Feb / Mar 2013 IAM Fleet Service Discussions

[Tim Nelson]

ograc,

How can the US members expect the same? Aren't there two (2) different NC's. Did the US NC negotiate the UA T/A and vise versa? You are throwing our NC under the bus before we even have anything to look at. Now correct me if I am wrong here. Didn't canoli and his merry band of misfits negotiate out current agreement? It was not our current NC, nor current leadership right? So how do you presume to already know the outcome of our negotiations? I get that you are not happy with the current leadership, but come on, seriously? I bet you are going to try and run for office again aren't you?

Exactly which one of the negotiation team members would step out of line? I mean, the IAM sent the United members the same letter you got last week so when the IAM signs on to transition talks and LOA, unlike all other unions at United, and tosses out your current negotiations, do you really think MF or MB are going to say "Stop right there Rich?" They do what Rich tells them. Bottom line. regards,

 

[pjirish317]

When our NC refuses to enter "transition" talks, and holds steadfast on completing our current section 6 negotiations, and the company refuses, can we then petition for self help?
And tim, I get you are unhappy with the current leadership, a leadership you were insturmental in getting into office I might add, that, and the fact that canoli was despised by US fleet. Why do you continue to burn bridges with some of your "friends" that are on the current leadership team? You may never be able to repair the damage that you have done with those relationships. There are better ways of getting your point across, rather than destroying friendships. And IMO, I believe that we will finish section 6 before going into transition talks.

 

[ograc]

I was for a time unsure of my yes vote , but after talking to a person who was displayed by my yes vote I am content that I made the right decision . That west worker told me that they would have voted yes again even with them being displaced .

I don't want any of you who didn't picket or take any physical action to achieve our contract to to say a single WORD to me about what we did . If you didn't come out from behind your keyboard then you don't have the right to say $%@& to me about anything , I only respect the fighters .

Going forwards I no longer support economic gains in liue of workers .

We will get our just due this next go round and it will not be at the expense of hard working honest Americans .

freedom,
Although you may justify the reasoning of your vote, based on the input of one displaced worker, I believe I can speak for countless others who believe a vote, such as yours, has adversly impacted their livelihoods. Some far greater than others. I believe you have learned from past mistakes. The question is have others? Apparently, based on the UA TA, our own leadership team remains callous to the outsourcing issue. The leadership of this union and the members had better change course with this thought process for we are headed on a path of self destruction. IMO... labor organizations and their members, who continue down the path of accepting the elimination of existing members' jobs, are destined to collapse from within.

 

[mike33]

.

I don't want any of you who didn't picket or take any physical action to achieve our contract to to say a single WORD to me about what we did . If you didn't come out from behind your keyboard then you don't have the right to say $%@& to me about anything , I only respect the fighters .

You could have saved your picketing with a no vote. That would have been a big Picketing answer. Dont get me wrong, picketing is great but you must present the picketing in the right forum. Where you picketing the TA?...Highly unlikely. The right forum would have been to vote no. If you say we would have not gotten anything anyway so you had to vote yes because of the circumstances, then you picketed for nothing! You should have voted NO!!

 

[ograc]

ograc,

How can the US members expect the same? Aren't there two (2) different NC's. Did the US NC negotiate the UA T/A and vise versa? You are throwing our NC under the bus before we even have anything to look at. Now correct me if I am wrong here. Didn't canoli and his merry band of misfits negotiate out current agreement? It was not our current NC, nor current leadership right? So how do you presume to already know the outcome of our negotiations? I get that you are not happy with the current leadership, but come on, seriously? I bet you are going to try and run for office again aren't you?

Two different NCs... same District Leadership. If the UA ageement is acceptable with DL 141 it will be acceptable with DL 141 Leadership concerning US. We can expect US to be expecting the same... especially regarding outsourcing. I'm not throwing the current NC under the bus at all. I believe their hearts are in the right place. But don't be naive... they answer to the District Leadership. The District Leadership will be promoting the TA at UA correct? Do you think it's a good TA? I'm not defending past leadership teams either... our current agreement is a disgrace. Take the names and the candidates out of the equation... I'm not happy or satisfied with the direction this union, and labor in general, is going. Especially in the airline industry. Labor has declined into accepting concessionary contracts while the employer makes huge profits. Wouldn't you agree this trend needs to change for all of our sakes? As far as running for office again... I'll probably be furloughed/ retired before I would have the privelage. This is not about me.

