Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

Good bye USAPA.

You seem to have an aversion to the majority being the majority.

Hello APA baby!

 

[Phoenix]

Two entirely different things.

Representation.

Seniority integration.

Learn the difference..

Sure they are two different things and that is exactly why the judges haven't meddled, and why the banned the West class from meddling.

 

[Zone5]

How do you know how much time I have on my side?

I don't. Perhaps I made an incorrect assumption based on your vociferous and oft stated point of view in these matters. Regardless, allow me to re-state my post:

"Not to worry, I'm plenty "use to the right seat" and with the new pay raise, my PBGC and Military checks, I think I will be OK! So will you. (DELETED: what with time being on your side."

I'll mark you down in the greedy dirtball category and we will both just go our "separate" ways, at least for the next 24-30 months, after which it won't matter to me one wit."

Not much of a change, but for the sake of accuracy, there you have it.

Another subject, as I see it, the basis of the DRFII complaint is that, Marty has now convinced you that it is ripe because of a failure to recognize a "Transition Agreement implied covenant" regarding the original East-West TA, that is somehow also "implied" in the MOU. Talk about smoke, mirrors and black magic! "Implied covenant"?, really... is that the best you can come up with? Good luck with that, maybe you can talk the 9th into letting you bring a palm reader and a UFO sighting "expert" in to "testify" what the "implications" of the original East-West TA are, with regard to the MOU. :blink:


seajay

 

[Graceson]

...It is ripe. Simple question. Does the MOU require the Nicolau like the T/A does? No then usapa failed in its duty.

If the SLI of a previous agreement is understood to be folded over and survives the MOU without specifically stated as such, then what other TA sections previously agreed to with management can we also assume and therefore demand the company honor. When previous agreements are voided on an effective, can we still cherry-pick former TA sections we like.

 

[Pi brat]

Right next to section 25 scheduling. Ya know the part that has us all on PBS now and the part that governed the last system bid that finally lets UHaul live within walking distance of his favorite chicken kitchen.

No PHX, it right beside the crew meals I now get, the long rate I now get, the extra vacation I get, the long rate I now get(so good I included it twice)and the fact that none of those things will go away should this merger fail like so many others have. Oh. Wait a minute..........

 

[Claxon]

It's staring you straight in the face Moron. How about you read the very title of your new agreement, "Memorandum of Understanding Regarding Contingent Collective Bargaining Agreement" Just below that it names USAPA as the sole bargaining agent this agreement is applicable to regarding the PIlots of US Airways....no East....no West...just USTUPID. The references of a JCBA in the rest of the agreement are between USTUPID and APA....no East.....no West....by default, and every letter of the RLA, USAPA is one entity....no East...no West....Just USTUPID.

Now, imagine standing in front of a Judge and explaining that in fact this entire agreement is flawed because it failed to address the fact that you were under the impression that USAPA was actually two groups of pilots...independent of eachother but with the one single "union" and the single carrier status from years ago. See, this is where the company was steering this thing. Just because it's a "Contingent" CBA doesn't mean it isn't Joint as it applys to East and West. I'm still wondering who the 24 West idiots were that voted against this...guess they didn't get the message from AOL. Probably because they're the 24 that haven't donated. Oh well.

Turns out the 24 were the smartest of the lot. You know, the ones who don't vote lockstep with the jihadists of Leonidas who get led around by Mrs. Harper.
Don 't worry Metro. Jesus still loves you. The rest of us.......

 

[Walmartgreeter]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Since we supposedly have a "ratified" JCBA with an SLI, then why is LEO initially suing USAPA? Why not first approach the Company and ask them why they have not published the list. And demand a joint bid. Why waste the money in court if a solution is there for the asking, or at worst in a grievance? Any pilot can file a personal grievance. [/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']We all know why. Nobody wants the Company's answer.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font]

 

[Pi brat]

I was responding to an east poster that said Parker told him the west was going to do such and so. Now you point to Parker saying such and so.

What is it? Do you take Parker at his word or just the stuff you believe?

When Parker said that the east without the merger would have closed the doors do you believe him?

Absolutely, as far as he went. US needed a capital infusion. They had some of it in place, but not quite enough. The merger with AWA brought in the rest of it and it also brought other benefits that allowed the restructured US to succeed. The west system allowed some of our previously unprofitable flying to become profitable. It allowed us to gain access to corporate accounts that were previously out of our reach because of the domestic hole in our route structure. Because US was in Chp 11 he could walk away from a lot of our fleet and replace it with Ho-Jo colored RJs. Did you ever see how the top management's former AWA stock options worked out for them? Made a lot of former AWA management very rich.

But here is the kicker- it did that and more for the former AWA. Just look at admission to the Star Alliance. The capital that was raised mostly by Lakefield paid off the AWA ATSB loan.

Bottom line is that Nicolau erroneously treated US as if they HAD shut down. They didn't. Parker was smart enough to see the value and that vision has now lead him to the best seat at the largest airline in the world. Something he never would have achieved absent the US merger.

 

[Pi brat]

I've read the west class complaint that asserts that USAPA has now made their DFR breach ripe by way of the ratified MOU because they failed to expressly state that the NIC will be used for SLI negotiations with the APA. But I just don't see how a district court judge under the jurisdiction of the Ninth will be convinced that the harm to the west is now ripe when it was expressly determined to be not ripe prior to the MOU ratification. Where's the smoking gun evidence that shows USAPA has crossed the DFR ripeness line and that US Airways was a co-participant in that breach, thus showing collusion on Management's part? If I'm not convinced, why will a new federal judge be convinced given how reticent Silver was to provide relief on the DJ (which has entirely different and more tolerant standards for ripeness) than a DFR?

