Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nevergiveup]

Legally, under the RLA, USAPA is the exclusive representational agent for all US Airways pilot. There is no East/West list when it comes to the MOU. The companies are neutral (see Kirby telling Steve Gay at the West pilot meeting). The conditions that the combined APA/USAPA list must meet are the same in both the T/A as they are in the MOU.

The companies are neutral, otherwise.

AOL/West pilot class has no legal standing to propose anything. That is why they are suiing.

They are trying to force USAPA to use the Nicolau award and that that is not what Silver said.

Oh, BTW, unions always have a DFR to its members. It is not correct to add "legitimate union purpose" in that context. It is and always has been implied. Arbitrary, discriminatory and/or bad faith are the only three prongs of any argument under the RLA.

If I were Szymanski, they should be arguing at appeal with the company that they decide it once and for all. Kill shot.

I know the MOU says lists, but you may be correct. I bet they will find some way around a single list. Every APA pilots I've had on the jumpseat has been in favor of doh and fences.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Letter sent to USAPA attorney, Pat Szymanski on March 26, 2013​

Dear Pat:
No one involved with Leonidas, LLC, or the West Pilot class has any interest in enjoining the actual merger with American Airlines. None of them have filed such an action or intend to file or authorize any such action. In fact, the West Pilots want the actual merger to proceed as quickly as possible, but insist that the pilot integration process proceed in a legitimate and lawful manner. They believe that USAPA's DFR and the Ninth Circuit opinion and the opinion of Judge Silver require utilizing the Nicolau Award at the beginning of that process. USAPA disagrees. One way or another, this DFR dispute must and will be resolved before there can be seniority integration between US Airways and American pilots.

Then why the threatening letters to AMR/APA?

Rather than cooperate with obtaining a final resolution of the DFR dispute, USAPA filed a groundless action in the Southern District of New York. The Bankruptcy Court has no jurisdiction to decide a claim like this that does not involve the debtor, AMR and does not threaten AMR's reorganization. Moreover, no matter how you strain to draw a threat to enjoin the actual American Airlines merger from my prior correspondence, USAPA has no standing to assert that the West Pilots are attempting to interfere with AMR's emergence from bankruptcy. That can only be asserted by the Debtor AMR, who has shown no interest in doing so or in otherwise delaying resolution of the DFR dispute.

Read your letters and cactuspilot.com, Marty!

The flaws in USAPA's adversary claim cannot be repaired by amending the complaint to name as defendants the plaintiffs who filed a third round of litigation in the District of Arizona on March 6, 2013 (the "Arizona Plaintiffs") because the SONY does not have jurisdiction over the DFR issue. The Bankruptcy Court is not going to interfere in the Arizona action. The Arizona District Court will be rightly offended if you name the Arizona Plaintiffs as defendants in the New York action. Unions should not be suing its members in an effort to silence their voices.

You file the third round of litigation and the Arizona District Court is offended at USAPA? Who is defending ITS legal rights under the RLA? Marty implies USAPA is suiing it's "members". So in fact AOL IS a corporation made up of West pilots, correct?

A series of federal courts have held that USAPA must have a legitimate union purpose to repudiate the Nicolau Award. At some point a federal court will determine whether USAPA has such a purpose in the context of the American Airlines merger. If USAPA wants to avoid delaying the pilot integration process, it should work with us to get the DFR dispute resolved in Arizona Federal Court before the POR date. As a first step, I invite you to dismiss the New York action.

Who is US? AOL? Posinelli/Shugart? West pilot class? You and yours said after the new union got in there is no longer anyone to work with! West pilot class/AOL/Posinelli/Shugart are the extortionists of the twenty first century.

 

[Claxon]

Then why the threatening letters to AMR/APA?


Read your letters and cactuspilot.com, Marty!


You file the third round of litigation and the Arizona District Court is offended at USAPA? Who is defending ITS legal rights under the RLA? Marty implies USAPA is suiing it's "members". So in fact AOL IS a corporation made up of West pilots, correct?



Who is US? AOL? Posinelli/Shugart? West pilot class? You and yours said after the new union got in there is no longer anyone to work with! West pilot class/AOL/Posinelli/Shugart are the extortionists of the twenty first century.