 

[mike33]

Two different NCs... same District Leadership. If the UA ageement is acceptable with DL 141 it will be acceptable with DL 141 Leadership concerning US. We can expect US to be expecting the same... especially regarding outsourcing. I'm not throwing the current NC under the bus at all. I believe their hearts are in the right place. But don't be naive... they answer to the District Leadership.

Well i'm gonna say just this!.......Yes i think the NC's are of different mindset. I honestly dont know why i believe that?...I do think that UA has a chance to turn things around with this vote or let their displeasured voices be heard to the IAM NC and the district by their vote. I don't know what UA's priorities were when or if they were asked what they wanted in their s-6 talks. But i do know this, SCOPE was at the top of our list i believe. So we shall see!....When they give me something to look at then i either go to the top of the mountain an proclaim BS or i cast my vote and head to the bar and wait for the results and do some planning.

And yes i know alot of things can happen where i dont get to vote.....but....thats just guessing isnt it?

 

[ograc]

When our NC refuses to enter "transition" talks, and holds steadfast on completing our current section 6 negotiations, and the company refuses, can we then petition for self help?
And tim, I get you are unhappy with the current leadership, a leadership you were insturmental in getting into office I might add, that, and the fact that canoli was despised by US fleet. Why do you continue to burn bridges with some of your "friends" that are on the current leadership team? You may never be able to repair the damage that you have done with those relationships. There are better ways of getting your point across, rather than destroying friendships. And IMO, I believe that we will finish section 6 before going into transition talks.

I'd like to hold you to finishing section 6 before transition talks. IMO... even if we were to finish section 6 negotiations... it will be no better than what is agreed to at UA. Bottom line... IMO... I don't think US is going to complete anything with the IAM until the outcome of a representation election. Why do you think they have already reached MOUs with the TWU at AA? They're betting the IAM won't even be the bargaining representative for the combined fleet 2 years from now. They will continue to dance... or force the IAM DL 141 into accepting another sub standard contract. This will not be the NC's fault. They are just pawns in the chess game between the company and the district. Time will tell.

 

[pjirish317]

ograc,

IMO you are not giving our NC enough credit. And indirectly I think you are throwing our NC under the bus. None of us on here are privy to anything that goes on during our negotiation sessions, we have no idea if any outsourcing language is or is not in there, right? So for you to "expect" the same from our NC, is irresponsible of you. Have you spoken to any of them personally? Have you tried? And IMO the district leadership has to answer to the NC, not the other way around. We will just have to disagree here. My opinion of the UA T/A has no relevance in my mind here, it has nothing to do with us at US, the UA people are not negotiating our CBA. It is the UA NC that agreed to their agreement, they should have to answer to the members at UA as to why they agreed to what they agreed to, dont you agree? With our NC, I have a little more faith than you do.

P.S.
I hope you do not get furloughed.

 

[Tim Nelson]

When our NC refuses to enter "transition" talks, and holds steadfast on completing our current section 6 negotiations, and the company refuses, can we then petition for self help?
And tim, I get you are unhappy with the current leadership, a leadership you were insturmental in getting into office I might add, that, and the fact that canoli was despised by US fleet. Why do you continue to burn bridges with some of your "friends" that are on the current leadership team? You may never be able to repair the damage that you have done with those relationships. There are better ways of getting your point across, rather than destroying friendships. And IMO, I believe that we will finish section 6 before going into transition talks.

PJ, it's not so much about petitioning for self help as it is to keep leverage by keeping things separate. Management wants unions to enter transition talks to make things more 'seamless'. Thus, entering transition talks is worth something and necessarily involves two bites of the apple. We must gain consideration for our members before the IAM enters into transition talks yet again. We all got the letter saying "Contract First" but so did United. As far as my relationships, I don't have any problem with any of those guys personally but I have seen firsthand that I have no use for them professionally with the exception of MM. NH had it in him but that was a long time ago. The others simply are nice guys who don't understand labor or leverage. regards,

 

[Tim Nelson]

ograc,

IMO you are not giving our NC enough credit. And indirectly I think you are throwing our NC under the bus. None of us on here are privy to anything that goes on during our negotiation sessions, we have no idea if any outsourcing language is or is not in there, right? So for you to "expect" the same from our NC, is irresponsible of you. Have you spoken to any of them personally? Have you tried? And IMO the district leadership has to answer to the NC, not the other way around. We will just have to disagree here. My opinion of the UA T/A has no relevance in my mind here, it has nothing to do with us at US, the UA people are not negotiating our CBA. It is the UA NC that agreed to their agreement, they should have to answer to the members at UA as to why they agreed to what they agreed to, dont you agree? With our NC, I have a little more faith than you do.

