Doug Parker decries profit sharing....

[Buck]

 Yes AA use to be a pretty big MRO when you added in TAESL. Not much smaller than TechOps IIRC (~500-600M a year in revenue TechOps is 100-200M higher than that now at best) 
 
Why isn't Parker doing it? Few reasons
1) stupidity. Simply put Parker is the type that AA is an airline, not an MRO, not a flight kitchen, not a cargo airline, not a ground handling service etc. Its a dumb way to run a business where, for example, with MRO business you can capitalize on economics of scale. Its a very traditional way of thinking in this industry, problem is tradition is losing money and a business cycle all over the place. 
 
2) 1960s way of thinking for union members. Again, Delta is able to do what it does because it offsets the costs of higher pay with better productivity. We are a very flexible work force and generally union shops don't allow that kind of flexibility. Also the IAM seems to have zero interest in doing more work than they have. As I have said before, for whatever dumb reason the IAM is going into negotiations wanting to improve the US scope and only mentioned airframe, line and component. Not a word about engines. (and why they are starting with the worth scope in the industry vs the best scope (AA, TWU scope) shows how little interest they have in doing work in-house  
 
3) AA like DL is doing, is going to have to make a big investment in it s engine shop to run next gen engines like the GEnX and GE90. Also as Delta learned you have to invest in a marketing, sales and support staff for a MRO. This would take a big capital investment upfront and, with AAs high capex as it, it going to be harder to justify to wall street (who also thinks doing maintenance is stupid)
 
4) If AA starts to become a big MRO, adding its own work and other work then they add employees. Well the Line guys don't want that because they want Tulsa to be shut down(or at least a few around here, you know who you are) and the company doesn't want that because it increases the labor risk. At American it is very clear Parker is going to keep the us vs them attitude and if that is what you are going to do with the company than labor is a much bigger risk than at a company like Delta. Delta knows we aren't going union so they choose to work WITH the mechanics vs against them.  
 
Some wont like what I said but that is what I see. Fact is there are huge markets in the US alone that DL hasn't touched and probably wont touch. For example DL/UA/AA alone have 100+ GE90 engines in the combined fleets but those big expensive engines must go to Asia or Europe for overhaul. GEnX is another example. AA and UA have a ton on order but will be shipping them over seas for overhaul. In the narrow body market there are enough V2500s and CFM56s in the US alone for AA and DL to share the market (and currently DL sends the V2500s out, but rumors have it that it might be coming in-house once the new shop opens). On the next gen engines like the PW GTF and LEAP-X, again the market will be large enough for two MROs. Same things for components(smaller stuff like LRUs and big ticket like APUs and landing gear)
 
and before anyone brings up TAESL, RR wanted out. They are overhauling the Trent TotalCare network and it made zero sense to add next gen engines to TAESL when AA has so few on order and very little potential to order more vs DL. AA is clearly moving to a CFM/GE airline while DL looks to be going to CFM/RR airline. The day AA went GE on the 787 is the day TAESL closed. It might have taken longer to shut the doors officially but that is really the final nail. (it also didn't help that AA shut down AFW, having an engine shop at a maintenance base half way shut down wasn't really logical)
 
 
sure it matters. you want Delta pay but your company is telling you that they want 50-60% outsourcing when DL is doing 35% (and its in the low 20s if you count all the MRO work) 
Why in the hell is that logical to anyone? 
 
 
You are welcome but it looks like the ass is trying to ship as much work out as they can, pretty sad when your own union is working against you. 
 
and then they blame Delta? laughable. 

Well I have been against wondering why the TWU selected Delta as a wage adjustment component. The only reason I ever consider "wanting" Delta's pay is because Parker said DL +7% ( then lowered that to 3%) 
 
I am told here at TUL that the company is contractually allowed 35% outsourcing but it is around 17%.
to me have a sub class of mechanics is a form of outsourcing. Why is it there is no Fleet Service OSM or is there? 
 
Some on here believe that I am anti - Fleet Service when actually I am actually anti - socialistic unionism.
The concept that because one skill is able to have a wage that the other skill should automatically be granted the same.
For many years the Fleet Service was held in high regard here at American under the TWU while the mechanics were
compensated at the bottom amongst their peers. I understand that today that this is no longer the case.
 
I do wonder why American Airlines " Farmed Out" the entire Fleet Service and why the brought them back?
 
As for "Units" being farmed out to Asia and Europe, that could be fixed if the US Government changed the Tax system.
The unions in this country could have a hypothetical 100% unionized work force if they would just fight that fight on taxation.