Take this for exactly what it is. Leonidas' last gasp. They have nothing left to do but throw the entire plate of spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. The entire mess could have been avoided had they come off their ill gotten windfall. Now they will suffer the fate of the unreasonable. A simple NO from Scott Kirby summed it all up.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I know the MOU says lists, but you may be correct. I bet they will find some way around a single list. Every APA pilots I've had on the jumpseat has been in favor of doh and fences.

It says "lists" because there can only be two "lists" that can be legally used. Subject to the limitations the "companies" have made in para 10, APA gives their certified data to USAPA and vice versa. Each of those two parties propose a combined list to each other. If they agree, it will probably go out for a rank and file vote to solidify it. If not, the arbitrators get it.

I'm guessing on the vote but my guess is that would be the way I would play it.

The West pilot class/AOL/Posinelli/Shugart are suiing for USAPA to use the Nicolau award.

Pat should go in for the kill shot with the companies appeal to the 9th and get his ruling then. He had the opportunity with Silver but I think he blew it.

The only hope WPC/AOL/POS has is the courts and the door is closing.

What I HOPE Pat would argue with the Ninth is that the Nicolau award is legally invalid for NOT using longevityDOH throughout the award thereby discriminating against the pilots at the former US Airways. Discrimination affected the East pilots, not the West. Avoiding the IS a legitimate union objective.

WPC/AOL/POS. pretend union wannabes.

 

[Graceson]

Letter sent to USAPA attorney, Pat Szymanski on March 26, 2013​

Dear Pat:


Rather than cooperate with obtaining a final resolution of the DFR dispute, USAPA filed a groundless action in the Southern District of New York. The Bankruptcy Court has no jurisdiction to decide a claim like this that does not involve the debtor, AMR and does not threaten AMR's reorganization. Moreover, no matter how you strain to draw a threat to enjoin the actual American Airlines merger from my prior correspondence, USAPA has no standing to assert that the West Pilots are attempting to interfere with AMR's emergence from bankruptcy. That can only be asserted by the Debtor AMR, who has shown no interest in doing so or in otherwise delaying resolution of the DFR dispute.

No jurisdiction?

The court may find a majority of west pilots agreed to a new process of SLI (MOU), thus agreeing to abandon outstanding motions, if and only if there is an effective date which will validate mutual agreement to pursue an equitable SLI through this new process.

The motion in NY is to halt a minority of west pilots who wish to interfere with the merger by violating the agreement with frivolous lawsuites that will directly delay the agreed upon SLI process and thus negatively effect merger synergies as per the POR.

 

[traderjake]

The company has a DOH list as well that was given to them.

Where's the contract that specifies a single DOH seniority list?

USAPA can negotiate one (maybe), they can't unilaterally impose one.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Sounds like the AOL lawyer figures once the POR hits and activates the MOU any real chance he has at his case is flushed down the toilet.

I still think once the MOU is in full effect no court in the country is going to touch an agreement that 75% ish voted for total and 98% of the west voted in favor of. Especially given the deadlock of the last 7 years or so. The language of the MOU is plainly written and i don't see how a court is going to interpret it any other way than it is written.

My opinion is that as far as the court is concerened once the MOU pops the awa/US merger never happened. No seniority list integrations happened, no contract integrations happened, no pay parity happened, neither pilot group ever operated the others aircraft, no integrated base bid ever occured, and the list goes on.

In fact the ONLY thing that the east and west have ever agreed on in the last 5 years is the MOU. If I were a Judge, that would tell me all I needed to know about the case in front of me. As long as something from the MOU is not voilated such as USAPA putting forward anything other than the 2 current active seniority lists as they appear now, I don't see a court touching it.

Will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

 

[Zone5]

Concern for status, class, and category instead of DOH/LOS.

Somebody is starting to see the handwriting on the wall.

You do realize that "status, class and category" are determined by DOH/LOS, not in lieu of it, right?


seajay

 

[traderjake]

You do realize that "status, class and category" are determined by DOH/LOS, not in lieu of it, right?

