Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[snapthis]

Wow. Refreshing. Funny, but I could have wrote the same thing, which means that maybe we agree??

I think outside of this dispute, I think we may gotten along just fine. I know, because I have met many of you. Yes, will will go head to head, crawl out of the trenches, play a game of soccer, crawl back in, load the guns and fire.

It is what it is.

 

[cleardirect]

The info that I referred to was the 9th Court of Appeals ruling, not a USAPA attorney. It was not an opinion,but an actual ruling. It said you have no contract, therefore your harm is speculative at the point of ruling.
I am asking you, what is any different now from that situation? You still do not have a JCBA that is your trigger for harm. As I stated before, you cannot sue a person for damages in an auto accident or slip and fall before the event. You cannot sue a union for damages before you get damaged. You have to wait until you do or do not get what you consider damaging, and that is the Nic or no Nic. And it cannot be conjecture of possibly not getting it, you have to go into a JCBA and exit without the Nic. (Theoretically, USAPA could go right to the end with a DOH proposal, then change it to the Nic. )
Then you have to also convince someone that not getting that actually constitutes damage.
I am honestly astonished your counsel would take you into this position having been subjected to the 9 th ruling already. Their first reason for pursuing Addington was a perceived timeliness issue. What is the reason to go forward now with still no damaging event?

You have it wrong.

We are not negotiating a seniority list with the JCBA. The seniority list between the east and west was arbitrated. The JCBA is negotiations between AMR, US, APA and usapa. Seniority between us airways and AMR pilots happens after the JCBA.

Seniority is not going to be negotiated in the JCBA.

The law suit just filed in AZ federal court is only concerned about one thing. The only thing we have been concerned about. The east using the arbitrated list.

Usapa can't negotiate away the west seniority during JCBA.

The MOU has determined what our contract will be. Green book and pay rates. The harm is happening because the west has been locked out of every benefit of the first merger.

It is easy to show damage. How many upgrades has the east had how many downgrades has the west had?

 

[snapthis]

I think we have posters on here claiming that AOL wrote the language as a trap for USAPA, didn't we?

On the flip side, a trap may been set for Leonidas but I think that's been taken care of.

 

[cleardirect]

Oh I beg to differ sir. I distinctly remember reading an AOL rag in a post a couple of days ago that said exactly that. It was prettier than the way I worded it. Something to the effect of...there can be no greater investment of your profit sharing checks than to fight the holy war against USAPA and the godless East pilots. I do agree that AOL represents the West. It is the West union. Reps, dues, legal, everything you need to have your own union...except, you say that nobody speaks for the West when it is suggested that a negotiation needs to take place. Very convenient.

At least AOL asked. usapa just raised the taxes without asking. More extortion money to a rogue union.

 

[cleardirect]

I do agree with that. Wonder how many reps they can put on FPL for that. Maybe throw in a few stipends to boot. This whole thing sucks.

This is the union you wanted. An independent union that was going todo it better cheaper more efficient. How did that work out?

The promise was usapa could do it cheaper. Yet here we are with the highest dues in the industry.

Just remember what the vote to add .5% was.

East reps yes west reps no. Another 8-3 vote.

 

[cleardirect]

Okay, let us start from the beginning. http://www.planebusiness.com/buzz/awausapa.pdf

We will work our way forward when you announce that the Rico was lost in appeals. At that time I will send the judges order, allow me to paraphrase now, "That although the acts are illegal in other courts, it does not fall under the Rico statute"

Ready, begin.

Why don't you post the court of appeals or the judges dismissal. The false accusation of document one mean nothing. You love to point out what the ninth said why don't you be consistent and point out what the fourth said about the RICO. Dismissed.

 

[traderjake]

Seriously, the short term rise in dues was appropriate based on current events.

Posted by CM on another board:

Yesterday per the Update above USAPA raised our dues to an astounding 2.45%. That is 25% higher than ALPA, 150% higher than APA, and the highest dues rate of any employee group in the history of commercial aviation.

Group II TOS Lineholding Captains and F/Os, respectively, will now pay an additional $750 and $500 per year in union dues. Group II TOS Lineholding Captains and F/Os, respectively, will now pay about $3,500 and $2,500 per year in industry leading dues.

 

[cleardirect]

Nobody but an idiot would believe that. Let's stop the cat and mouse. I'm saying we did have value and the current operation proves it. The potential was there and all we needed was time and somebody in charge that actually wanted to run an airline.

Where was the value? The bases or the low wages of the east pilots?

 

[cleardirect]

Luv and his buddies need something to be afraid of so they can sow that around the pilot group to control them. It's very effective. PHX isn't going anywhere. 190 flying will eventually get around all of the system if they intend to replace regional flying with them. That includes PHX. I think that is where a lot of our mainline growth will come from. But I don't see it replacing 73s or A320.

