Democracy In Action

[Overspeed]

You have to ask how he gave it away? The international, as they say, owns the contract. It is on the international to ensure the contract has the best interests of the membership at stake - not whats best for the international. Little was either out witted in the process, or it was all part of his plan to go along with the company. Let's take a walk down memory lane, the international was pushing to give up benefits way in excess of even the baggage handlers - why? They were trying to save headcount in exchange for all the concessions. Then, over the course of the subsequent years, the headcount was slashed anyway. Brilliant Jim. Any snap backs Jim?, Any provisions for automatic annual raises during stalled negotiations Jim? Nicely played. The so called voting process was very suspect - not unlike the AMFA card drive vote, or even the 95 contract vote. Is there a pattern here?

That's the best you've got on class twos and OT, they have never had a lot?

Who's ranting? I get paid to do this right - in my personal internet cafe. Wow, thanks for negotiating that in for me.

Challenged, if you are trying to defend the international - well. that is no challenge.

Troll Away

All union Int'l, Nat'ls, etc own the contract. Even AMP will when they get in because that is what the courts say not any of us. Sorry but that's the law.

Snap backs? Even Delle couldn't get that at UAL.

Yes, that's the best I got. If you want OT then you should probably not work in a Class II. Not sure what your point is unless you are saying you can't make the reduction in pay by working OT. I agree with that statement.

Internet cafe's are a local deal but I am glad you like it. We have an espresso machine in ours.

Challenged in the sense that anyone gets to speak on a BB without leaving themselves open to criticism. To your comment about me defending the Int'l, I think you meant to say that IT IS a challenge to try to defend them.

Bottom line, I think you can find fault with a lot that people do but the system is what it is. AMP, AMFA, IBT, IAW, APA, etc...they all struggle with issues of politics, laws, public perception, etc... The point is the problem cannot be narrowed down to a union it is the ideology and willingness of its membership to cut through the rhetoric. Most members look upon their union as a service organization, "I paid my dues now go get me a good contract." That is not how it is supposed to work. The leadership body makes decisions based on several factors based on what do our members want versus what is possible and it is the "what is possible" that is difficult to understand and communicate. Managing expectations versus reality and knowing how far your members will go and what are the limits they can be expected to step up. Will everyone participate in a job action if called upon? Does the membership fully understand and accept the risks? Do they know what the risks are? Etc...

 

[Overspeed]

Don/Bob/Kevin,

Jim gave away our contract with the concessions with no snap-backs. That's a fact. The pilot's and F/A's Int. presidents also voted for the concessions and guess what? (I know you know this but are afraid of admitting it.) Those unions had ELECTIONS for their int. officers and their respective presidents were voted out of office. When do we get to vote for our Int. Officers?

Conspiracy theory on the t/a? Are you so ignorant and blind that the colored flyer inserted in our ballot envelopes BY THE INTERNATIONAL advocated a YES vote?


SAN does not have OT for the taking. It comes with the nature of the size of our station. So since we can't work all the OT to make up for waht was stolen what should we do? "Lower our expectations" like the APPOINTED guy in NY that makes $182,000.00 a year?

Not ranting here. Just challenging your version of reality. By the way, love the alias. Still no one from the twu who supports the twu has the stones to stand tall before everyone. Typical.

Ken,
Jim did not give concessions without snap backs. That's your perception of reality. Even Delle (AMFA the craft union) did not get snap backs.

Yes the APA and APFA all got voted out and after many years of no action, the saber rattlers got voted out due to inaction. And your point is?

Conspiracy theory on the 2003 concessions. Read before you speak. Information has been sent out with every contract ballot. I have been seeing them since before the mid 80s. Are you blind?

SAN does not have OT? So what's your point? Nothing was stolen from you. You voted, I voted, we all voted. Just because you did not get the outcome you wanted does not mean it was stolen. You like democracy only when it suits you. Kind of like all your choices. Which union are we supporting this week? AMFA will solve all our problems...Oops that didn't work. I am going to run for office and change everything on the 565 (AMFA ticket)...oops that didn't work. How many times can you take your ball and go home? Stones...yeah...Ken...you don't got those. You have proven that!

Why are you complaining about just the TWU salaries? Did Delle deserve $200K plus a $500K retirement after all those concessions of no snap backs and jobs outsourced? Oh that's right, it wasn't his fault. The bad BK judges and corporate CEOs screwed him...or outsmarted that overpaid union official. Did you know that the corporate executives at those other airlines that shafted their workers and retirees were "rewarded" with huge golden parachutes in the $M's? Don't you think those DL, NW, UA, and US employees and members feel like they were stolen from? So the TWU choice allowed you to keep your pension and still allow you to "rant" in your SAN internet cafe about how you were stolen from?

