Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Bill Brasky]

That's funny. If I remember right, everytime the west said, "what kind of modifications to the Nic do you want?" The east slid over a DOH list with modifications. YOUR all or nothing DOH demands is what ended us up in the arbitration in the first place!

Bean

You remember wrong then. It was the west that walked out of the Wye River talks, and against the advice of your lawyers, as well.

 

[Claxon]

You remember wrong then. It was the west that walked out of the Wye River talks, and against the advice of your lawyers, as well.

MEC Chairman’s Message

February 8, 2008

This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a chairman’s message to the pilots for Friday, February 08, 2008.

After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks. At this time they are not prepared to address seniority implementation issues, specifically, mitigating the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.

Recall that we met to determine if we had enough common ground between us on important issues to come up with a comprehensive counterproposal for both MECs to review. As we told you, this counterproposal would have to adequately address not only all open JNC issues, but more importantly for the AAA pilots, pay parity and seniority protection. We came to the neutral site at Wye River, MD with these goals in mind, and within these goals we developed certain thresholds needing to be achieved for the benefit of the US Airways pilots. Despite what you may have heard or read, none of that changed during the meeting.

While we respect what the AWA pilots were there to accomplish, the US Airways MEC’s position remains the same and our MEC’s Steering Committee members did not compromise that position. We never wavered from our goal of protecting you from the Nicolau Award, and our threshold for meeting those goals never changed.
I’ll be calling the MEC into session for a special meeting next week. While there is no comprehensive counterproposal to bring back to the MEC, they'll receive a briefing on the process, and I plan to add two other items to the agenda: developing a distribution methodology for 2007 Profit Sharing and Stock Options and to review an agreement extending the timeframe for filing disputes concerning flow-through issues.

The MEC will now review our options. Keep in mind that the odds of any plan we develop succeeding are greatly diminished by members of this MEC continuing to cower behind their fear of failure and seeking to sabotage any process we elect to pursue. You can see that all of the noise and accusations coming out of PHL Council 41 about the work of our Steering Committee was unfounded and disingenuous. When it came time to meet directly with our AWA counterparts, we did exactly what we said we would, AAA pilots working with AWA pilots trying to mitigate the damages of the Nicolau Award.

Excuses and alibis will not replace leadership. We made a promise, and we kept it. There was no cramdown, no end-run deal, no deal chasing and no back room conspiracies. I hope you did not fall for these contrived ideas spread in order to try and scare you. The majority of this MEC and your MEC officers are not afraid of failure. We said we were going to look under every stone to find solutions and we meant it. My only fear is that some of our MEC fear the search may actually produce something that would require them to lead rather than criticize. I can tell you that the majority of your MEC was willing to continue the search. Although this process has not worked so far, we are no worse off for engaging in the exercise.

You would have been extremely proud of our team of pilots who met at the Wye River Conference Center. These are men of honor and integrity and they are most importantly, men of their word. Their commitment to the process and to you was rock solid. Threats and intimidation attempts by some minority disenchanted MEC members and paper tigers did not sway these men of honor from pursuing the direction that the majority of the MEC had set. They did their best trying to reach a solution to the Nicolau Award. At this time the AWA pilots are unwilling to address our seniority concerns. Again, we are no worse off for having engaged in this process. We remain right where we started and that is in separate operations with the West.
I thank you for your patience during the past few weeks. I know it’s been difficult. There will be other options at our disposal after the MEC gets the chance to strategize internally next week. While conditions and opportunities may change, the goal has not and our threshold for success has not. Our mission remains the same, to protect you from the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.

 

[fatherabraham]

FA,

The snapshot is taken from sometime between the announcement and the date of the POR. The merger between AWA and US already happened and that snapshoot was taken long ago. The timeline for the AA/US merger is still ongoing.

Bean

Bean,

So as I put myself in an AMR pilot shoes, you don't think I'm gonna stop....think a second.....and ask why I am potentially handicapped from get go in an arbitrated sli because you considered yourself at XX relative seniority in 2005 and that's the start point.
Me thinks you are being extremely wishful .

FA

 

[Claxon]

ALPA, United and its chameleon seniority policy.


