Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

under the MOU, which is now the "new" legally binding "contract" USAPA's existence does not end until the completion of the JCBA AND the completion of the SLI.

There is NO provision in the MOU for that to happen, the West wants nothing to do with it.

Those are the facts.

In a similar thread, I read Harpers/Jacobs motion. It was a joke motion. Venting, if you will.

The only GOOD thing it did was place into the mix a revelation of a new MOU/MTA/JCBA/SLI between APA and USAPA. That's it. AOL has no involvement and I would like to believe, althought I don't know for sure, whether Jess Pauley and Pat Symanski will file a brief arguing the case is now moot. From what I can see Jess and Pat are taking a course in a different direction.

BAD MOVE!

Let me understand you. You think you have your "facts" right? You honestly think that the MOU is superior to federal law?

When the NMB rules APA is the bargaining agent for all new American pilots usapa goes away. Not in a little bit, not after the SLI or joint contract but instantly.

Question. Once we become APA whose C&BL apply? usapa or APA?

How does usapa argue that they are required to use DOH when there is no more usapa? When the APA the only legal bargaining agent argues to the arbitration panel that the only C&BL in effect does not require DOH and that the APA position is not DOH but relative or ratio. How are you going to get DOH.

How do east APA members argue that it is fair and equitable to place 85% of the east pilots in the top 50% of the list and only 15% of east pilots in the bottom 50% of the list while only 24% of the American pilot are in the top 50% and 76% are in the bottom 50%?

Does that sound like a seniority integration or almost a staple? What possible C&R can make that equal?

 

[Piedmont1984]

under the MOU, which is now the "new" legally binding "contract" USAPA's existence does not end until the completion of the JCBA AND the completion of the SLI.

There is NO provision in the MOU for that to happen, the West wants nothing to do with it.

Those are the facts.

In a similar thread, I read Harpers/Jacobs motion. It was a joke motion. Venting, if you will.

The only GOOD thing it did was place into the mix a revelation of a new MOU/MTA/JCBA/SLI between APA and USAPA. That's it. AOL has no involvement and I would like to believe, althought I don't know for sure, whether Jess Pauley and Pat Symanski will file a brief arguing the case is now moot. From what I can see Jess and Pat are taking a course in a different direction.

BAD MOVE!

I understand the part about USAPA remaining in place until the SLI is in place, Not sure about the JCBA. USAPA would have to voluntarily submit to such a process and the west would be under pressure from APA to participate. APA has already indicated their preference for a non-DOH integration. I hope we don't ignore them like we did Nicolau.

 

[Ames]

Res Judicata: ".... share the same cross hairs in the same scope.......the trigger is getting pulled."..." That pulling sensation on USCABAS neck isn't just NEVER going away, it's going to increase until it snaps like a dried twig."..."Roasted Lame Duck."



Whew!....All THAT!?...And just over your little nic? Wow!...I'd sure hate to see what happens whenever you're denied a lollipop! Tantrums of this level alone might well register on the Richter scale as seismic events.

Umm....If we just give you your nic immediately, plus even a dozen or so lollipops of your choosing; is there ANY hope for redemption and thus, the sparing of perhaps at least the second generation "beyond your grave"?...Or are all now predestined to be damned for all eternity?

"He may not be smart, but he sure is stupid!". Yep. This runs through my head every time I read one of your posts.

 

[cleardirect]

In the words of usapa's lawyer Roland Wilder. Perhaps some of you that think the Nicolau is a windfall or that Nicolau got it wrong you might want to take a minute and ask your own lawyer about fair and equitable arbitrations. while you are at it ask him about the "gold standard" it would seem that he is of the opinion that each case turns on it's own facts and there is no standard method.

Wilder says that the ultimate fair and equitable list is one decided by an arbitrator. Just like we had with Nicolau. How does Wilder argue in that case an arbitrators ruling is fair and equitable but in our case it is not? One case he was under oath in this case he is just collecting a pay check.

Here we have usapa's lawyer Roland Wilder, judge Silver and even federal law M/B that says as long as the process is followed the result is fair and equitable.

So what is usapa going to argue to another arbitration panel? That east pilots only think it is fair if they agree with the decision? Arguing that the arbitrated list is not fair is certainly not an LUP, according to many sources.





USAPA's very own “Professional Negotiator” (and former TWA Merger Counsel), Roland Wilder, once testified under oath while being deposed on November 6th, 2006 when his firm sued the former TWA MEC Chairman to obtain payment for his legal services. In response to question about the TWA/AA integration therein asking, “[a]nd, in your opinion, did this integration fall outside the range of fairness and equity[?],” Mr. Wilder stated:

“Let me give you just a little background of those two terms and I'll see if this helps if I may. The term fair and equitable has never been defined anywhere. What happens is that each of the pilot groups, first of all, try to explore a satisfactory solution to seniority integration first without counsel, then with the aid of counsel, and typically, under the so-called Allegheny-Mohawk format if they cannot reach agreement, the matter goes to an impartial arbitrator for a determination, and the arbitrator's determination is fair and equitable, but fairness and equity turn on the circumstances of each case, so what might be fair and equitable in one situation is not fair and equitable in another situation. All I can say in answer to your question is, that I was searching for a seniority integration that was considerably more equitable to the TWA pilots than the one that was finally implemented by the Allied Pilots Association and American Airlines. And -- But the ultimate determination of what's fair and equitable would have been the arbitral decision which never occurred.” Page 63

