Greeter

 

[PullUp]

You have it all figured I guess. usapa managed to out maneuver the west. Yes very smart.

Using your own logic the MOU can't change the current listS.

Referring to the presidents latest message:



How is usapa going to change from listS to the required single DOH list? You say the MOU prevents that.

So by your ligic the best usapa can do is present two lists to be integrated with the APA list. Are you sure you want that to happen? Perhaps the arbitrators have met Nicolau before and could be miffed that the east pilots have not respected their senior members work. Knowing that the east pilots have delayed (stolen) 5 years from the west.

Maybe the arbitrator integrate the west list much higher up the combined list while sliding down the east list somewhere near the bottom just to make up for the last 5 years of childish and dishonorable behavior.

You guys have seen what an arbitrator can do when he has no emotional tie to a list. Throw in that the east pilots have insulted their senior and most respected member and disrespected the entire arbitration process. Using two list could be very costly for the east pilots.

You know you are not going to get DOH so any other method is possible.

Could it be that usapa outsmarted themselves by allowing that line about current listS? It precludes a single DOH list from usapa. However the Nicolau is also a current list just waiting for a joint contract. Notice it does no say east west list it says currently in effect.

This will never go to arb. It will be in everyone's best interest to negotiate a deal.
I think it's already been done.
Cheers.

 

[Claxon]

This is Marty's last hurrah. I doubt he is going to get any traction, but the second he does (even perceived) the merger behemoth will prevail. Those that need to act will. As I have said before, Parker is NOT going to let any more seniority shenanigans upset his goal to helm the world's largest airline.

The West Class has been outmaneuvered. They mistakenly followed Harper's advice to ALL vote for the MOU, counting on a phantom ripeness trigger. Unfortunately, they failed (just like Judge Wake) to consider the previous actions of a North Carolina Judge (Conrad) who de facto reaffirmed ripeness as the COMPLETION of a JCBA No JCBA, no injunction relief.

In fact, they also ignored the Ninth. Again, no ratified JCBA, no ripeness. So the POR will come and go, and all have agreed on the new MOU protocol for seniority integration. The previous method of uncompleted integration (LOA 96) goes "poof." New method, still no ripeness. Game over (once again) for the NIC zombie.

Checked on Wings today, I still see no joint East and West seniority list posted.

Greeter

You are correct Greeter. Marty was out maneuvered again. Just like his premature ripeness. The westerners have been ambushed again by legal stupidity. The MOU vote was Parker's way of ending the war.

 

[nevergiveup]

You have it all figured I guess. usapa managed to out maneuver the west. Yes very smart.

Using your own logic the MOU can't change the current listS.

Referring to the presidents latest message:



How is usapa going to change from listS to the required single DOH list? You say the MOU prevents that.

So by your ligic the best usapa can do is present two lists to be integrated with the APA list. Are you sure you want that to happen? Perhaps the arbitrators have met Nicolau before and could be miffed that the east pilots have not respected their senior members work. Knowing that the east pilots have delayed (stolen) 5 years from the west.

Maybe the arbitrator integrate the west list much higher up the combined list while sliding down the east list somewhere near the bottom just to make up for the last 5 years of childish and dishonorable behavior.

You guys have seen what an arbitrator can do when he has no emotional tie to a list. Throw in that the east pilots have insulted their senior and most respected member and disrespected the entire arbitration process. Using two list could be very costly for the east pilots.

You know you are not going to get DOH so any other method is possible.

Could it be that usapa outsmarted themselves by allowing that line about current listS? It precludes a single DOH list from usapa. However the Nicolau is also a current list just waiting for a joint contract. Notice it does no say east west list it says currently in effect.

All three current lists in effect are DOH . Two of them can be found on wings.usairways.com.

 

[cleardirect]

All three current lists in effect are DOH . Two of them can be found on wings.usairways.com.

If you are going to make an untrue statement at least make it a little difficult to prove you wrong.

1789 GIBELLINO, ROGER G. 6/30/1986 19633
1790 SESSA, MICHAEL J. 6/30/1986 12324
1791 BREEGER, DONALD F. 9/25/1978 12456
1792 TRAYLOR, JOHN B. SIC 7/28/1986 0
1793 CARMICHAEL, PERLEY J. 7/28/1986 78820
1794 OAKES, ROBERT L. SIC 7/28/1986 50145
1795 HOWARD, NEIL K. 7/28/1986 600

Mr. Breeger has a DOH of 9/25/1978

How is it that the "gold standard" union would allow him to be placed junior to a 1986 hire? any plans on righting the wrong?

The east list is not DOH.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

If you are going to make an untrue statement at least make it a little difficult to prove you wrong.

1789 GIBELLINO, ROGER G. 6/30/1986 19633
1790 SESSA, MICHAEL J. 6/30/1986 12324
1791 BREEGER, DONALD F. 9/25/1978 12456
1792 TRAYLOR, JOHN B. SIC 7/28/1986 0
1793 CARMICHAEL, PERLEY J. 7/28/1986 78820
1794 OAKES, ROBERT L. SIC 7/28/1986 50145
1795 HOWARD, NEIL K. 7/28/1986 600

Mr. Breeger has a DOH of 9/25/1978

How is it that the "gold standard" union would allow him to be placed junior to a 1986 hire? any plans on righting the wrong?

The east list is not DOH.

