Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

Cleardirect is surely the biggest windbag on this forum. I would be embarrassed to spend the time he does.

Does anyone remember Chip.. "Chip the Eclipsed" ?

 

[traderjake]

American Airlines plans to deploy up to 215 large regional jets by 2018

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/03/american-airlines-plans-to-deploy-up-to-215-large-regional-jets-by-2018.html/

 

[cleardirect]

APA update.

APA takes no position on the merits of the dispute between the former East and former West pilots. However, APA has no wish to inherit this dispute in the event of a merger and will push to have it resolved between Mr. Harper’s group and USAPA.

It would seem that the APA understands their obligations when they become the bargaining agent. They understand that just like usapa the APA inherits prior obligations.

The APA does not want the seniority dispute between east and west. What are their choices? Accept the Nicolau no law suit no problem. Use something other than the Nicolau and go to court.

What is the threat from east pilots? You guys will cry? Can't pack up your ball and go home this time. Minority!

 

[algflyr]

It would seem that the APA understands their obligations when they become the bargaining agent. They understand that just like usapa the APA inherits prior obligations.

The APA does not want the seniority dispute between east and west. What are their choices? Accept the Nicolau no law suit no problem. Use something other than the Nicolau and go to court.

What is the threat from east pilots? You guys will cry? Can't pack up your ball and go home this time. Minority!

Clear, I think you are mis-understanding what the APA said. Of course they don't WANT to inherit the dispute. It would be nice if was already decided before they HAD to get involved. It didn't say they WOULD'T get involved... The first sentence of what you quoted clearly said they take "no position" in the dispute...

If they realize the NIC would be worse for their pilots during SLI, do you think they would fight for the NIC??

 

[electricjet98]

APA update.

APA takes no position on the merits of the dispute between the former East and former West pilots. However, APA has no wish to inherit this dispute in the event of a merger and will push to have it resolved between Mr. Harper’s group and USAPA.



It would seem that the APA understands their obligations when they become the bargaining agent. They understand that just like usapa the APA inherits prior obligations.

The APA does not want the seniority dispute between east and west. What are their choices? Accept the Nicolau no law suit no problem. Use something other than the Nicolau and go to court.

What is the threat from east pilots? You guys will cry? Can't pack up your ball and go home this time. Minority!

It would seem APA believes the dispute is ripe...and needs to be settled outside their playground. Kind of gives their opinion of Hummel's/USAPA effort of having the BK Court simply ignore the west.

 

[traderjake]

If they realize the NIC would be worse for their pilots during SLI, do you think they would fight for the NIC??

APA doesn't want DOH so they don't care about the internal order of our seniority list.

 

[electricjet98]

Clear, I think you are mis-understanding what the APA said. Of course they don't WANT to inherit the dispute. It would be nice if was already decided before they HAD to get involved. It didn't say they WOULD'T get involved... The first sentence of what you quoted clearly said they take "no position" in the dispute...

If they realize the NIC would be worse for their pilots during SLI, do you think they would fight for the NIC??

We've all seen their opinion of DOH after their membership expressed their concern. The surest process that APA will not need to defend it's arguement against DOH...is to make sure that USAPA does not have a DOH list to present.

 

[snapthis]

Dude, it's already over. You just don't know when to quit. I expect a spanking for you at the hands of the Federal Court shortly.

Rosenblatt was a federal judge on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona. Rosenblatt was nominated by President Ronald Reagan on May 15, 1984, to a seat vacated by William P. Copple. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on June 8, 1984, and received his commission on June 11, 1984. He assumed senior status on October 30, 2003


Hey Bran-skee, I voted for Reagan in 1980 to rid our country of the Carter administration. On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work, Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order, and banned them from federal service for life.

Reagan nominated Judge Rosenblatt. Do you think he's going to be
sympathetic to a faux union's objecive to evade binding arbitration?

You have a lot to learn, son.

 

[Phoenix]

We've all seen their opinion of DOH after their membership expressed their concern. The surest process that APA will not need to defend it's arguement against DOH...is to make sure that USAPA does not have a DOH list to present.

The APA has a lot of control over USAPA's relationship to the pilots of the Phoenix base that is to be closed.. just as much control as USAPA has over the APA and their relationship to the former TWA pilots in the soon to be closed St. Louis base.

 

[Phoenix]

Rosenblatt was a federal judge on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona. Rosenblatt was nominated by President Ronald Reagan on May 15, 1984, to a seat vacated by William P. Copple. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on June 8, 1984, and received his commission on June 11, 1984. He assumed senior status on October 30, 2003


Hey Bran-skee, I voted for Reagan in 1980 to rid our country of the Carter administration. On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work, Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order, and banned them from federal service for life.

Reagan nominated Judge Rosenblatt. Do you think he's going to be
sympathetic to a faux union's objecive to evade binding arbitration?

You have a lot to learn, son.

Hey Snappy, Do you think Judge Rosenblatt will take your word that USAPA is a faux union? I mean you do have a lot of integrity and all that shiite, but none of his colleagues has said as much. You have a lot to learn, son.

 

[traderjake]

The APA has a lot of control over USAPA's relationship to the pilots of the Phoenix base that is to be closed.

Another "luvthe9" type prediction about base closures.

 

[snapthis]

Hey Snappy, Do you think Judge Rosenblatt will take your word that USAPA is a faux union? I mean you do have a lot of integrity and all that shiite, but none of his colleagues has said as much. You have a lot to learn, son.

Whatever.

It's past your bedtime.

 

[snapthis]

The Swan Song of USAPA: High Hopes by Pink Floyd

 

[end_of_alpa]

High fuel prices in 2005, you say. Would you be kind enough to show us PROOF(!)? Salute to Jim!