We think that was very well stated, Mr. Wilder. It is exactly why ALPA was eventually found guilty of violating the TWA Pilots' Duty-of-Fair-Representation (DFR) by coercing the TWA pilots to surrender their rights to an arbitrated process. Certainly USAPA, and the APA when it becomes the bargaining agent, would likewise be guilty of violating the DFR should they choose to abandon an arbitration which already occurred; they are opposite sides of the same coin. As Mr. Wilder stated, “And – But the ultimate determination of what's fair and equitable would have been the arbitral decision which never occurred.” In our case it did occur and, as defined by both Mr. Nicolau and Mr. Wilder, resulted in the “...ultimate determination of what's fair and equitable...” Even Judge Silver comports with the arbitral sentiments of Mr. Wilder when she stated in her October 11, 2012 Order, “An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result.” Many clearly see the warning signs plastered mile after mile along the integration highway, and all parties need to understand that ANY attempt to abandon or modify the Nicolau Opinion and Award places all parties on dangerous ground. It will not be tolerated.

 

[Pi brat]

I say you're going to see a court ordered bump and flush for every non nic position awarded after the POR.

I'll bet $10 you're wrong(LOA 93 and two kids in college bet).

Here is one of you better predictions:

2011

[background=#fff]

You'll be working under a Nic. inclusive joint contract by next Christmas.

MARK MY WORDS!!

Res Judicata...a thing already decided.[/background]





Oops, wrong guy. You all write the same. Stand by

 

[Ames]

APA has already indicated their preference for a non-DOH integration. I hope we don't ignore them like we did Nicolau.

How can you ignore APA? They're the new majority.

 

[algflyr]

When the NMB rules APA is the bargaining agent for all new American pilots usapa goes away. Not in a little bit, not after the SLI or joint contract but instantly.

That is not true...

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Good morning Greeter.

USAPA's big win were two 9th Circuit judges who took a pass.

The West class wins were a unanimous jury verdict, the 4th Circuit vindicating the Cactus 18 and yesterday's denial none the less.

I'll add helping us vote in the MOU.

We'll call it a draw.

Oh no, I disagree. You are now "winning." The apparent (stated on this forum) goal is for LEO to delay the SLI and JCBA process in the courts. USAPA not getting expedited service in the 9th supports that goal.I am thinking about making a donation to LEO. The longer you can drag this out, the longer I can enjoy my undiluted attrition and yearly pay raises. I am personally hoping for another 6 years. Since I have no aim to ever fly an APA widebody, this will work out just fine. And you can continue to rule the roost in PHX. Come to think of it, Marty's latest strategy might be a "win" for both East and West!Greeter

 

[Pi brat]

2011 RES JUD said:




"The Dec. ruling should be out by April. LOA93 Loss will have been handed down to USAPA and that reality will have had a few months to percolate among the silent majority. I, and others a hell of a lot smarter than I, believe that Judge Silver is going to effectively end this debate by telling the company that they are absolutely liable if they touch the Nic. The law is clear. It is illegal for the company to enjoy the benefits of a new contract that work as a DFR against a group of employees. All AOL has to do is persuade the Judge enough that a DOH contract is indeed a dfr and will make the contract Illegal. Guess where all the evidence for proving that fact will be imported from? Wait for it.......

ADDINGTON!!!

The case that was dead, buried, meaningless, and forgotten will be back front and center to haunt USAPA. Being a Jury already found against USAPA for DFR in regards to a DOH list....how hard is it going to be to convince Silver that a DOH contract is a DFR?

It's a no brainer. USAPA is doomed and they damn well know it. Thank God they finally are getting competent legal advise.

This will be over by April.
Res Judicata...a thing already decided."

 

[Pi brat]

Was it that the FA's actually wanted a contract? T

Yes, but the majority really didn't want this one. Then company put the merger gun to their head.

 

[traderjake]

APA has already indicated their preference for a non-DOH integration. I hope we don't ignore them like we did Nicolau.

Say USAPA is allowed to submit an East and West list, whats you're guess for how the three lists are combined?

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Say USAPA is allowed to submit an East and West list, whats you're guess for how the three lists are combined?