[font="Arial""]May 4, 2010[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]Fellow United Pilots,[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]On Monday morning, United Airlines announced a merger with Continental Airlines. This letter is intended to provide information on the merger process and to let you know that the UAL Merger Committee is well-prepared to deal with this announcement. The Committee has a wealth of experience and diversity, and is well-suited to represent the interests of all United pilots. [/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]We appreciate that a merger can create confusion and anxiety, and in that light we want to communicate with you about the salient points of ALPA Merger Policy and how we’ve prepared to work through an integration of the pilot seniority lists. But first, it is essential to a complete understanding of Merger Policy to understand the most recent seniority integrations and apply the lessons learned from those mergers to increase our opportunities for success.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]

[font="Arial""]US Airways and America West[/font]​

[font="Arial""]In accordance with Merger Policy at the time of the US Airways (East) and America West (West) merger, the two pilot groups pursued a dual track approach that entailed negotiating a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA) while simultaneously going through the process of integrating the seniority lists.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]As provided for by ALPA Merger Policy, the two groups’ merger committees worked through negotiation, then mediation, in an effort to reach an integrated seniority list. Because they were unable to reach agreement, they proceeded to arbitration - the final step of Merger Policy. Each merger committee selected a pilot neutral from the list of ALPA Pilot Neutrals to serve on the Arbitration Board along with professional arbitrator, George Nicolau. As expected, there were great differences in the groups’ concepts of a fair and equitable merger. In basic outline, the East pilots proposed a Date of Hire integration, adjusted for length of service, subject to further conditions and restrictions (equipment fences) that would push the most senior West pilots down the seniority list, and inserted many furloughed East pilots above active West pilots. They did not move off that position throughout the process despite urging from the arbitrator. The West pilots proposed integrating the lists based on a series of ratios with all the furloughed US Airways pilots and some active pilots on the bottom of the list. [/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]The Board held hearings for weeks and, months later, issued its decision. In its Opinion and Award, the Board integrated the seniority lists by reserving a number of positions (commensurate with the staffing of the A330 and B767) at the top of the list for the former East pilots on the theory that the West pilots did not have expectations to fly widebody equipment. The remainder of the list was an integration of active pilots through ratios derived from fleet and seat data. The Board also created a “fence” around the A330 and B767 flying, making those positions available only to East pilots for a period of four years, although those fences were to disappear – and did – if mandatory retirement was moved from 60 to 65. The former East pilots who were on furlough were placed at the bottom of the active list.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]The Nicolau Award was accepted by the merged company but was never implemented. A majority of the pilots at the new US Airways (LCC) voted to change their bargaining agent to the US Airways Pilot Association (USAPA). A USAPA founding document tenet provides that seniority lists are to be integrated on a Date of Hire basis, however, to date, that has not been achieved. Changing bargaining agents resulted in terminating substantive talks on the JCBA. To this day, five years after the announced merger, LCC operates as two independent entities with two separate seniority lists, and both pilot groups are still working under their concessionary agreements. With litigation ongoing over the seniority list, LCC management has had little incentive to negotiate a follow-on agreement. Furthermore, the airline’s constriction coupled with the failure to integrate the lists has resulted in furloughs of the West pilots.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]

