Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[dca319]

Really? Were the merits fully heard at the appeal level or did they pretty much stop at "not ripe"?

You think we would have won an appeal? Now that's sad.

 

[PullUp]

Thank you for pointing out the west's case is now ripe. You're finally catching on. See you in court.

Not ripe. Over. There is no case because you ratified an agreement that nullifies all previous agreements and substitutes new ones.
Therefore, your claim to Nic, which is ensconced in the T/A, will also be void.
All both east and west have are what there is now. Two lists, two contracts, separate ops under the T/A.
That will never change until the effective date, then it will disappear.
Will Nic ever be implemented? Nope.

 

[PullUp]

By ratifying this MOU, the LCC pilots have collectively given up on ever reaching an agreement with LCC management on a joint west-east contract to consummate the 2005 merger. Inclusive of this, the seniority integration process is abandoned also.
The clock will be reset to zero on the effective date, when two pilot groups with two seniority lists and two contracts willingly give all that up to join the AA ranks. Separate ops to be maintained until the SLI is completed.
The west has no claim for damages due to overwhelmingly approving abandoning their previous agreements in favor of these new ones.
It's a loser, guys. Save your money.

 

[prechilill]

Not ripe. Over. There is no case because you ratified an agreement that nullifies all previous agreements and substitutes new ones.
Therefore, your claim to Nic, which is ensconced in the T/A, will also be void.
All both east and west have are what there is now. Two lists, two contracts, separate ops under the T/A.
That will never change until the effective date, then it will disappear.
Will Nic ever be implemented? Nope.

So, let me get this straight. You say that we no longer have any agreements (highlighted section at the top), then claim that we have what we currently have (second highlight). So, which is it? Do we have a completely new contract or not? When you make up your mind and stick to one side of the argument, let us know.

 

[PullUp]

So, let me get this straight. You say that we no longer have any agreements (highlighted section at the top), then claim that we have what we currently have (second highlight). So, which is it? Do we have a completely new contract or not? When you make up your mind and stick to one side of the argument, let us know.

Will you read the friggin document?
At the effective date when the MTA becomes effective, the MOU spells out separate ops until SLI is complete.
R E A D for understanding. I recommend it.
sheesh.

 

[PullUp]

Sorry, I cannot. The MOU says nothing about replacing anything, or the makeup of the final result. It only speaks to a new process. Are you in?

Greeter

By default, yes he is, because of the overwhelming westie approval of the MOU.

 

[Pi brat]

What do I think the purpose of the company's letter to the NMB was?

To let the NMB exactly who is to blame for the delay. Read through the letter. The company is telling the NMB that it is usapa being unreasonable and refuses to put an end to the seniority issue. The company offered two options. Willingly go to court and allow a judge to settle this or get a contract and settle seniority later. Usapa (east pilots) are refusing both options. The option usapa is demanding puts the company square in a law suit and liability. That option also puts the work of the NMB and the negotiators at risk of being overturned. No one likes to waste their time when all but one party understands the result.

This letter also lays out the option for usapa members if the BPR had released the letter. Two options. Settle seniority once and for all or never get a contract. The company said the west is willing to let a court decide. Usapa refuses. Usapa has delayed and used procedural tricks (ripeness) to avoid an answer. Why would usapa do that? Because they know the answer and a delay gains east pilots the most.

Eventually this letter was going to come out and the east pilots would see that they could have had a contract if the usapa leadership has done the responsible thing.

The company is also making a record that they do not want to get sued. So when the Nicolau does go into place they can point to this letter and the court filings and tell usapa too bad just protecting the corporation. Anywhere in that letter do you see where the company is afraid of the east pilots or usapa if they don’t use DOH? I see a lot of references to law suit from the west.

This letter is about telling the NMB that the company is done dealing with the childish antics of usapa. This is big boy rules and usapa needs to make a decision. Accept your responsibility or sit in the corner forever without a contract. Again what did the NMB do? This letter is discoverable in a DFR. The company is avoiding liability and placing it all on usapa. This letter could also be used by east pilots to sue usapa for failure to perform their required duty to negotiate a contract and improve working condition and pay rates.

Did that answer your question?

Now why do you think the company wrote the letter?

Well, first I have to say I have not read the whole letter, just your snippets. I did a quick look on the USAPA website and cactuspilot.com and didn't see it. Did I miss it or did you get it somewhere else?