Yeah, your right. The TWU sucks and should have let AA go to BK court in 2003 (remember, you don't have to be totally broke to go to CH11) lose our pension, shut down a bunch of Class IIs (SAN would be one), cut our pay below $30/hour, and have all our airframe overhaul and component shops closed. Then the Ken, Bob, and Chuck show would have been mackin' on their government cheese ranting in the unemployment line complaining about how the TWU should have taken the deal.

Ken, go mold another bust.

 

[strikeforce]

All union Int'l, Nat'ls, etc own the contract. Even AMP will when they get in because that is what the courts say not any of us. Sorry but that's the law.

Snap backs? Even Delle couldn't get that at UAL.

Yes, that's the best I got. If you want OT then you should probably not work in a Class II. Not sure what your point is unless you are saying you can't make the reduction in pay by working OT. I agree with that statement.

Internet cafe's are a local deal but I am glad you like it. We have an espresso machine in ours.

Challenged in the sense that anyone gets to speak on a BB without leaving themselves open to criticism. To your comment about me defending the Int'l, I think you meant to say that IT IS a challenge to try to defend them.

Bottom line, I think you can find fault with a lot that people do but the system is what it is. AMP, AMFA, IBT, IAW, APA, etc...they all struggle with issues of politics, laws, public perception, etc... The point is the problem cannot be narrowed down to a union it is the ideology and willingness of its membership to cut through the rhetoric. Most members look upon their union as a service organization, "I paid my dues now go get me a good contract." That is not how it is supposed to work. The leadership body makes decisions based on several factors based on what do our members want versus what is possible and it is the "what is possible" that is difficult to understand and communicate. Managing expectations versus reality and knowing how far your members will go and what are the limits they can be expected to step up. Will everyone participate in a job action if called upon? Does the membership fully understand and accept the risks? Do they know what the risks are? Etc...

With the TWU it's not a matter of who owns the contract, it's how much participation or say the membership has in the negotiation process. During the negotiations for 2001 agreement, a motion was made to allow Observers in negotiations, only to be denied by the local & INTL.

The misconception regarding unions is "who works for whom"??? Does labor work on behalf of the members, or does labor work for themselves and get paid to enrich themselves??? In other words....is the TWU leadership just going through the motions and appearing to negotiate with AA, and ultimately enriching the labor organization, or are they truly looking out for the membership????

I would agree that expectations and realities are not the same, but when you include a management team that has enriched themselves with 9 years worth of bonuses, the realities can be deluted and manipulated by the company. After all, they do control the numbers and graphs. Hasn't Bob Owens indicated that the company refused to provide the TWU negotiators with financial information????

 

[odie01]

Jim did not give concessions without snap backs. That's your perception of reality. Even Delle (AMFA the craft union) did not get snap backs.

Yes the APA and APFA all got voted out and after many years of no action, the saber rattlers got voted out due to inaction. And your point is?

Conspiracy theory on the 2003 concessions. Read before you speak. Information has been sent out with every contract ballot. I have been seeing them since before the mid 80s. Are you blind?

Jim is getting us a snap back! To when, 1950?

How can we the membership directly vote out our leadership, the ones who own the contract, its been several years of inaction?


I've never seen a ballot like last years TA ballot, with the, vote no and authoize a strike, and the leaflet on why its a good deal.

If it wasn't for the scared, brainwashed, majority of mechanics in Tulsa, you clowns would have been out of here years ago.

 

[DallasConehead]

Yeah, your right. The TWU sucks and should have let AA go to BK court in 2003 (remember, you don't have to be totally broke to go to CH11) lose our pension, shut down a bunch of Class IIs (SAN would be one), cut our pay below $30/hour, and have all our airframe overhaul and component shops closed. Then the Ken, Bob, and Chuck show would have been mackin' on their government cheese ranting in the unemployment line complaining about how the TWU should have taken the deal.

Ken, go mold another bust.

EH EH,,, errrumm... Lets change the subject, reality kinda sucks. Unless you subscribe to the "it was all a bluff" crowd.

 

[JimJimmyJim]

The people who are running that drive are the very ones that wanted all the TWA members at the bottom of the seniority list and wanted you all laid off first They don't want TWA people to have job security either. If you are really and MCI transplant (ex-TWA) then wake up. These guys are just using you and don't be gullible. If AMP is anything like AMFA (the union they backed before AMP) they will give up overhaul in a heart beat to get Line top pay and blame the TWU for it.