[font="Arial""]Delta and Northwest[/font]​

[font="Arial""]The Delta/Northwest merger applied a different approach, based in part on the lessons learned from the US Airways/America West merger. There were some significant differences: the pilot groups were able to leverage professional relationships with the managements to expedite exchange of economic data that formed the basis for moving forward. The management teams conditioned the merger on the smooth and expeditious transition to an integrated pilot seniority list (Integrated System Seniority List or ISSL) and a JCBA. Unfortunately, although the two pilot groups and the prospective merged company were able to reach agreement on what would become a JCBA as well as an equity stake in the new enterprise, they were unable to reach agreement on the ISSL for months. When consensual agreement on an ISSL could not be achieved, the Delta pilots successfully modified and extended their CBA along the lines tentatively agreed to previously for both pilot groups and as well captured an equity stake. On that basis, the merger was executed. When the Delta pilots reached that agreement, the companies announced their intention to move forward with the merger. Shortly thereafter, the parties were able to negotiate a transition agreement that paved the way for the eventual ratification of a JCBA for both the Delta and Northwest pilots and to a process agreement that restarted the seniority integration process under the auspices of three impartial arbitrators.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]In the seniority integration arbitration, the Delta pilots proposed a 7-group Status and Category ratio approach that they argued preserved each pilot group’s pre-merger career expectations. The Northwest pilots proposed an integration based on Date of Hire with conditions and restrictions. In the alternative, they proposed a “Dynamic Seniority List” concept that would create fixed seniority “slots” for each pre-merger pilot group and would populate those slots with only the active pilots from their respective groups, in seniority order. As vacancies arise through attrition, the more junior pilots in the respective group would advance to the more senior vacant slots. [/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]In its Opinion and Award, the Board rejected both Northwest’s DOH and Dynamic List approaches. Instead, it adopted Delta’s Status and Category methodology but based on four categories (widebody captains, narrow body captains, widebody FOs and narrow body FOs) rather than seven. Remember that a Status and Category methodology is only concerned with the number of positions brought to the arbitration, not to individual pilots’ current equipment bid position. The Board also incorporated a Pull-and-Plug mechanism to accommodate the Northwest pilots’ assertion that their higher rate of attrition from retirements should be taken into account. This methodology resulted in removing the oldest 274 Northwest pilots from the Northwest pre-merger list, applying the ratios to the remaining pilots and reinserting the removed pilots directly above the next junior Northwest pilot thereafter. The Board also added some conditions and restrictions that created five year fences around each group’s respective premium aircraft (B777, B747, and B787).[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]

[font="Arial""]The New Merger Policy[/font]​

[font="Arial""]Subsequent to the LCC/AWA merger, the ALPA Merger Policy Review Committee was charged with a review of Merger Policy to reflect lessons learned. After 18 months of work, and with input from pilots involved in the Delta/Northwest merger, the Committee drafted a new Merger Policy which was approved by the Executive Board in May 2009.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]The new policy emphasizes the three major components necessary to fully complete a merger:[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]• a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA) and a possible transition agreement,[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]• an integrated seniority list, and[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]• a merged MEC, representing a unified pilot group.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]The integration of seniority lists is now viewed as one step in the more comprehensive merger process. The merger is a transaction consisting of the seniority integration process, the contract negotiation process, the ratification process and the transition process, all leading to a single pilot group and one MEC.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]Under the new Merger Policy, merger committee representatives’ role is to make a strong and focused effort to resolve seniority integration issues, with mediation and final and binding arbitration mandated on unresolved issues. Factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list in no particular order and with no particular weight include but are not limited to: career expectations, longevity, status and category. [/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]There are also changes to the seniority list arbitration process. Hearings are now limited to a maximum of 15 nine-hour days of hearings. The default makeup of the Arbitration Board is a panel of three arbitrators, though the merging MECs may agree to revert to a panel of one arbitrator and two pilot neutrals. In the interest of fostering open communications between MECs, new policy language discourages arbitrators from admitting MEC communications as evidence. [/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]What has not changed is that the Integrated Seniority List is not subject to ratification by either MEC or pilot group. Another constant is a pilot’s position relative to his pre-merger brother or sister pilot: your internal relative seniority cannot be changed.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]

[font="Arial""]Our Merger’s Timeline[/font]​

[font="Arial""]Now that there has been a merger announcement, there is a concise timeline and an orderly process to prepare for integrating the seniority lists.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]At the Merger Announcement Date (May 3, 2010), the Merger Committee can begin updating and verifying the employment data of all our pilots. After we have collected the data, we will post the information electronically so that you can validate the data we have collected. If you disagree with the findings with respect to your employment data, you must contest the findings within 20 days of receiving notice from us, with a written statement of fact to support your protest. That challenge can be transmitted via email, and you can request a hearing with us. Within 10 days of the protest, we will notify you of the decision, using the same transmission medium you used.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]Within 10 days of the May 3 Merger Announcement Date, the UALMEC will designate our negotiating committee members to serve on the Joint Negotiating Committee for the purpose of jointly negotiating transition agreements, if necessary, and the JCBA.[/font]
[font="Arial""]Within 20 days of the May 3 Merger Announcement Date, the Merger Committee will have finalized the selection of the three impartial arbitrators. Additionally, we will forward the employment data to every non-verified and non-updated pilot. We will also post that data electronically.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]It’s now important to reemphasize that the revised ALPA Merger Policy states that negotiations for the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement should be scheduled consistent with the high priority goal of concluding the JCBA prior to the date for conclusion of the seniority list integration process. [/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]