 

[WeAAsles]

Well I have been against wondering why the TWU selected Delta as a wage adjustment component. The only reason I ever consider "wanting" Delta's pay is because Parker said DL +7% ( then lowered that to 3%) 
 
I am told here at TUL that the company is contractually allowed 35% outsourcing but it is around 17%.
to me have a sub class of mechanics is a form of outsourcing. Why is it there is no Fleet Service OSM or is there? 
 
Some on here believe that I am anti - Fleet Service when actually I am actually anti - socialistic unionism.
The concept that because one skill is able to have a wage that the other skill should automatically be granted the same.
For many years the Fleet Service was held in high regard here at American under the TWU while the mechanics were
compensated at the bottom amongst their peers. I understand that today that this is no longer the case.
 
I do wonder why American Airlines " Farmed Out" the entire Fleet Service and why the brought them back?
 
As for "Units" being farmed out to Asia and Europe, that could be fixed if the US Government changed the Tax system.
The unions in this country could have a hypothetical 100% unionized work force if they would just fight that fight on taxation.

When did they farm out the entire Fleet Service? That's a new one to me since I just finished working a flight.

And just to clarify, I'm absolutely not against you or your group either. Of course you deserve to be compensated at a much higher rate than me. I didn't go to school to learn your skills and when Dawg or others talk about things involving your trade it's like I'm reading Chinese.

Just sometimes you use the word "mechanics" when it's an issue that affects all of us like this IAMPF issue. If you read the things I write that's not something I do unless absolutely specifically it affects Fleet only.

I'm not after any of your jobs personally and if you remember I even signed that petition that if it ever happened would make it impossible for my group to gain any of your work. I signed it because I felt it was the right thing to do. Does that sound like the actions of an enemy?

 

[topDawg]

Well I have been against wondering why the TWU selected Delta as a wage adjustment component. The only reason I ever consider "wanting" Delta's pay is because Parker said DL +7% ( then lowered that to 3%)

who else do you want them to pick?
FX/5X isn't happening. Company will chew that one up and spit it out every time. (not that I agree but its just a fact)
 

I am told here at TUL that the company is contractually allowed 35% outsourcing but it is around 17%.
to me have a sub class of mechanics is a form of outsourcing.

Pre-TAESL shut down AA was at 30% outsourcing in 2014. I am not sure if 2015 will be the year it shows combined AA/US or if we will have to wait for 2016 numbers. (and remember US outsource ~55% of its total maintenance) 
 
We have talked about this before I feel like buck, you guys are outsourcing more and more. Your company and your union are calling this a "maintenance holiday" for all the new aircraft, but in reality they are pulling the wool over your eyes. 
 
You guys went from doing the majority of your components, all your engines and all your airframe work in-house to now only having 3* engines in-house (CFM56-7, CF6 and JT8 in house, CFM56-5, V2500, RB211, Trent 700, Trent 800, PW4000, CF34-10, GE90, GEnX and soon Trent XWB out of house) more and more components out of house (example, any airbus components in-house?) and a lot of airframe work out of house.
 
* the JT8 will be gone in a year, CF6 volume is wayyyy down. Wouldn't be shocked to see Doug try to send that engine out too
 

Why is it there is no Fleet Service OSM or is there?

I disagree with you on this Buck. We aren't going away from having OSMs(ASMs at Delta). That is simply not economically possible. That you can blame on the MROs. Having said that I don't have a problem with having OSMs if the program has limits. See when Delta started the ASM program, call junior mechanic, it was started as a way to get people in the door and their feet wet before they got their tickets. Not a bad thing. Also some of the back shops are simply not economical anymore if they are 100% A&P staffed. This is something that I talked about above, we have to allow for some things such as OSMs to keep ourselves competitive with MROs. 
 
Having said that, limits need to be placed on the program. It needs to be a fair number. You guys are just out of BK so the OSM thing sucked because people had to move down, but if your union protects and adds scope those people would be able to bump back up to mechanic again. (I know this because its exactly what happened at Delta. We had a bunch of people go down to ASM but it didn't take long for them to make it back to AMT) This is also why if I were you and your union I would be pushing for MRO work, that means growth, growth means more bodies and movement. 
 
also I wouldn't go barking up the fleet tree on this. Fleet (at least at Delta) has part timers. You really want to be down graded to part time AMT in trade for getting rid of all OSMs? company would be all over that.  
 

 

[WeAAsles]

Ok I know this is Jim Cramer and he's hit or miss but he does have a following with the casual investor.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tumblr/blog-the-market-says-these-stocks-forecast-a-recession-231213510.html

 

[WeAAsles]

So taking note back on topic. SWA will receive PS equal to 15.6% of their gross earnings for 2015 or roughly 3 months take home pay (SWAMT)

I'm beginning to think I work for K Mart?