Not according to the last four pilot seniority arbitrations.

 

[Phoenix]

You do realize that "status, class and category" are determined by DOH/LOS, not in lieu of it, right?


seajay

Yes, unless there is a system bid of all LCC pilots at the POR, based on Nic....

"No." --- Scott Kirby

On the other hand, no one bothered to beg Doug to have a DOH system bid at the POR. Some folks are smart enough to see where this is going and aren't embarrassing themselves in public.

 

[snapthis]

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
Don ADDINGTON; et al.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
US AIRLINE PILOTS ASS’N, et al.,
Defendants.
CASE NO. 2:13-CV-00471-PGR
Motion For Class
Certification.
Plaintiffs

A. Class Definition​

The proposed “West Pilot Class” is comprised of approximately 1,600 individuals. (Doc. 1 ¶ 87). It is defined as: “All pilots who are on the America West seniority list currently incorporated into the West Pilot’s collective bargaining agreement.” (Id. ¶ 86). All class members: (1) have a right to implementation of the Nicolau Award (id. ¶¶ 39-48); (2) are owed a DFR by USAPA to implement the Nicolau Award (id. ¶ 62); and (3)suffer from breach of that duty (id. ¶¶ 97-99).​

B. Class-Wide Remedies / Issues​

Plaintiffs seek the following declaratory relief on behalf of the West​

Pilot Class:​

(1) USAPA must have a legitimate union purpose to enter​

into a CBA that does not order the seniority of the US​

Airways pilots according to the Nicolau Award;​

(2) The MOU is a CBA that does not order the seniority of​

the US Airways pilots;​

Case 2:13-cv-00471-PGR Document 11 Filed 03/25/13 Page 7 of 15​

(3) USAPA breached its DFR because it entered into the​

MOU without having a legitimate union purpose;​

(4) USAPA has unequivocally repudiated its duty to order​

the seniority of the US Airways pilots according to the​

Nicolau Award in the process of creating a integrated​

pilot seniority list for New American;​

(5) USAPA breached its DFR because it unequivocally​

repudiated that duty without having a legitimate union​

purpose; and​

(6) US Airways is jointly liable under hybrid claim doctrine​

for entering into the MOU

 

[dca319]

Well, then....let USAPA do its job and see if it turns out in accordance with Judge Silver's words, or not. THEN sue USAPA...when it is ripe.

The worsties are doing all they can to hold things up and delay making the situation ripe? Why?

On top of that, they accuse USAPA of delaying things when THEY are the ones filing the lawsuits that are dragging this out.

If they are so confident in winning on LUP and getting gazillions in damages, what exactly is the hurry to the court room door for?

Actually, USAPA is the one trying to delay everything.

 

[Crzipilot]

I can't imagine a LUP would be to break the stalemate over the NIC, and at the same time be able to further the careers/earnings/and security of all their union members. But then again I have yet to see a true definition of a LUP.

 

[Zone5]

Yes, unless there is a system bid of all LCC pilots at the POR, based on Nic....

"No." --- Scott Kirby

On the other hand, no one bothered to beg Doug to have a DOH system bid at the POR. Some folks are smart enough to see where this is going and aren't embarrassing themselves in public.

There will NOT be any "system-wide" bid for at least a couple of years from today. Not until after the POR, the JCBA and the SLI processes are completed. In the meantime, the West can continue to enjoy their sandbox, which will work out to about 10 years in "purgatory", enjoy! No planned "mainline" growth in PHX. Don't forget that 75 bid!

The East, on the other-hand will continue to utilize their DOH/LOS derived seniority to define their individual "status, class and category" to reap the benefits of East attrition and planned growth, even you Trader!


seajay

 

[nic4us]

Not true. The company has a DOH list as well that was given to them. It was just the issue of which list has more longevity. But since you don't care about longevity then it shouldn't have any bearing, now should it?

Not true....

I believe the company returned uscaba's DOH list at the bargaining table and told them NFW.

I also think, during Addington, the company testified that it never accepted the DOH list, and that it has continually met it's contractual obligations, accepted the Nic, and remained neutral on seniority integration.