Waste of time to tell you again. But....Breeger's place on the list was ratified in a JCBA prior to the US Air merger. Is it called his “DOH?” I am not sure. Was it his ratified place on the PI list, Yes. The list PI presented to the arbitrator was the one used in the integration. Unless you are moving scabs to the bottom of the list (UAL 1985) you cannot reorder previously ratified lists. But you know that. And you obviously had the above tidbit already locked and loaded in your seniority battle spank bank, ready to pounce

AWA and U do not have, nor have ever had a ratified joint list. Your data will be presented in the talks/arbitration with APA according to our (read: your) CBL.

Since you still have never merged before, your list should be pure DOH. No worries for you!

Greeter

 

[usa1]

TWA pilots want to know?

What is going to happen to the TWA captains that have been captains for more than 15 years, but have a seniority number of about 6,000 and a hire date of 1988?
American cannot speculate on the outcome of the seniority integration process. The MOU provides that, if the merger is approved, the new company and committees representing the interests of the pilots will conduct a seniority integration process that complies with the federal McCaskill-Bond legislation. That process would begin with negotiations, but if the parties are unable to achieve a single seniority list through those discussions, the matter would be submitted to arbitration as outlined in the legislation. For more information on the anticipated timeline for seniority integration and other processes, please refer to Merger 101 on new Jetnet.

 

[nevergiveup]

If you are going to make an untrue statement at least make it a little difficult to prove you wrong.

1789 GIBELLINO, ROGER G. 6/30/1986 19633
1790 SESSA, MICHAEL J. 6/30/1986 12324
1791 BREEGER, DONALD F. 9/25/1978 12456
1792 TRAYLOR, JOHN B. SIC 7/28/1986 0
1793 CARMICHAEL, PERLEY J. 7/28/1986 78820
1794 OAKES, ROBERT L. SIC 7/28/1986 50145
1795 HOWARD, NEIL K. 7/28/1986 600

Mr. Breeger has a DOH of 9/25/1978

How is it that the "gold standard" union would allow him to be placed junior to a 1986 hire? any plans on righting the wrong?

The east list is not DOH.

I stand corrected. I do see that by not using the Nic, the senior AWA pilots could fair much better and not be stapled beneath the top 500 at AAA. Perhaps there was a good reason to vote away the Nic after all.

 

[nevergiveup]

So if the Nic is currently in effect, then which list(s) are not currently in effect. It obviously can be the ones we are currently using!

 

[Portly Dorman]

It's settled, let's start a new discussion.....

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11851932/1/us-airways-west-pilots-we-wont-back-down-on-seniority.html

Jim Garbett • 3 hours ago

• 
  

Hello there Ted: You know, I have at least nine years left before I retire from USAirways / American. As a wise man once said: It takes a LONG TIME to win in court ~ an EVEN LONGER time to loose.
With McCaskill-Bond now Federal Law and the "Nicalau Award," being "awarded under a defunct CBA, Case Law and NOW Federal Law dictates that the groups be merged by slotting based on DOH. PERIOD!
From my perspective the AWA boys will bring Legal Action well into the future; probably until they get REAL tired of paying their attorneys. At the end of the day, in my opinion, there ISN'T a judge on the face of the earth that will grant them an injunction to stop the USAirways / AA merger ~ there's just TOO much money to be made for the boys on Wall Street.
Just my two cents of course.

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[snapthis]

It's settled, let's start a new discussion.....

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11851932/1/us-airways-west-pilots-we-wont-back-down-on-seniority.html

Jim Garbett • 3 hours ago

• 
  
  
  

Hello there Ted: You know, I have at least nine years left before I retire from USAirways / American. As a wise man once said: It takes a LONG TIME to win in court ~ an EVEN LONGER time to loose.
With McCaskill-Bond now Federal Law and the "Nicalau Award," being "awarded under a defunct CBA, Case Law and NOW Federal Law dictates that the groups be merged by slotting based on DOH. PERIOD!
From my perspective the AWA boys will bring Legal Action well into the future; probably until they get REAL tired of paying their attorneys. At the end of the day, in my opinion, there ISN'T a judge on the face of the earth that will grant them an injunction to stop the USAirways / AA merger ~ there's just TOO much money to be made for the boys on Wall Street.
Just my two cents of course.

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Here is how he is going to feel after chasing the DOH pipe dream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6GuEswXOXo

 

[Beancounter]

It's settled, let's start a new discussion.....

http://www.thestreet...-seniority.html

Jim Garbett • 3 hours ago

• 
  

Hello there Ted: You know, I have at least nine years left before I retire from USAirways / American. As a wise man once said: It takes a LONG TIME to win in court ~ an EVEN LONGER time to loose.
With McCaskill-Bond now Federal Law and the "Nicalau Award," being "awarded under a defunct CBA, Case Law and NOW Federal Law dictates that the groups be merged by slotting based on DOH. PERIOD!
From my perspective the AWA boys will bring Legal Action well into the future; probably until they get REAL tired of paying their attorneys. At the end of the day, in my opinion, there ISN'T a judge on the face of the earth that will grant them an injunction to stop the USAirways / AA merger ~ there's just TOO much money to be made for the boys on Wall Street.
Just my two cents of course.

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"Case Law and NOW Federal Law dictates that the groups be merged by slotting based on DOH. PERIOD!" Is this guy really that dumb and clueless or just flat out lying?

Bean