 

[dfw gen]

So taking note back on topic. SWA will receive PS equal to 15.6% of their gross earnings for 2015 or roughly 3 months take home pay (SWAMT)

I'm beginning to think I work for K Mart?

Beginning? This the legacy America West airlines! Before you know it you will have to buy stock as a condition of employment!

 

[WeAAsles]

Beginning? This the legacy America West airlines! Before you know it you will have to buy stock as a condition of employment!

I did buy the stock actually (LCC) and the Wunderkinds aren't making me too happy in that area now either. SMH.

 

[1AA]

I remember when Crandall started the profit sharing program back in the mid eighties. It was not contractual by any means. It was distributed to all employees as a thank you for making the company profitable by your hard work. I'll admit that the distribution formula was not equal across the board but the checks were great. Too bad the TWU made it contractual and eventually we lost it. A company benefit turned over to the union and eventually became extinct. Three of the best paying airlines for AMT'S still have profit sharing and a generous one at that. Alaska Airlines, SouthWest Airlines and Delta Airlines. AMFA represents two and one is non union. Highest paid, profit sharing and no TWU or IAM industrial union to screw things up. We want what they have but not willing to fight for it by getting rid of industrial unionism for the AMT'S. We are a sorry bunch of characters.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2016/02/southwest-announces-record-620-million-profit-share-for-employees.html/

 

[eolesen]

So taking note back on topic. SWA will receive PS equal to 15.6% of their gross earnings for 2015 or roughly 3 months take home pay (SWAMT)

I'm beginning to think I work for K Mart?

I've said for years that y'all should have just asked for WN's contract and benefits. It's not all perfume & roses, but it seems to have struck the right balance between management and labor for the past 30 years. Company makes money, employees share in it, but they don't have all the BS workrules and featherbedding that the TWU and IAM allowed to happen over decades of regressionary bargaining.

 

[WeAAsles]

I remember when Crandall started the profit sharing program back in the mid eighties. It was not contractual by any means. It was distributed to all employees as a thank you for making the company profitable by your hard work. I'll admit that the distribution formula was not equal across the board but the checks were great. Too bad the TWU made it contractual and eventually we lost it. A company benefit turned over to the union and eventually became extinct. Three of the best paying airlines for AMT'S still have profit sharing and a generous one at that. Alaska Airlines, SouthWest Airlines and Delta Airlines. AMFA represents two and one is non union. Highest paid, profit sharing and no TWU or IAM industrial union to screw things up. We want what they have but not willing to fight for it by getting rid of industrial unionism for the AMT'S. We are a sorry bunch of characters.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2016/02/southwest-announces-record-620-million-profit-share-for-employees.html/

Every post you make. Every single one has to point out your agenda without sticking to the subject. BTW my check engine light is on so let's blame that on those pesky industrial unions as well. Jeez.

Anyway listening to half of what you wrote and ignoring the other half. That's what I mean. Profit sharing or bonuses do not have to be a contractual item. It does show the true nature of the corporate think when every other one of your peers are thanking their employees monetarily for a job well done and the one you work for who also were blessed with massive profits ignores their employees contributions to that bottom line. We are the day to day operation. Without us you have no operation at all.

But maybe we should be thankful that some day we will see 3% above the current industry leader even if our counterpart received 22% of his gross wages in PS? UAL 15.6%. SWA ? (I forget at the moment)

At least we didn't get the insulting cookie basket this year (so far)

 

[WeAAsles]

I've said for years that y'all should have just asked for WN's contract and benefits. It's not all perfume & roses, but it seems to have struck the right balance between management and labor for the past 30 years. Company makes money, employees share in it, but they don't have all the BS workrules and featherbedding that the TWU and IAM allowed to happen over decades of regressionary bargaining.

Debatable E. SWA also only had one quarter in their entire existence where they didn't make a profit. That has to be factored in to the idea of doing things their way. Plus of course it's a very different operation and I'm sure always will be.

But please let me know when Parker declares that his workforce has a value outside of what's agreed to on paper. It's always nice to feel just a little appreciated.

 

[Buck]

who else do you want them to pick?
FX/5X isn't happening. Company will chew that one up and spit it out every time. (not that I agree but its just a fact)
 
Pre-TAESL shut down AA was at 30% outsourcing in 2014. I am not sure if 2015 will be the year it shows combined AA/US or if we will have to wait for 2016 numbers. (and remember US outsource ~55% of its total maintenance) 
 
We have talked about this before I feel like buck, you guys are outsourcing more and more. Your company and your union are calling this a "maintenance holiday" for all the new aircraft, but in reality they are pulling the wool over your eyes. 
 
