Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

This entire LUP you have grabbed on to is a red herring, designed to keep you funding Marty as he tilts at windmills. The three part standard for a DFR has not changed. The definition of ripeness in our situation has gone to SCOTUS and been upheld..and now Marty thinks he is going to rewrite the definition of DFR to include the "intent" of pilots creating a union, creating an organization was voted in by a majority. Good luck with that, you cannot sue for a DFR based on what some individual(s) did, thought, or even said before the organization even existed. You especially cannot speak as to the "intent" of every party that voted in USAPA, including yes or no votes in PHX and LAS.

You can only sue after an ACTION , and only then win if the action of the charged party was outside the range of reasonableness. No LUP required. Wake did not allow the jury to know that EVERY group on both our properties was going DOH. He did not allow the jury to know that USAPA was the only union even offering conditions and restrictions. As to East pilots running the union, there is no such distinction at USAPA. In fact, you have elected reps and are participating in our Committee structure. You have more votes than DCA.

If you had a real case here it would already be in the courts. You don't, and we all are laughing waiting to see what Marty's last "Hail Marty" will be. If it is anything resembling your twisted logic here on this forum, we are going to be laughing even harder.

Greeter

Let me understand your logic. In your mind you think that two federal judges placed in their orders the term legitimate union objective and legitimate union purpose so that Marty could continue to get paid. Is that your contention?

SCOTUS did not uphold anything. They simply decided like hundreds of cases not to hear it.

Marty is not rewriting anything. He is reacting to the orders from federal judges.

Do you think that a federal judges order can just be ignored because you don't agree with it or don't have the answer?

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED the Clerk of Court shall enter judgment dismissing
Counts I and III of the complaint and in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II
of the complaint stating US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach
its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose.

This is the order. Nowhere in there is it contingent on...anything.

There is nothing in her order about intent or reason for voting or anything. All she said was if usapa wants to use a seniority list other than the Nicolau they have to have a very good reason. That reason BTW needed to be in place September 2008. So it should be no secret, or be concerned about ripeness.

The west keeps asking but no one will answer the question.

What is the LUP?

There is the order in it's entirety. Do you read something in that order that allows usapa not to have a LUP?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Let me understand your logic. In your mind you think that two federal judges placed in their orders the term legitimate union objective and legitimate union purpose so that Marty could continue to get paid. Is that your contention?

SCOTUS did not uphold anything. They simply decided like hundreds of cases not to hear it.

Marty is not rewriting anything. He is reacting to the orders from federal judges.

Do you think that a federal judges order can just be ignored because you don't agree with it or don't have the answer?



This is the order. Nowhere in there is it contingent on...anything.

There is nothing in her order about intent or reason for voting or anything. All she said was if usapa wants to use a seniority list other than the Nicolau they have to have a very good reason. That reason BTW needed to be in place September 2008. So it should be no secret, or be concerned about ripeness.

The west keeps asking but no one will answer the question.

What is the LUP?

There is the order in it's entirety. Do you read something in that order that allows usapa not to have a LUP?

So now you are telling me you have a date for LUP..September of 2008? Really. Did Silver say that?

Federal Judges can indeed be "ignored." Judge Wake and his circus is on full ignore. And just so you are clear, SCOTUS not hearing the case means they accepted the ruling of the Ninth on ripeness. That is how they roll, not hearing it upholds the Circuit court ruling.

By the way, in MY opinion, the LUP, were it required..is "Date of Hire with Conditions and Restrictions..." You know the drill.

Greeter

 

[cleardirect]

So now you are telling me you have a date for LUP..September of 2008? Really. Did Silver say that?

Federal Judges can indeed be "ignored." Judge Wake and his circus is on full ignore. And just so you are clear, SCOTUS not hearing the case means they accepted the ruling of the Ninth on ripeness. That is how they roll, not hearing it upholds the Circuit court ruling.

By the way, in MY opinion, the LUP, were it required..is "Date of Hire with Conditions and Restrictions..." You know the drill.

Greeter

The jury in the Addington case found usapa liable of DFR. Failure to use the Nicolau. No LUP. That case was overturned on ripeness not the merits.

Judge Silver read that case and once again told usapa they need a reason not to use the Nicolau so yes ultimately usapa had to have an LUP in Sept 2008.

No judges can't be ignore. usapa is not ignoring a federal judge a different order was issued. So Judge Silvers order can't be ignore. Unless the ninth decides that the case is ripe and she can decide. But I don't think you east pilots would like her ruling.