Also, given the known backlog in the Arizona district courts, why not file this in NC where USAPA has already been given an injunction in rather speedy fashion for violation the status quo?

Your post didn't get too much action CG. I guess it wasn't too controversial. ;-)

I don't see it either, but I have scratched my head on this court stuff before. We'll see.

 

[Pi brat]

I don't. Perhaps I made an incorrect assumption based on your vociferous and oft stated point of view in these matters. Regardless, allow me to re-state my post:

"Not to worry, I'm plenty "use to the right seat" and with the new pay raise, my PBGC and Military checks, I think I will be OK! So will you. (DELETED: what with time being on your side."

I'll mark you down in the greedy dirtball category and we will both just go our "separate" ways, at least for the next 24-30 months, after which it won't matter to me one wit."

Not much of a change, but for the sake of accuracy, there you have it.

Another subject, as I see it, the basis of the DRFII complaint is that, Marty has now convinced you that it is ripe because of a failure to recognize a "Transition Agreement implied covenant" regarding the original East-West TA, that is somehow also "implied" in the MOU. Talk about smoke, mirrors and black magic! "Implied covenant"?, really... is that the best you can come up with? Good luck with that, maybe you can talk the 9th into letting you bring a palm reader and a UFO sighting "expert" in to "testify" what the "implications" of the original East-West TA are, with regard to the MOU. :blink:


seajay

h. US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for
changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in
this Paragraph 10


'Please Judge, I didn't know what I was voting for despite the fact that one of the guys I have been paying helped write it!"

 

[Walmartgreeter]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']The West Class still does not have a ripe case. Having ratified the MOU, and having had 50% of the positions on the NAC, they knew exactly what they were doing. They followed the legal pied piper yet once more, this time down a final dead end.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Pure logic and timeline is now the defining entity as to anything NIC, pesky non ripe lawsuits included[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']No DFR is ripe on seniority until a JCBA. But first comes the POR, and at the single instant in time, LOA 96 SLI is replaced by a new SLI process. The West Class agreed to that. The union chose a new path to break the stalemate, and got everyone a big raise. Sounds like a LUP to me! But no judge even looks at it for at least a year, until a JCBA.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']There may be a sliver of hope if the Company gets on board and publishes a single list and has a system bid. Or if the Merger somehow fails. Good luck, no chance of either.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Sleep well East pilots. End game.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font][/font]

 

[EastUS1]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']The West Class still does not have a ripe case. Having ratified the MOU, and having had 50% of the positions on the NAC, they knew exactly what they were doing. They followed the legal pied piper yet once more, this time down a final dead end.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Sleep well East pilots. End game.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font][/font]

Not so fast! Even as we speak; the mighty "army" of leonidas is preparing for it's final, devastating assault! http://www.airlinefo...&attach_id=9715

 

[cleardirect]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']The West Class still does not have a ripe case. Having ratified the MOU, and having had 50% of the positions on the NAC, they knew exactly what they were doing. They followed the legal pied piper yet once more, this time down a final dead end.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Pure logic and timeline is now the defining entity as to anything NIC, pesky non ripe lawsuits included[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']No DFR is ripe on seniority until a JCBA. But first comes the POR, and at the single instant in time, LOA 96 SLI is replaced by a new SLI process. The West Class agreed to that. The union chose a new path to break the stalemate, and got everyone a big raise. Sounds like a LUP to me! But no judge even looks at it for at least a year, until a JCBA.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']There may be a sliver of hope if the Company gets on board and publishes a single list and has a system bid. Or if the Merger somehow fails. Good luck, no chance of either.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Sleep well East pilots. End game.[/font][/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font][/font]

You east pilots have leaned on ripeness pretty hard.

I think the law suit as filed is ripe.

But even if you are correct and it is not ripe. You even admit that a JCBA makes the case ripe. The JCBA will happen prior to an SLI.

What will the excuse be when we have a JCBA and a ripe case and the APA as the bargaining agent? If a federal judge thinks it is not ripe. Filing did not cost a lot and we wait and collect more money when it becomes ripe. It it is ripe we finally end this. Don't you want this to end? How about usapa waving the ripeness an let a court answer the question?

The end game is the Nicolau is going to be used. Now or sometime in the future. But it will be used.

 

[Claxon]

You east pilots have leaned on ripeness pretty hard.

I think the law suit as filed is ripe.

But even if you are correct and it is not ripe. You even admit that a JCBA makes the case ripe. The JCBA will happen prior to an SLI.

What will the excuse be when we have a JCBA and a ripe case and the APA as the bargaining agent?

The end game is the Nicolau is going to be used. Now or sometime in the future. But it will be used.

Clear is not worried about the outcome at all, just decides to monitor the forum 24/7.

 

[Metroyet]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Since we supposedly have a "ratified" JCBA with an SLI, then why is LEO initially suing USAPA? Why not first approach the Company and ask them why they have not published the list. And demand a joint bid. Why waste the money in court if a solution is there for the asking, or at worst in a grievance? Any pilot can file a personal grievance. [/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']We all know why. Nobody wants the Company's answer.[/font][/font]

[font=Arial'][font=Arial']Greeter[/font][/font]

Because the Company can't fake it's "neutrality if if they did that. Btw, the West is sueing the company right along with USAPA. I know for a fact that the company was fully anticipating this suit from AOL. They weren't just expecting it but counting on it. They need to be told by a Judge what they need to do...even though they're on record many times explaining to the Judge that they know EXACTLY what they need to do but for some reason fail to do it. That decision by DP is going to haunt him. Once the nic is resolved, AOL is going after the company for collusion. Either way, it will cost them millions to explain their bullshit "neutrality"

The company very well may agree to settle. You won't like the terms of the settlement...and when your fake union goes poof into the night, you're on your own. Better start that LLC and organize a fund drive.