[font="Arial""]Our Furloughed Brothers and Sisters[/font]​

[font="Arial""]By design, the Merger Committee is composed of pilots from across our domicile network and from cross-sections of our seniority list. Pursuant to the UALMEC Policy Manual, our committee must include a pilot from the bottom 25 percent of our seniority list. The important perspective this position carries has not been lost. When we first met as a committee, we realized that one of the greatest challenges we would face was our work on behalf of our furloughed pilots. Past seniority integration arbitration awards have generally placed at least some pilots on furlough as of the date of the merger announcement at the bottom of the integrated list. While past decisions aren’t “binding” on future cases – each of which will turn on its own facts - and while ALPA Merger Policy has changed since those decisions were issued, we would be less than candid with you if we did not point out this historical treatment of furloughed pilots in seniority list integration arbitrations. That said, we are committed to advancing the interests of ALL our pilots – those who are active and those who are on furlough. [/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]Subject only to the caveat that experience in seniority integration arbitration tells us that to be effective with the arbitrators we have to maintain credible positions supported by facts and logic rather than emotion, we will advocate in the strongest terms for all of our pilots and our furloughed pilots are no exception. We pledge to communicate with you frequently, openly and candidly: it may not always be what you want to hear, but it will be the unvarnished truth. Please remember, however, we must communicate with you without compromising our strategies deployed on your behalf. We take very seriously our charge to represent the entirety of our seniority list. We will use all means to defend the United pilots, and we will leave no stone unturned in our pursuit of the best integration possible. We will communicate with you again soon, and are fortified by your keen interest.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]Traditionally, no subject is more sacred to an airline pilot than his/her seniority. It is critical for all of us to remember, especially during times of uncertainty, that there is and will continue to be a lot of noise and confusion on the line. In this instance, that noise and confusion stems directly from the many hypothetical seniority scenarios promulgated by those who claim to be in the “know.” They may even claim that certain methodologies are more relevant than others. We urge you to resist the temptation to succumb to the noise. Those of us who have been thinking about seniority integration in general and an integration with Continental in particular - including your Merger Committee and its supporting professionals who have participated in all of the recent merger activity in the industry - are unwilling to “predict” at this early stage how the integration will turn out. It is thus surely the case that those who are more distant from the process have no special insight into that result. That said, there is one thing we can say with certainty: no integrated list will be constructed, either by agreement or by an arbitrator, that would change the order of flight deck crew members on their own respective seniority lists. The bottom line is that ALPA Merger Policy is explicit in what the Seniority Arbitration Board is to use to consider the facts of the case.[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]In Unity,[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]
[font="Arial""]Your[/font][font="Arial""] Merger Committee[/font]
[font="Arial""]F/O Jeff Ruark, Chairman[/font]
[font="Arial""]Captain Steve Gillen <<< AWA AAA pilot nuetral, slotting then, longevity no[/font]w
[font="Arial""]Captain Bill Bales[/font]
[font="Arial""]F/O Dan Madruga[/font]
[font="Arial""] [/font]

 

[Beancounter]

Bean,

So as I put myself in an AMR pilot shoes, you don't think I'm gonna stop....think a second.....and ask why I am potentially handicapped from get go in an arbitrated sli because you considered yourself at XX relative seniority in 2005 and that's the start point.
Me thinks you are being extremely wishful .

FA

It has nothing to do with wishfull thinking and what the AMR pilots think won't change reality. You can try and change the seniority list, but you can't change the past or the reality that the AWA/US merger snapshot for seniority happened back when our merger happened. I know it's wishfull thinking for you the east that you can just take a current snap shot and ignore the arbitration, because it greatly benefits you. Good luck with that, I don't think the APA will touch that with a ten foot pole.

Bean

 

[Walmartgreeter]

It has nothing to do with wishfull thinking and what the AMR pilots think won't change reality. You can try and change the seniority list, but you can't change the past or the reality that the AWA/US merger snapshot for seniority happened back when our merger happened. I know it's wishfull thinking for you the east that you can just take a current snap shot and ignore the arbitration, because it greatly benefits you. Good luck with that, I don't think the APA will touch that with a ten foot pole.

Bean

Bean, I really feel for you buddy. Everything you post is a tragedy of misconceptions and untruths. Scott Kirby just told you there was no &ldquo;list.&rdquo; In fact you just voted in favor, by 98%, for a document that referenced &ldquo;lists.&rdquo; Plural. Where exactly does this &ldquo;list&rdquo; exist if you are not bidding CLT, and we are not bidding PHX?