SCOTUS not hearing a case means nothing. They do not agree or disagree with their ruling. It just means that they chose not to look at it further. The ninth gets overturned all the time. Does that mean SCOTUS should review all the ninths cases?

Finally DOH with C&R is not an LUP, it is an outcome that you want. Once again judge Silver said that if you want to use any other seniority list besides the Nicolau you need an LUP. DOH is not a reason it is a dream.

Again what is the legal reason for not using the Nicolau list? What is usapa's LUP for ignoring final and binding arbitration?

Simple question. Call your reps, call the lawyers, call the officers. If we are going into the next seniority integration don't you think we should know which list it will be? If the lawyer or reps or officers can't answer the simple question that is going be asked at trial or arbitration than the only list usapa can present is the Nicolau.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

The jury in the Addington case found usapa liable of DFR. Failure to use the Nicolau. No LUP. that case was overtunred on ripeness not the merits.

Judge Silver read that case and once again told usapa they need a reason not to use the Nicolau so yes ultimately usapa had to have an LUP in Sept 2008.

No judges can't be ignore. usapa is not ignoring a federal judge a different order was issued. So Judge Silvers order can't be ignore. Unless the ninth decides that the case is ripe and she can decide. But I don't think you east pilots would like her ruling.

SCOTUS not hearing a case means nothing. They do not agree or disagree with their ruling. It just means that they chose not to look at it further. The ninth gets overturned all the time. Does that mean they should review all the ninths cases?

Finally DOH with C&R is not an LUP, it is an outcome that you want. Once again judge Silver said that if you want to use any other seniority list besides the Nicolau you need an LUP. DOH is not a reason it is a dream.

Again what is the legal reason for not using the Nicolau list? What is usapa's LUP for ignoring final and binding arbitration?

Simple question. Call your reps, call the lawyers, call the officers. If we are going into the next seniority integration don't you think we should know which list it will be? If the lawyer or reps or officers can't answer the simple question that is going be asked at trial or arbitration than the only list usapa can present is the Nicolau.

You are sputtering....

 

[cleardirect]

You are sputtering....

OK let me be very clear.

DOH with C&R is an outcome not an LUP/

What is usapa's LUP for not using the Nicolau. You have not answered my question yet.

Feel free to ask any of the usapa officials for help.

 

[nevergiveup]

Do you realize I say the same thing because east pilots keep saying the same stupids things and I am just correcting your error.

You do not just want want you brought. You want what came after the merger.

You do not just want a 7 years fences. You want a 7 years fence then DOH.

You do not want what is fair you want all the contract and all the seniority.

You say that the west has an entitlement attitude and that we should wait. Yet it is the east that cries we want to go first and you can have what is left years from now.

It is really very simple. You just cannot grasp the concept. We agreed to final and binding arbitration. The west is not going to compromise, give concessions or even talk about changing the Nicolau award.

Until you understand that and live under the Nicolau award I will not stop. You are gong to hear it everyday or you can leave the board and not listen.

I just worry about you. Using the Nic in Phx still works for me!

 

[cleardirect]

I just worry about you. Using the Nic in Phx still works for me!

Using the Nicolau at all bases works for me.

 

[Claxon]

You probably exceed that 5333 demented rants because over the years you have posted under numerous psuedonyms. Claxon-Nostradamus-Sumadartson......

I guess you don't fly much, at least at USAirways, since you avow you're not employed there, and post as often as Clear. Which brings me to your pathological interst in all things USAirways/USAPA. What IS your game?

And for all those East pilots hooked on Date of Hire.....you're no closer either.....and if you believe APA is going to further your cause, as George Strait would sing- "I've Got Some Oceanfront Property in Arizona".....

You and Silverman are opportunists. You took DOH with a smile, then threw your co workers under the bus.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The jury in the Addington case found usapa liable of DFR. Failure to use the Nicolau. No LUP. That case was overturned on ripeness not the merits.

You guys keep going back to that jury case.

Ok, granted the Ninth overturned on ripeness only. The appeals judges really had no choice once it became apparent to them that the case should never have been heard in the first place.

I was extremely disappointed that the ripeness issue kept the Ninth from ruling on merits. Wake's shenanigans left little room for that jury to find otherwise, since they were denied by Wake's rulings all the facts, evidence and information.

Wake should thank his lucky stars that the Ninth found a ripeness issue and didn't dig deeper. He got off with a wrist slap, when it should have been a sound butt-kick.

Bring on the next jury. Yawn.