Good luck, you need it if you back those guys. I should have enough seniority if we lose airframe overhaul but by your nickname, you will probably not make it.

This is a total lie. I was at the union meeting at 514 when the vote was takin to put the TWA people on the bottom of the list. The vote passed by a huge margin. That vote never came into play since the TWU called in Kasher. He did it for them. I've argued many times with AMP organizers over dovetailing. I for one am not a big fan of it. Every AMP organizer I've talked to has been for it.

 

[Observer]

With the TWU it's not a matter of who owns the contract, it's how much participation or say the membership has in the negotiation process. During the negotiations for 2001 agreement, a motion was made to allow Observers in negotiations, only to be denied by the local & INTL.

The misconception regarding unions is "who works for whom"??? Does labor work on behalf of the members, or does labor work for themselves and get paid to enrich themselves??? In other words....is the TWU leadership just going through the motions and appearing to negotiate with AA, and ultimately enriching the labor organization, or are they truly looking out for the membership????

I would agree that expectations and realities are not the same, but when you include a management team that has enriched themselves with 9 years worth of bonuses, the realities can be deluted and manipulated by the company. After all, they do control the numbers and graphs. Hasn't Bob Owens indicated that the company refused to provide the TWU negotiators with financial information????

 

[strikeforce]

Ken,
Jim did not give concessions without snap backs. That's your perception of reality. Even Delle (AMFA the craft union) did not get snap backs.

Conspiracy theory on the 2003 concessions. Read before you speak. Information has been sent out with every contract ballot. I have been seeing them since before the mid 80s. Are you blind?

Sorry to interrupt your conversation Overspeed & Ken, but I need to chime in and ask Overspeed which snap backs he's referring to that we've received to date, as part of the 2003 concessions?????????

Was the April 16, 2003 Jim Little SERP letter to the membership included with your phone-in information because I didn't get that one??? I'm referring to the Pension Retention information AA sent the SEC protecting 45 senior managers, and information the TWU had knowledge of during negotiations, but failed to convey to the membership until after the vote??? In addition, did the TWU leadership include in the information packet the bonuses that management was entitled to recieve with the "Shared Sacrifice". Do you honestly believe that IF the membership knew about these TWO KEY pieces of information prior to the vote, that the concessionary deal would have passed????

By withholding information from the membership, I do believe the TWU and AA conspired to bamboozle the membership into accepting the deal. Could it be that the APFA knew about the SERP and provided their members with accurate information prior to their vote and maybe that's why their membership initially rejected their deal.

Overspeed, let's call a spade, a spade......the company was in desperation to get a deal done by April 15, 2003, and they, along with the union, did whatever it took to sell US the goods. That's the bottom line!!! It was the deception by the company and union to claim "Shared Sacrifice" when in fact only the workers took it in the shorts. That's why I don't trust the union and company. Add on to that.....nothing has changed regarding the operation. The company continues to lose loads of money; the operation is in the toilet and mis-managed; and the company cries poor, but has loads of money for all sorts of interior improvements and new aircraft. AA sure doesn't act like a company on the brink.

 

[Observer]

observers?? at negotiations???? that old saw that has been around since the 60s???? you vote for your local leadership to send the President to negotiate, and you need an observer to watch him???? When you quit your elected position way back in @2001 the reasons were really never advertised to the members were they, I think it was for personnal reasons, so be it. You have been crying the same song since 2003. It is time to focus on the here and now, and get over the nightmare of 2003. Or is it you can't move forward because you have a personnal score to settle?

 

[strikeforce]

observers?? at negotiations???? that old saw that has been around since the 60s???? you vote for your local leadership to send the President to negotiate, and you need an observer to watch him???? When you quit your elected position way back in @2001 the reasons were really never advertised to the members were they, I think it was for personnal reasons, so be it. You have been crying the same song since 2003. It is time to focus on the here and now, and get over the nightmare of 2003. Or is it you can't move forward because you have a personnal score to settle?

No, I want observers to watch Jim Little & Co.

As far as quitting my elected position....sorry to inform you, but it was prior to the raping of 2003 and it was during a lucrative period for the airlines and unions. I didn't have a score to settle with the local in 2001, and yes it was for personal reasons, and I remember posting a letter to the membership. get your facts straight!

I said it before and I will say it now....I will never forgive the union and company for placing me and my family in financial harm, especially when company & union executives continue to enrich themselves at our expense. I will never forget either. You and your TWU lovers can take that to the bank.