CB

The company reported it.



http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/701345/000095015307000433/p73523e10vk.htm
Despite high fuel costs throughout the year, the airline industry is expected to report an annual profit in 2006, excluding special items and bankruptcy-related costs, for the first time since the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. While the industry continued to focus on structural changes through cost containment and fleet rationalization, airlines were able to pass some of the fuel price cost increase on to passengers through higher fares.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/701345/000095012406001200/p72019e10vk.htm
Fares remained at or near historically low levels, although the rising cost of fuel did lead to increased fares toward the latter part of 2005. Whether demand can remain at historically high levels in the face of rising fares is unclear, but as domestic capacity continues to rationalize through fleet reductions and the redeployment of aircraft to international markets, the likelihood of further fare restructurings such as Delta Air Lines’ Simplifare program, a pricing scheme introduced in January 2005 that generally lowered fares significantly and reduced restrictions on discount fares, seems to be diminishing.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Not my words (message to Traitorjake). This is the point I was trying to make.
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1983/articleId/2769/categoryId/33/CR.aspx

"Many of you who have visited the Challenge & Response forum lately have done so in a good-faith effort to gain insight into the myriad issues that your union leadership faces on a daily basis. Specific C&R forums covering topics ranging from iPad usage to layover information can be quite useful, and as you probably know, you’ll find a wealth of advice regarding check ride and fleet-by-fleet information.

That noted, woe to the uninitiated venturing an opinion on the “general discussion” forum. Most come away feeling as if they’ve trespassed on private property with a junkyard dog roaming free, or have been the victim of a drive-by shooting, with the wounds precluding any future participation. On an almost daily basis, we receive member complaints regarding bullying and unprofessional conduct by C&R regulars.

As pilots we are known to be a bit carnivorous by nature, but in many cases on C&R we have seen a complete abandonment of what constitutes good judgment and basic decency. How many of us would use the same disrespectful language we have observed on C&R if we were in a face-to-face discussion with that person? Imagine if our passengers had access to some of the messages we see posted on daily basis on C&R. What would they think about our professionalism? Is that the type of judgment that we use in our daily lives and, more importantly, in the operation of our aircraft? For the vast majority of us, the answer is an emphatic “NO.”

It’s no secret that C&R is dominated by a very small, distinct minority. Statistically, more than 90 percent of the posts are made by fewer than 10 percent of the total members. Unfortunately, many of those frequent posters were previously active within APA and appear to have an agenda known only to them. Some are by nature argumentative, while others are just angry and want to vent. In many respects, the forum looks more like a “monkey house” than a venue for rational, intelligent discourse, with potentially disastrous consequences for both the individual and the union at large. The most egregious posts—often by repeat offenders—have been used by management in termination hearings and arbitrations that have cost the membership more than $400,000 in litigation-related expenses during the past eight years.

Most of you are familiar with the following user policy posted prior to entry into C&R:

“Challenge and Response forum is not a protected or privileged discussion area. AMR management has used C&R content for a range of disciplinary action against pilots up to and including termination. Furthermore, the APA leadership DOES NOT monitor or police forum content and any information posted should not be treated as fact or as representing the positions or directions of the union.

“Advocating illegal actions on this forum may subject the Association AND individual members to legal penalties, including significant fines and/or damages.”

The courts have used similar bulletin boards at Delta and United to enforce fines and pilot terminations. While preparing to defend against the anticipated restraining order that we narrowly averted last fall, we learned that a major part of management’s case against APA would have been based on hundreds of C&R posts.

C&R has become dominated by character assassination and rampant disinformation, with little or no accountability for an individual who engages in such actions. Outright intentional falsehoods are common, such as the recent post containing a statement attributed to Congressman Edward “Marky” that APA confirmed was a forgery designed to incite anger amongst our pilots. Impersonating a federal official is a crime and could expose APA to even more liability defending yet another unprofessional pilot.

We can be our own worst enemy when it comes to our willingness to lend credibility to this type of trash. It has now reached a point where it would take a 24/7 “quick reaction force” by an army of committee volunteers to identify and rebut each and every false statement made on C&R -- provided you could find a group of pilots willing to wade into the fray.

Your union leadership has no desire to police or restrict anyone’s freedom of speech on C&R, but it’s vital that we each assume responsibility for our words and the possible negative impact that they may have. In many respects we won the war, and now it’s time to focus on winning the peace. Yet not unlike the Japanese soldiers at the end of the war in the Pacific, some C&R “warriors” can’t let go of the battle and help us transition into a new American Airlines, even to the extent that they turn against their own union and their fellow pilots. To what end, I don’t know.

What I can tell you is that your union leadership faces a number of challenges that include a wholesale change in corporate leadership, contract implementation issues, negotiations toward a joint collective bargaining agreement, the operational merger of both airlines, and eventually the seniority integration. Our long-term professional futures are in part dependent upon our unity and our ability as leaders to create a complete cultural makeover at this airline.

To be sure, APA is a democratic organization where debate and even strong disagreement are part of our everyday lives. Yet the democratic process is most effective when intelligent, thoughtful debate and basic civility prevail. Personal attacks are almost always used as a substitute for a position that has little or no basis in fact.

It’s time to move beyond the same brand of divisive politics that we see every day on the evening news. More than anything, we need to devote our energies to achieving our common objectives of restoring the appropriate level of respect for the airline pilot profession and re-engineering American Airlines’ corporate culture. We have a chance to end the divisions, the sarcasm and the bitterness espoused by some on C&R, but it’s up to you to make that individual choice about what the new American Airlines will be like.

I especially like the part about the Japanese soldiers (AOL).