But from your snippets and the fact that it is to the NMB, I'd say it's for cover. As you said, they are wanting to lay the blame on USAPA for not getting a contract, and keep the mediator from pushing. I believe the mediator asked all sides for ideas about finishing this up, so I'm guessing that was the reason for the letter. I just don't buy it. Remember the first hearing in Judge Silver's court? She told the company lawyers that they had a ruling from the 9th, that they had to negotiate and she asked them if they had. Something like that, right? Well, they said no, they hadn't because neither side would budge. So they had a ruling saying that we had to get to a JCBA for the question to be ripe, but they had not negotiated.

We'll never know unless someone confesses, but I believe the company attorneys hatched the whole DJ to delay thing to delay negotiations and save money while we recovered from the worst recession since the Great Depression. Look at their actions. They asked for a ruling, and they got one. One of the ones they asked for. She also gave them an out, either way they wanted to go. If they truly believed that USAPA was in the wrong, why not say "Okay, we have a ruling. We have to negotiate, but you have to have a LUP to change the Nicolau award. We don't see any, so what else are we going to do?" I think they didn't do that because that would cost more money and possibly lead to an impasse. If the company was requiring the Nic then the west would no longer be against the east. You would now join the east to get a contract as soon as possible. They very well may join self-help with that. But, if you can keep it in the courts, well, keep the troops divided and the costs low.

I guess we will see what they really think when they reply to AOL's letters and we proceed through the SLI process. But if they really think it has to be the Nic, why did Parker say, twice, that a three way deal may be the way it goes?

 

[Pi brat]

They could care less about a toothless association. We'll handle the paper tiger.

If they "could care less" then they do indeed care. You can't even get a phrase correct.

Sure has taken you a long time to handle that paper tiger. Must be trying to get out of your paper bag first.

 

[Pi brat]

You think we would have won an appeal? Now that's sad.

We? No, I think USAPA would have.

I have no idea, it didn't happen. DFR II would be a new trial, right? Has there ever been a ruling overturned on appeal?

 

[Pi brat]

Will you read the friggin document?
At the effective date when the MTA becomes effective, the MOU spells out separate ops until SLI is complete.
R E A D for understanding. I recommend it.
sheesh.

Give up. It wouldn't do any good if she did.

 

[Pi brat]

So clear. Have you read Hummel's letter? Sure runs counter to the claims in the company's letter to the NMB.

 

[Pi brat]

President's Message

On July 26, 2010, US Airways filed a lawsuit in federal court in Arizona before Judge Silver seeking a declaratory judgment. The action was to determine whether USAPA is required to implement the Nicolau Award or is free to pursue a different seniority proposal. A class of west pilots argued that USAPA was required to implement the Nicolau Award. USAPA argued that it was not required to implement the Nic.

Two years later on October 11, 2012, Judge Silver dismissed counts I and III of US Airways’ claim and entered a judgment in favor of the US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. Her judgment stated that the US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. US Airways, supported by the West Pilot Class, then asked Judge Silver to reconsider her decision. That was denied, and her judgment was reaffirmed in favor of USAPA. On December 31, 2012, US Airways appealed the decision of Judge Silver to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

Yesterday USAPA’s lawyers asked the Ninth Circuit to expedite the appeal filed by US Airways in order to have it decided prior to a merger with APA. We want there to be no uncertainty about whether USAPA can pursue a different seniority proposal pursuant to a merger. USAPA legal counsel is confident that a prompt resolution of this case will result in the Circuit Court again upholding the USAPA position. The West Pilots have indicated that they will oppose a prompt resolution of the US Airways appeal. USAPA’s motion to expedite and supporting papers are posted in the USAPA Legal Library.

During the past several days, the lawyer for the West Pilot Class has sent letters to USAPA, APA and US Airways suggesting that the West Pilots would file a lawsuit to stop the merger unless US Airways implements the Nicolau Award. These letters were fully anticipated by our legal team. USAPA’s position as advised by our legal counsel is that there is no legitimate legal basis for any action to stop the merger. USAPA is fully prepared to defend whatever legal action might be filed that would jeopardize the merger.

Our union, our lawyers and our merger counsel have been advised that USAPA will begin the seniority integration process with APA by pursuing what Article I, Section 8 D of our Constitution requires, “To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.”

This merger provides substantial and life changing benefits to all USAPA pilots, including those based in Phoenix. USAPA will aggressively oppose any efforts to slow down or stop the merger process and will be equally vigilant in adhering to our constitutionally mandated principles that reject the Nicolau Award in its entirety.