As to a &ldquo;snapshot&rdquo; that is not a legal term. It&rsquo;s a tool maybe used in seniority integrations by respective Merger Committees. If APA and USAPA decide to use such a tool, they will agree to a date, standard, or premise for a &ldquo;snapshot&rdquo;..if that even ends up being the correct term.

Are you aware that over 1000 APA pilots took early retirement prior to current events? Do you really think APA would agree to a snapshot taken 7 or 8 years ago? I doubt it. And at the end of even an expedited seniority integration between APA and USAPA two years from now just USAPA will have retired over 400 pilots, APA almost 270. Do you really think either party wants a pre-dated snapshot, for any reason? I don&rsquo;t.

Both our Merger and NAC counsel gave us all some great advice in the discussions on the first MOU. Don&rsquo;t base your decisions on the worst that can happen. Base them on the most likely.

Good luck.

Greeter

 

[Beancounter]

Bean, I really feel for you buddy. Everything you post is a tragedy of misconceptions and untruths. Scott Kirby just told you there was no &ldquo;list.&rdquo; In fact you just voted in favor, by 98%, for a document that referenced &ldquo;lists.&rdquo; Plural. Where exactly does this &ldquo;list&rdquo; exist if you are not bidding CLT, and we are not bidding PHX?

As to a &ldquo;snapshot&rdquo; that is not a legal term. It&rsquo;s a tool maybe used in seniority integrations by respective Merger Committees. If APA and USAPA decide to use such a tool, they will agree to a date, standard, or premise for a &ldquo;snapshot&rdquo;..if that even ends up being the correct term.

Are you aware that over 1000 APA pilots took early retirement prior to current events? Do you really think APA would agree to a snapshot taken 7 or 8 years ago? I doubt it. And at the end of even an expedited seniority integration between APA and USAPA two years from now just USAPA will have retired over 400 pilots, APA almost 270. Do you really think either party wants a pre-dated snapshot, for any reason? I don&rsquo;t.

Both our Merger and NAC counsel gave us all some great advice in the discussions on the first MOU. Don&rsquo;t base your decisions on the worst that can happen. Base them on the most likely.

Good luck.

Greeter

You can't make the list go away. Anything you do will be compared to that list. Just because the list is currently not in use does not mean there was never an arbitration and an outcome. Why it's so hard for you guys to understand that is beyond me.

I understand why you think there doesn't have to be a snapshot. With your plan of DOH and including the furloughs it makes a snapshot irrelevant. The west, the company, and the APA though have told you that's not going to fly.

Why do I feel like it's ground hog day? I can remember having a discussion on a crew van prior to the Nic coming out. I remember stating that there was no way it could be DOH. The east pilot got angry and rattled off a whole slew of stuff. Now I'm not saying I knew what the Nic was going to be, but I knew what it wasn't going to be.

I think I'm going to take a break from the board for a while. I've found talking to American pilots is far more constructive. Best of luck.

Bean

 

[algflyr]

...As soon as the NMB declares APA my bargaining agent. All thing usapa end. The C&BL become invalid. The reps are no longer reps. My dues no longer go to CLT. The bargaining position of usapa ends.

Clear, You may want to do a little research on this...

First, I don't think any East pilot thinks that anyone other than the APA will be the new bargaining agent of the new American Airlines. And "If" a representational vote were to be held, I believe the majority of East pilots would vote for the APA as the Union...

I appears that you think when the APA becomes the agent, that USAPA just goes away completely on the date APA becomes the agent. That is not true. The new agent will be declared before the SLI is complete, but I assure you, even though APA becomes the agent for the whole group, USAPA will still be the party representing the US Airways pilots during SLI negotiations. USAPA will go away, but not all at once as you believe... Some parts will remain until everything is completed.

And as far as the Reps not being Reps anymore... I believe the current Reps for CLT, PHL, DCA and PHX will still be the Reps for those domiciles under the APA. New elections may have to happen, but those bases won't go un-represented in the new airline...

It will be interesting to see exactly when our dues monies will shift from going to CLT to DFW, but I suspect it will be later than you think...

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, You may want to do a little research on this...