[font=Arial']Probably some hybrid of DOH and LOS, with some kind of accounting for furlough time. Maybe only partial credit. Probably mucho wide body fences and restrictions, not many (maybe none) on narrow bodies. Some short term base protections, but not many. Why would anyone want to be trapped in a shrinking base? And that is not a dig at PHX. There is no base or hub, East, West, or Texas that is totally safe. [/font]

[font=Arial']But we have lots of time. The West Class is going to drag this out for years and years and even more years. Might as well enjoy our little bit of growth and attrition (especially when it really ramps up in a few years. Right about the time the parity raises kick in.)[/font]

[font=Arial']Greeter[/font]

 

[snapthis]

Oh no, I disagree. You are now "winning." The apparent (stated on this forum) goal is for LEO to delay the SLI and JCBA process in the courts. USAPA not getting expedited service in the 9th supports that goal.I am thinking about making a donation to LEO. The longer you can drag this out, the longer I can enjoy my undiluted attrition and yearly pay raises. I am personally hoping for another 6 years. Since I have no aim to ever fly an APA widebody, this will work out just fine. And you can continue to rule the roost in PHX. Come to think of it, Marty's latest strategy might be a "win" for both East and West!Greeter

Greeter,

I "roost" in Phoenix for now but will go wherever Nic sends me. If Nic sends me East, I'll gladly roost there. I've already nested DC and JFK.

If Phoenix closes, we all revert to our previous positions prior to the merger in 2005 and you may find yourself back at Wal-Mart but not as a greeter.

Walmart Greeters Will No Longer Greet At The Door

By Claire Gordon
Posted Jan 27th 2012 @ 7:55PM
Filed under: Unemployment Trends and Stats, Employment News & Trends

After 30 years, "People Greeters" will no longer welcome Walmart customers with a "cart and a smile." Four months after Walmart got rid of its night-shift "People Greeters," the big-box retailer is moving its day-shift greeters inside the store. Walmart claims it's all in the name of better customer service, but the announcement has left some greeters uncertain about the future of their jobs.

'Welcome to Walmart. How are you doing?'
Jerome Allen has greeted morning shoppers at Walmart for five years, the last two at a supercenter in Fort Worth, Texas. He heard through the grapevine that the store was reassigning its night-shift greeters, but was surprised when the store manager called him into his office on Thursday, and told him that there would be no more door greeters at all.

Allen's new position, which begins Feb. 6, will be to stand in "high traffic" areas of the store, ask customers if they need any assistance, and direct the flow of traffic. Allen doesn't think his new position will be particularly useful. The store, he said, already has a full roster of employees manning the floor, who are required to ask nearby customers if they need any help, as dictated by the "10-foot Rule."

David Tovar, a Walmart spokesman, claims store greeters have no cause for concern. "They're not going anywhere," he told AOL Jobs in an interview.

But Allen isn't convinced. "I don't think they're going to let me stand around doing nothing," he said. "I don't know what my career is going to be here at Walmart. They're moving me to a position that isn't going to be here very long."

Allen fears that many greeters, once they're in their new positions, will be found redundant, and let go. Allen's hours are already reduced for next week, to 16 hours from 20. He would love to work more; with an hourly wage of $10.45, Allen is struggling to support his two children.

Aggressive Hospitality
After Walmart got rid of night-shift greeters in September, Tovar told Bloomberg that the decision was a way to to rein in costs and prices. Walmart's sales have thinned in recent years, as many customers flocked to dollar stores instead, which offered even lower prices. Same-store sales at Walmart dropped for nine straight quarters, but picked up by 1.3 percent in the quarter that ended in October. In contrast, between 2007 and 2010, Family Dollar and Dollar General grew by 15 percent and 37 percent, respectively, according to a December report from Colliers International.

Most of the night-shift greeters were assigned to other roles, "and a very small percentage ended up leaving the company," said Tovar. But that's not what's happening here, he emphasized. Walmart had given greeters extra responsibilities over the years, he explained, like helping customers return products, and cleaning and prepping carts. The change frees greeters from these other duties, so that they can "really focus on customer service," he said, and interact more with customers while they're in the store.

Analysts doubt the move will have any real impact on sales, but say it does raise questions about the future of Walmart's smiley-faced image. "The Walmart greeter put a friendly face on the big box, self-service store," said Wendy Liebmann, CEO and chief shopper of consulting firm WSL Strategic Retail. "More than ever, shoppers are looking for an engaging experience at retail. Especially in this new digital world. It's not only about the lowest price. Hopefully Walmart understands this, and will find a new way to deliver it."

The "People Greeter" was an idea dreamed up by Sam Walton himself, first introduced in 1980, and quickly imitated by retailers everywhere. The "People Greeter" has become such a cultural staple that he even had his own cameo on "Family Guy." Walton believed "aggressive hospitality" would set Walmart apart from other retailers, and Tovar insists that this new development is simply a continuation of that legacy. Even so, "Welcome to Walmart" isn't quite the same, when said in a "high traffic" area.

-- Barbara Thau contributed reporting to this article.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

<p>

Greeter,

I "roost" in Phoenix for now but will go wherever Nic sends me. If Nic sends me East, I'll gladly roost there. I've already nested DC and JFK.

If Phoenix closes, we all revert to our previous positions prior to the merger in 2005 and you may find yourself back at Wal-Mart but not as a greeter.

Prior to the merger in 2005? If I had to pick I would like to return to my pay and position in August 2001.    And maybe we could just skip the next month..as that is the REAL reason my airline was BK twice.Greeter</p>

 

[traderjake]

Probably some hybrid of DOH and LOS, with some kind of accounting for furlough time.

APA has already indicated their preference for a non-DOH integration.