 

[cleardirect]

It simply sickens me when people or organizations out right and openly lie. The President of the so called pilot union has just published a bold face lie.

Is usapa (east pilots) so desperate and unethical that they have to lie?

Presidents update.

On July 26, 2010, US Airways filed a lawsuit in federal court in Arizona before Judge Silver seeking a declaratory judgment. The action was to determine whether USAPA is required to implement the Nicolau Award or is free to pursue a different seniority proposal. A class of west pilots argued that USAPA was required to implement the Nicolau Award. USAPA argued that it was not required to implement the Nic.

Two years later on October 11, 2012, Judge Silver dismissed counts I and III of US Airways’ claim and entered a judgment in favor of the US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. Her judgment stated that the US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. US Airways, supported by the West Pilot Class, then asked Judge Silver to reconsider her decision. That was denied, and her judgment was reaffirmed in favor of USAPA. On December 31, 2012, US Airways appealed the decision of Judge Silver to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

Yesterday USAPA’s lawyers asked the Ninth Circuit to expedite the appeal filed by US Airways in order to have it decided prior to a merger with APA. We want there to be no uncertainty about whether USAPA can pursue a different seniority proposal pursuant to a merger. USAPA legal counsel is confident that a prompt resolution of this case will result in the Circuit Court again upholding the USAPA position. The West Pilots have indicated that they will oppose a prompt resolution of the US Airways appeal. USAPA’s motion to expedite and supporting papers are posted in the USAPA Legal Library.

During the past several days, the lawyer for the West Pilot Class has sent letters to USAPA, APA and US Airways suggesting that the West Pilots would file a lawsuit to stop the merger unless US Airways implements the Nicolau Award. These letters were fully anticipated by our legal team. USAPA’s position as advised by our legal counsel is that there is no legitimate legal basis for any action to stop the merger. USAPA is fully prepared to defend whatever legal action might be filed that would jeopardize the merger.

Our union, our lawyers and our merger counsel have been advised that USAPA will begin the seniority integration process with APA by pursuing what Article I, Section 8 D of our Constitution requires, “To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.”

This merger provides substantial and life changing benefits to all USAPA pilots, including those based in Phoenix. USAPA will aggressively oppose any efforts to slow down or stop the merger process and will be equally vigilant in adhering to our constitutionally mandated principles that reject the Nicolau Award in its entirety.

Regards,

Gary Hummel - President

The last two paragraphs from the letter sent to the APA and the Company.
Clearly the west did not say that we are trying to stop the merger. In fact the letter said we support the merger.

The west pilots supported this merger from the start, have no interest in delaying it now, and have no doubt that your clients favor legitimate seniority integration. That said, the West pilots must do whatever is needed to defend the Nicolau Award.

I look forward to any suggestions you may have as to how that can be accomplished without a third round of litigation.

Is there anyone at usapa that can actually read and understand the written word?

 

[cleardirect]

So clear. Have you read Hummel's letter? Sure runs counter to the claims in the company's letter to the NMB.

Hummel's letter is filled with lies. I detest liars.


The company claimed that usapa did not want a ruling from the court. usapa filed to dismiss for reasons of ripeness. Provable lie by usapa.

Hummel said the west threatened to stop the merger. Provable lie by usapa. Read the letter to the parties.

The facts point to usapa having the counter view point.

 

[doh nogo]

The protocol is already established within the MOU.....
breeze

Awe... look who's back after his late night childish meltdown.

You have been online all night, then wait till a guy signs off for the night, then try to hammer him....weak dick, junior FO!

Just another example of how the West is out to screw the East pilots.....we have to watch our 6s 24/7......they are always wanting to screw us.
breeze

To which I responded:

Typical narcissistic, self-important, east pilot who can't stand letting anyone else have the last word.

Do you have any idea what an id!ot you look like? You SAY you're signing off at 1030, but after midnight you're still around, post after post after post. Just so you can have the last word. And you point the finger at others??? Not to mention how childish you sound to reprimand a person who DARES post a rebuttal after you leave the room... on a public forum that runs 24 hours a day. Then you reference "junior FO" as if your name on a list somehow makes you more important than others. WOW! You really DO have an extremely over-inflated ego, don't you?

Well here's a news flash for you... You can have the last word all you want on this forum if it helps you sleep at night. The west will have the last LEGAL word when the SLI is finally complete. You can mark my words and then tell me how wrong I am then. OK sunshine?

And by the response I got, looks like many people here agreed with me.

You feeling better today, sunshine?