First, I don't think any East pilot thinks that anyone other than the APA will be the new bargaining agent of the new American Airlines. And "If" a representational vote were to be held, I believe the majority of East pilots would vote for the APA as the Union...

I appears that you think when the APA becomes the agent, that USAPA just goes away completely on the date APA becomes the agent. That is not true. The new agent will be declared before the SLI is complete, but I assure you, even though APA becomes the agent for the whole group, USAPA will still be the party representing the US Airways pilots during SLI negotiations. USAPA will go away, but not all at once as you believe... Some parts will remain until everything is completed.

And as far as the Reps not being Reps anymore... I believe the current Reps for CLT, PHL, DCA and PHX will still be the Reps for those domiciles under the APA. New elections may have to happen, but those bases won't go un-represented in the new airline...

It will be interesting to see exactly when our dues monies will shift from going to CLT to DFW, but I suspect it will be later than you think...

By what authority does the former bargaining agent remain in part? when usapa was declared the bargaining agent how much of ALPA and how long did they hang around?

By what authority does usapa have a right to collect dues money after the APA is declared the bargaining agent?

Once APA is declared the bargaining agent the usapa C&BL are invalid. usapa will represent no one. usapa will have no members.

Where did you get the idea, what lawyer told you that usapa will continue in some form or part?

 

[prechilill]

You can't make the list go away. Anything you do will be compared to that list. Just because the list is currently not in use does not mean there was never an arbitration and an outcome. Why it's so hard for you guys to understand that is beyond me.

I understand why you think there doesn't have to be a snapshot. With your plan of DOH and including the furloughs it makes a snapshot irrelevant. The west, the company, and the APA though have told you that's not going to fly.

Why do I feel like it's ground hog day? I can remember having a discussion on a crew van prior to the Nic coming out. I remember stating that there was no way it could be DOH. The east pilot got angry and rattled off a whole slew of stuff. Now I'm not saying I knew what the Nic was going to be, but I knew what it wasn't going to be.

I think I'm going to take a break from the board for a while. I've found talking to American pilots is far more constructive. Best of luck.

Bean

Very good post

 

[nevergiveup]

Clear, You may want to do a little research on this...

First, I don't think any East pilot thinks that anyone other than the APA will be the new bargaining agent of the new American Airlines. And "If" a representational vote were to be held, I believe the majority of East pilots would vote for the APA as the Union...

I appears that you think when the APA becomes the agent, that USAPA just goes away completely on the date APA becomes the agent. That is not true. The new agent will be declared before the SLI is complete, but I assure you, even though APA becomes the agent for the whole group, USAPA will still be the party representing the US Airways pilots during SLI negotiations. USAPA will go away, but not all at once as you believe... Some parts will remain until everything is completed.

And as far as the Reps not being Reps anymore... I believe the current Reps for CLT, PHL, DCA and PHX will still be the Reps for those domiciles under the APA. New elections may have to happen, but those bases won't go un-represented in the new airline...

It will be interesting to see exactly when our dues monies will shift from going to CLT to DFW, but I suspect it will be later than you think...

I wonder if the DCA USAPA reps would remain since APA has a base in DC.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

I wonder if the DCA USAPA reps would remain since APA has a base in DC.

.


Hopefully the two unions will "merge" with a membership vote. These are the types of things that will be included in that agreement. And of course, eventually, APA could indeed just "take over." But let there be no doubt, USAPA will represent US Airways pilots in the SLI process until completion. For those in the West Class, please ask Rocky or Ken about this. I would be interested in hearing their opinions here on the matter.

Greeter

 

[Walmartgreeter]

You can't make the list go away. Anything you do will be compared to that list. Just because the list is currently not in use does not mean there was never an arbitration and an outcome. Why it's so hard for you guys to understand that is beyond me.

I understand why you think there doesn't have to be a snapshot. With your plan of DOH and including the furloughs it makes a snapshot irrelevant. The west, the company, and the APA though have told you that's not going to fly.

Why do I feel like it's ground hog day? I can remember having a discussion on a crew van prior to the Nic coming out. I remember stating that there was no way it could be DOH. The east pilot got angry and rattled off a whole slew of stuff. Now I'm not saying I knew what the Nic was going to be, but I knew what it wasn't going to be.

I think I'm going to take a break from the board for a while. I've found talking to American pilots is far more constructive. Best of luck.