P.S.
I hope you do not get furloughed.

The UA contract is highly significant since it will lower the bar for the craft in other negotiations. One thing I think both me and you might agree on is that the TWU is not the answer. I'd prefer the IAM over the TWU any day of the week although the IAM is in sore need of a tuneup. regards,

 

[pjirish317]

Tim,

That may be the ONLY thing we agree on is that the TWU is definately not the answer!

 

[ograc]

Well i'm gonna say just this!.......Yes i think the NC's are of different mindset. I honestly dont know why i believe that?...I do think that UA has a chance to turn things around with this vote or let their displeasured voices be heard to the IAM NC and the district by their vote. I don't know what UA's priorities were when or if they were asked what they wanted in their s-6 talks. But i do know this, SCOPE was at the top of our list i believe. So we shall see!....When they give me something to look at then i either go to the top of the mountain an proclaim BS or i cast my vote and head to the bar and wait for the results and do some planning.

And yes i know alot of things can happen where i dont get to vote.....but....thats just guessing isnt it?

I wish I could share your optimism regarding our NC team. In all honesty... I hope you're right. However, I'm deeply disapointed the District leadership team overseeing UA negotiations could agree to and support such outsourcing. If scope was at the top of our list then it is apparent our negotiating team is up against two fronts. A company that wants it and a union leadership team who is willing to conceed it. I don't envy the situation they may find themselves in. As I posted to PJ... I am not throwing the NC under the bus. They may have been put in a no win situation.

 

[pjirish317]

Tim,

Just for the record, you are dead wrong about NH, MF, and FO. They are all good AGC's, and for you to imply otherwise, shows how bitter you really are. I speak to them regularly, and have the utmost respect for them, what they do, and what they deal with on a daily basis. You are spot on with MM, and the others you should have grouped with him. But your hatred has clouded your assesmsnt of them. But we will just have to disagree.

 

[ograc]

ograc,

IMO you are not giving our NC enough credit. And indirectly I think you are throwing our NC under the bus. None of us on here are privy to anything that goes on during our negotiation sessions, we have no idea if any outsourcing language is or is not in there, right? So for you to "expect" the same from our NC, is irresponsible of you. Have you spoken to any of them personally? Have you tried? And IMO the district leadership has to answer to the NC, not the other way around. We will just have to disagree here. My opinion of the UA T/A has no relevance in my mind here, it has nothing to do with us at US, the UA people are not negotiating our CBA. It is the UA NC that agreed to their agreement, they should have to answer to the members at UA as to why they agreed to what they agreed to, dont you agree? With our NC, I have a little more faith than you do.

P.S.
I hope you do not get furloughed.

PJ,
Throughout the process of negotiations the NC has a direct involvement in the exchange of proposals and up to this point I believe the NC has dutifully brought forth proposals based on membership input. But in the end, just has you have pointed out in the past with closed door meetings between "Canoli" and the company, the International and the District has the final authoritive signing off of a TA. The International or District leadership does not answer to the NC. Historically, we have seen this to be the case. I would not expect anything more, based on what their up against, from our NC. I expect the same fot US from the District Leadership and ultimately the International, regarding our negotiations, based on what they have accepted at UA.
P.S.
Thank you for your wishes concerning my future Brother.

 

[robbedagain]

But they will be... and you know it. The way I see it... a lot has to change before we can expect improvement. Both with the membership and the leadership of this union. With the US/AA merger and subsequent representation elections we could be at a crossroads. If we get there... accountability is at hand. Let's watch the developments at UA with the TA agreed to by the IAM. If the membership votes it down the message sent is the Leadership and NC is out of touch with the members. If it's ratified... the members at US can expect the same. At that time... if rejected or accepted we must consider our options going forward. The IAM and TWU have already shown they are comfortable, as a labor organization, with agreeing to language that outsources members' jobs. The root of the problem!

you are absolutely correct about that pal. grievance should also be handled a lot faster than the way its going now... for ex my grievance is now over 3 and a half yrs and was to have a mediation last month but suddenly the company cancelled it... at least thats what frank o donnell told me., secondly i do know a lot of ua folks and they do not want the t/a and they have said they would turn it down now a large loud rejection of the t/a should send a very strong signal to both the union and the company and if they pass it i think its almost a guarantee they would put that type of thing to us i would be one to shoot it down period. a lot does need to change but some how i dont see it happening