I'm going to do whatever it takes to get rid of the TWU.....you can bank on it, whoever you are (Observer)!!!!!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

"Jim did not give concessions without snap backs. That's your perception of reality. Even Delle (AMFA the craft union) did not get snap backs.

Yes the APA and APFA all got voted out and after many years of no action, the saber rattlers got voted out due to inaction. And your point is?

Conspiracy theory on the 2003 concessions. Read before you speak. Information has been sent out with every contract ballot. I have been seeing them since before the mid 80s. Are you blind?"


Don/Bob/Kevin,


Jim gave concessions and was free from ever being removed from office because he is NOT elected by the membership. THAT'S my point. You know, defending the twu from behind an alias makes you appear afraid to have people know who you really are. Defending the twu with the posts you churn out makes you appear as a tool.

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< -------- It seems Overspeed has resorted to dig up ghosts of days past (TWA) to deflect attention away from the fact that the TWU has, and still is, selling it's membership down the river for the sole purpose but to maintain, and persevere, it's healthy cash flow of dues money, and company kickbacks!------ And let me state right here and now, for the record, that I am "not", I'll repeat that, so there is no misunderstanding, I am "not", in anyway, affiliated with either AMFA, or AMP!!!------ Do I believe, either, would be an improvement over what you have now?----- You bet I do!!! In fact, I feel, no Union at all, would be an improvement!!!

 

[Overspeed]

"Jim did not give concessions without snap backs. That's your perception of reality. Even Delle (AMFA the craft union) did not get snap backs.

Yes the APA and APFA all got voted out and after many years of no action, the saber rattlers got voted out due to inaction. And your point is?

Conspiracy theory on the 2003 concessions. Read before you speak. Information has been sent out with every contract ballot. I have been seeing them since before the mid 80s. Are you blind?"


Don/Bob/Kevin,


Jim gave concessions and was free from ever being removed from office because he is NOT elected by the membership. THAT'S my point. You know, defending the twu from behind an alias makes you appear afraid to have people know who you really are. Defending the twu with the posts you churn out makes you appear as a tool.

Bob/JR/Chuck , (Yeah I know you are not them but I am not those guys either, take off your foil hat)

Jim did not give concessions. Jim was present but again, the negotiating team was in the driver seat. In fact, if you spoke to anyone who was there, several people wanted to take the process out until BK thinking it was BS. When they realized it was a very real possibility they started really putting together plans. Not Jim, but the Local Presidents. The ones that were democratically elected by the membership. Tell the truth Bob/JR/Chuck, your distortions are worthy of being on Fox News or even to the level of Baghdad Bob.

You could have tried to remove your President could you have not? I have read Local 564 Bylaws and you guys have that power. Didn't do it did you? Why Bob/JR/Chuck? Why? You know less about the union you are in and you talk as if you know everything.

Better to be thought a tool then actually be one Ken.

Aliases have been around a long time. You know the many of the Founding Fathers wrote many letters under aliases. Those guys were tools too right? Not saying I rate there at all but while you see aliases as a weakness I see you using your real name as false bravado. Nothing more than puffing out your chest with very little substance or facts to back up your flavor of the month union.

 

[Overspeed]

observers?? at negotiations???? that old saw that has been around since the 60s???? you vote for your local leadership to send the President to negotiate, and you need an observer to watch him???? When you quit your elected position way back in @2001 the reasons were really never advertised to the members were they, I think it was for personnal reasons, so be it. You have been crying the same song since 2003. It is time to focus on the here and now, and get over the nightmare of 2003. Or is it you can't move forward because you have a personnal score to settle?

You'r right. We pay dues (70% goes to Locals) to send our Presidents to negotiations. Why do we need observers? We have our democratically elected representative there getting paid by us! They get nice hotel rooms, steak dinners (a lot of them apparently because very few are under 300lbs), rental cars, and a salary. What the hell for if they need to be "observed"?

Sounds like the some members that rant should try running for office. If they don't get voted in then shut up...just saying.

 

[MCI transplant]

You'r right. We pay dues (70% goes to Locals) to send our Presidents to negotiations. Why do we need observers? We have our democratically elected representative there getting paid by us! They get nice hotel rooms, steak dinners (a lot of them apparently because very few are under 300lbs), rental cars, and a salary. What the hell for if they need to be "observed"?

Sounds like the some members that rant should try running for office. If they don't get voted in then shut up...just saying.

<_< ------ Typical reply! ---------"Why do you need observers"? Simple----- To keep them "HONEST"!!!! If they don't have anything to hide, what's the problem???