 

[PullUp]

As agreed to in the MOU, the 'lists' currently in effect cannot be changed by the MOU/MTA or the JCBA. As agreed to in the MOU, the only way the seniority lists in effect now can be modified in through the negotiation and arbitration process defined by the MOU and M/B.
Ripeness, for the purposes of a DFR lawsuit, will not occur until the SLI is completed.
The argument that the Nic list should be used is negated by the MOU agreement which states that the current lists (plural) cannot be changed.
Once the MOU/MTA becomes our working agreement on the effective date, all other agreements cease to exist. The Nic required a joint contract between east and west to become effective. That has not happened, and will not happen. Since the triggering event lives in the current TA, the Nic dies along with the nullification of all east and west agreements on the effective date.
The west voted 98% for the MOU and the merger.
All talk of TROs stopping the merger are just talk. There is no ripeness until injured. The west's claims to the Nic died when the MOU changed the terms of how seniority will be determined in the LCC/AA merger.
The west is just tryng to use meaningless threats to gain status that they willingly voted away.
Very entertaining.
Cheers.

 

[cleardirect]

You guys keep going back to that jury case.

Ok, granted the Ninth overturned on ripeness only. The appeals judges really had no choice once it became apparent to them that the case should never have been heard in the first place.

I was extremely disappointed that the ripeness issue kept the Ninth from ruling on merits. Wake's shenanigans left little room for that jury to find otherwise, since they were denied by Wake's rulings all the facts, evidence and information.

Wake should thank his lucky stars that the Ninth found a ripeness issue and didn't dig deeper. He got off with a wrist slap, when it should have been a sound butt-kick.

Bring on the next jury. Yawn.

You guys keep perpetuating this myth that Wake was biased or that he did something wrong.

usapa did accuse Wake at the ninth, all those were put in the appeal.

Third, the trial was unfair. The district court was biased and tainted jury deliberations by instructions that misstated law to the point of compelling a verdict. The district court also made evidentiary and other errors all of which cumulatively deprived USAPA of a fair trial. Among other rulings, the district court:
1) prohibited USAPA from challenging the process, procedure, or decision of the Nicolau Award,
2) prohibited the introduction of evidence concerning how all of the other US Airways’ unions adopted a date-of-hire approach,
3) directed the jury that it could not consider a preference for honoring date-of-hire seniority as a legitimate union objective,
4) prohibited the jury from considering the independent merits, or biases, of ALPA Merger Policy, and 5) refused to properly instruct the jury that a finding of “bad faith” required a finding of “fraud, deceitful action or dishonest conduct.”

Those are serious charges of judicial misconduct. If they were true why didn't usapa follow up with charges? Do you think that every person that files an appeal thinks the judge was biased and gave them an unfair trial?

usapa got back in front of Wake after the appeal and called them on their accusations. Granth backed away quickly when asked direct questions about exactly why usapa thought Wake was biased. When given a chance he could not give a single reason other than he did not like the result.

Read the transcript yourself.

This false accusation of bias is BS.

It is not bias because the court ruled against you. The court ruled against you because usapa and the east pilots are wrong.

 

[usa1]

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11851932/1/us-airways-west-pilots-we-wont-back-down-on-seniority.html

 

[Claxon]

Using the Nicolau at all bases works for me.

Former America west pilots want what they never brought to the merger- longevity and wide bodies. Marty Harper and Lyingitas on another fools errand. They will be denied, again.

 

[Claxon]

You guys keep going back to that jury case.

Ok, granted the Ninth overturned on ripeness only. The appeals judges really had no choice once it became apparent to them that the case should never have been heard in the first place.

I was extremely disappointed that the ripeness issue kept the Ninth from ruling on merits. Wake's shenanigans left little room for that jury to find otherwise, since they were denied by Wake's rulings all the facts, evidence and information.

Wake should thank his lucky stars that the Ninth found a ripeness issue and didn't dig deeper. He got off with a wrist slap, when it should have been a sound butt-kick.

Bring on the next jury. Yawn.

Wake is a total moron.

 

[EastUS1]

Using the Nicolau at all bases works for me.

What a surprise! Gee!...I wonder why that would be?....Couldn't be due to some obscene and wholly absurd windfall?....Naah, that couldn't be it....Could it? Oh well. Now kid...All you've got to do is convince everyone outside of PHX to agree with that. Heck! I'm sure that DFW alone will be first to join you in singing "Ding Dong, The Nic is it!" MIA is certain to shortly follow DFW in seceding from the union of sanity.

I've even heard rumours that the APA's currently screenng world class sculptors to ensure that all AMR domicles can establish sacred shrines to St. Nic himself. After all; the foremost focus of all concerned with this merger is ensuring the happiness and well being of a handful of AWA people.

'Rotsa 'Ruck junior.