Bean

Sorry to see you go Bean. Make sure you tell the APA guys your plan is to put a 1996 hire ahead of a 1985 hire, and THEN merge with the APA under slotting/relative position. I am sure that will make them happy.

As to the years of "I told you so" on the East position of DOH, remember we had already been through 3 mergers prior to our ill-fated attempt at merging with AWA. One of those mergers was the largest in history. Two went straight DOH and a third, with a small number of EAL guys was slotted by our old friend NIC. It was such a small event very few of us even paid attention to it. And to this day it was never really decided what the DOH was for the EAL guys.

Bad on us, because right under our noses ALPA was already bending to the political whims of UAL and would flip flop on its support of DOH many times in the next few years.

We had to get rid of ALPA, even today they cannot make up their mind on integrations policy. I never understood why AOL gave ALPA a free pass on the entire issue of the NIC. They are the real entity that would not even back up their own policy, but they could not..it was so out of bounds that even ALPA was paralyzed.

They knew it would never be implemented, but had no idea of the resolve of the East pilots. We cleared that up that entire fiasco with USAPA.

Best,

Greeter

 

[end_of_alpa]

You can't make the list go away. Anything you do will be compared to that list. Just because the list is currently not in use does not mean there was never an arbitration and an outcome. Why it's so hard for you guys to understand that is beyond me.

I understand why you think there doesn't have to be a snapshot. With your plan of DOH and including the furloughs it makes a snapshot irrelevant. The west, the company, and the APA though have told you that's not going to fly.

Why do I feel like it's ground hog day? I can remember having a discussion on a crew van prior to the Nic coming out. I remember stating that there was no way it could be DOH. The east pilot got angry and rattled off a whole slew of stuff. Now I'm not saying I knew what the Nic was going to be, but I knew what it wasn't going to be.

I think I'm going to take a break from the board for a while. I've found talking to American pilots is far more constructive. Best of luck.

Bean

It's probably best. AOL has had so many failures attempting to enforce an unenforcable provision of a contract that it causes great consternation among all the rank and file. Funny, but none of us has truly seen the tip of the iceberg.

Wait a few more years. The things labor unions should really focus on are beyond their comprehension. World events are overshadowing our paltry little problem.

The banking systems around the world are in disarray and their coming for your cash here.

http://www.google.com/gwt/x?u=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9952979/Cyprus-bail-out-savers-will-be-raided-to-save-euro-in-future-crises-says-eurozone-chief.html&ei=IZpRUamqNYnWxQLr14CwBg&wsc=bf

IRA, 401K, bank accounts and all assets even here will be stripped from your accounts (just like our plan here to he PBGC) to fund government.

Of course, gun control and heavy government purchases of hollow point ammo by the DHS is preparing for the worst.

http://www.google.com/gwt/x?wsc=bf&u=http://www.infowars.com/video-hundreds-of-dhs-armored-trucks-on-the-move/&ei=Lp9RUfGYJ4juwwLT0oGwBA

If the workers/producers in this nation don't start paying attention, were going to make Cypress, PIGGS and the euro zone look like the Garden of Eden.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

It's probably best. AOL has had so many failures attempting to enforce an unenforcable provision of a contract that it causes great consternation among all the rank and file. Funny, but none of us has truly seen the tip of the iceberg.

Wait a few more years. The things labor unions should really focus on are beyond their comprehension. World events are overshadowing our paltry little problem.

The banking systems around the world are in disarray and their coming for your cash here.

http://www.google.co...Lr14CwBg&wsc=bf

IRA, 401K, bank accounts and all assets even here will be stripped from your accounts (just like our plan here to he PBGC) to fund government.

Of course, gun control and heavy government purchases of hollow point ammo by the DHS is preparing for the worst.

http://www.google.co...YJ4juwwLT0oGwBA

If the workers/producers in this nation don't start paying attention, were going to make Cypress, PIGGS and the euro zone look like the Garden of Eden.

I guess this discussion probably belongs on the Water Cooler section, but I agree. By the way, your 401k and bank accounts are already being "raided" by the government. The Fed policy of low interest rates is robbing you of thousands every year in your accounts, and the funds you do have are constantly decreasing in buying power as new moneys are printed.

Again, sorry for this discussion on the pilot section. But your logic on our little union problems is spot on.

Greeter