If the company was going to put 190 flying out west why have they waited 6 years to do it? Why did the company deny the grievance to award the west the 1/3 of the 190's that we are owed?

No the 190 is not coming to PHX.

 

[traderjake]

You know as well as anyone that if the NIC hadn't been so absurd, this would have never happened and the ONLY reason you get so high and mighty about it is because of the huge advantage the bottom half of your list gets from it.

In your opinion the NIC award was "so aburd", that's a refection of you, not the award.

The award used fundamentally the same methodology as the Shuttle, Delta - Northwest, and Frontier - Republic awards.

The neutral, professionally trained arbitrators of those four awards don't agree with your opinion.

The fact that you think it's OK to renege on a mutually agreed upon arbitration is also a reflection of you and the majority of the East pilots.

 

[Black Swan]

You have it wrong.

We are not negotiating a seniority list with the JCBA. The seniority list between the east and west was arbitrated. The JCBA is negotiations between AMR, US, APA and usapa. Seniority between us airways and AMR pilots happens after the JCBA.

Seniority is not going to be negotiated in the JCBA.

The law suit just filed in AZ federal court is only concerned about one thing. The only thing we have been concerned about. The east using the arbitrated list.

Usapa can't negotiate away the west seniority during JCBA.

The MOU has determined what our contract will be. Green book and pay rates. The harm is happening because the west has been locked out of every benefit of the first merger.

It is easy to show damage. How many upgrades has the east had how many downgrades has the west had?

No, I don't have it wrong. The 9th said it clearly. You need a joint contract with the East to make it ripe. You are not getting one now.
You are going for harm. I come back at your harm and state you were compensated at a higher level than the East. How were you harmed? If anyone was harmed, it was the East.
Remove your blinders, look at it from all sides. It isn't just about you. I am going to cite you the 9th ruling. A rule of law. You merely cite opinions, and ones not backed by fact, or law. Just your skewed opinion. Cite me law stating the Nicolau is binding, cite me law that says the Nicolau has to be used. You can't. You have another unripe case, and you are going back to the 9th if need be.


Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision. 9th court of appeals


You are going back to the courts with an unripe case. USAPA could change the DOH to Nicolau the day after court, and submit it to the company, and blow your argument out of the water. Not that it will. You have to exit a contract event with ratification without the Nicolau to claim you were harmed. You are going down the exact road of Addington 1.
Your legal team is taking you into another trap. Your members are spending their monies on another unripe event. So be it.

 

[cleardirect]

Would you say that this line of thought is more representative of the majority of West pilots or that of Res and Nic, (eg. calling us scabs)?

Secondly, regarding the latest in the round of lawsuits, seems Marty, if he read the MOU, knew that it superseded the TA in the following:



So IF Marty KNEW this before hand and encouraged all of you to vote overwhelmingly for the MOU where will his law firm stand if you lose?

Secondly, Leonidas is, in plain sight, a corporation and is THE entity, not the class, that is the party responsible for legal actions. NO? What is telling is the money trail and that is the key.

Well good luck with that logic.

Now how will usapa claim to not be against west pilots when they are suing west pilot class or named west pilots?

Besides I thought you guys were ready for the fight. You all have said let's go to court. Yet this latest flawed filing from usapa seeks to once again avoid the answer we all want.

 

[cleardirect]

A point of logic few recognize.

Parker didn't modify the east unit cost structure or market. It was a turnkey operation for an executive ready to take the helm. Low risk, high probability as has since been demonstrated.

If Parker had left Americe West, recruited by Usair transition management, the end result would be the same -- a highly profitable standalone east unit, and thus career expections not based on organic (errant) assumptions, but more appropriately a high profit - high potential going concern lacking one and only one additional employee, which is a capable CEO.

It us airways was so profitable why were you in BK twice in a short amount of time?

So you think that a single executive was all the east was lacking to survive?

If so why all the hate towards Parker? You guys should be kissing his ass not calling him names. If Parker could have saved you why was AWA going to go away since we had wonder boy?

 

[Black Swan]

CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

 

[Black Swan]

It us airways was so profitable why were you in BK twice in a short amount of time?

So you think that a single executive was all the east was lacking to survive?

If so why all the hate towards Parker? You guys should be kissing his ass not calling him names. If Parker could have saved you why was AWA going to go away since we had wonder boy?

Who cares now. The past is the past, and you are going to lose your case and spend your pilots money for another unripe case. That, is fact.
Cite one reason the latest filing is novel and meets the 9ths criteria.