You guys went from doing the majority of your components, all your engines and all your airframe work in-house to now only having 3* engines in-house (CFM56-7, CF6 and JT8 in house, CFM56-5, V2500, RB211, Trent 700, Trent 800, PW4000, CF34-10, GE90, GEnX and soon Trent XWB out of house) more and more components out of house (example, any airbus components in-house?) and a lot of airframe work out of house.
 
* the JT8 will be gone in a year, CF6 volume is wayyyy down. Wouldn't be shocked to see Doug try to send that engine out too
 
I disagree with you on this Buck. We aren't going away from having OSMs(ASMs at Delta). That is simply not economically possible. That you can blame on the MROs. Having said that I don't have a problem with having OSMs if the program has limits. See when Delta started the ASM program, call junior mechanic, it was started as a way to get people in the door and their feet wet before they got their tickets. Not a bad thing. Also some of the back shops are simply not economical anymore if they are 100% A&P staffed. This is something that I talked about above, we have to allow for some things such as OSMs to keep ourselves competitive with MROs. 
 
Having said that, limits need to be placed on the program. It needs to be a fair number. You guys are just out of BK so the OSM thing sucked because people had to move down, but if your union protects and adds scope those people would be able to bump back up to mechanic again. (I know this because its exactly what happened at Delta. We had a bunch of people go down to ASM but it didn't take long for them to make it back to AMT) This is also why if I were you and your union I would be pushing for MRO work, that means growth, growth means more bodies and movement. 
 
also I wouldn't go barking up the fleet tree on this. Fleet (at least at Delta) has part timers. You really want to be down graded to part time AMT in trade for getting rid of all OSMs? company would be all over that.  
 

In theory, a unionized work force. What is called, Apples to Apples and Oranges to Oranges?  FX/5X must be FEDX and UPS and why not SWA? The company chews that up because why? there are less mechanics 
 
The membership has little or no say  on the issue.  Infact the membership has little or no say on anything the TWU has done or is doing. That is part of the reason why the Line and Tulsa are against each other.
Tulsa is ultra-divided, Mechanics against Machinist and Fear which the TWU is very good at propagating 
 
I believe I said a Fleet Service OSM and this is why I ask, Fleet wants to be treated as an equal member but the have no sub-Fleet Service Clerks, a part time position is not the same. it was only a question.

 

[1AA]

Every post you make. Every single one has to point out your agenda without sticking to the subject. BTW my check engine light is on so let's blame that on those pesky industrial unions as well. Jeez.
Anyway listening to half of what you wrote and ignoring the other half. That's what I mean. Profit sharing or bonuses do not have to be a contractual item. It does show the true nature of the corporate think when every other one of your peers are thanking their employees monetarily for a job well done and the one you work for who also were blessed with massive profits ignores their employees contributions to that bottom line. We are the day to day operation. Without us you have no operation at all.
But maybe we should be thankful that some day we will see 3% above the current industry leader even if our counterpart received 22% of his gross wages in PS? UAL 15.6%. SWA ? (I forget at the moment)
At least we didn't get the insulting cookie basket this year (so far)

I guess your a bit upset since you weren't here in the 80s to see that money. Many of us were. We experienced being appreciated unlike the way management has been treating us since the 2003 givebacks. We actually bent over backwards for the company and cared about it and our jobs. You never experienced it but I did. So don't tell me about agendas. This topic is about profit sharing. Have a nice non profit sharing day.

 

[WeAAsles]

I guess your a bit upset since you weren't here in the 80s to see that money. Many of us were. We experienced being appreciated unlike the way management has been treating us since the 2003 givebacks. We actually bent over backwards for the company and cared about it and our jobs. You never experienced it but I did. So don't tell me about agendas. This topic is about profit sharing. Have a nice non profit sharing day.

Is today Profit Sharing day? You're right. None of us know what that means I guess with our new Ebenezer management team. I did hear about the glory days of PS at AA. But today management thinks if they give you a nice fleece jacket and a dry hamburger day we'll all feel the wellspring of appreciation and raise our Pom Poms in salute. Yea. Ok.

BTW reports coming in. An FA on another thread with 25 years at Delta (aren't we supposed to be competing to be better than them?) just reported that she got a $20,000 Profit Sharing check. I hope I read that right? $20,000.......

But I did get a pamphlet in the mail teaching me the best stretching exercises to protect my back.

Way to look out for me there AA. Thanks.

 

[Buck]

The best thing I ever received from American Airlines when considering the time it happened was two $50 AMEX gift checks from Bob Crandall, 1985?