Another Reason #2

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

. I wont be blaming the Constitution, the International, or some Politician, I will know exactly what took place and who and what is to blame. Nothing I can do but ride and survive. This game is not new.

Ive been saying the same thing for the last three contracts.
And I have never worked OH 😉

 

[Overspeed]

#1 eroding of the craft with B-scale, SRP, loss of benefits is why most work is in-house.
Once you erode the pay and benefits to beat the MRO it's easy to keep in-house.

#2 we give plenty to the AFL-CIO, why haven't they pressured the regulators and organized the MRO's?
Seems you readily admit the current strategy we rely upon is failing.

Bringing overhaul wages down has been the TWU strategy for over 20 years now. All the while paying into the AFL-CIO.
So you need to direct your last questions in that direction instead of to the rest of us dues payers hoping for sound union leadership.

Can you even see the flaw within your own union that has failed to accomplish your list of common sense ideas?
Or is it Ken's fault? I have not been paying Ken 2 hours pay per month for 28 years to get done what you are describing.

Who exactly do you think should pressure the regulators and organize the MRO's?
We could just keep spending our dues money on Big Splash, Talons Tickets, Oilers Tickets, Halloween Parties, and other non-germane BS and then post on a bulletin board that something like organizing and pressuring should be taking place instead. OMG you're killing me.

#1 the B-scale has been gone since 1991 and not a TWU idea, SRP's were in response to everyone else contracting out like Southwest, Morris Air, Western Pacific, Valuejet(AirTran), other LCCs, etc... flex benefits started with other companies like People's Express and CAL.

#2 they have been pressuring, the number of unionized workers has dropped and that is a problem. Since Reagan's groundbreaking step to fire union workers, the flood gates opened and labor has been under attack ever since.

 

[Overspeed]

Let me know when the arbitration decision is handed down. If won, you might have something worth tooting your horn about.
My bet is you quietly go back to kissing company ass to save your job.
Most real unions would file the court action and let a judge decide if it is major or minor.
If for no other reason than to show a willingness to fight.
But not the TWU, instead we probably have another lobbyist we call an attorney who allowed the contract language to be so weak to begin with and TWU will lose this one too.

Go Drink more profession killing Kool-Aid

Better than the job-killing AMP energy drink. "Drink AMP. Action now, big crash later!"

 

[Buck]

#1 the B-scale has been gone since 1991 and not a TWU idea, SRP's were in response to everyone else contracting out like Southwest, Morris Air, Western Pacific, Valuejet(AirTran), other LCCs, etc... flex benefits started with other companies like People's Express and CAL.

#2 they have been pressuring, the number of unionized workers has dropped and that is a problem. Since Reagan's groundbreaking step to fire union workers, the flood gates opened and labor has been under attack ever since.

Those of us who have lived the B-Scale, have lost income and potentially 401k return on investment. But it was only ten years of income and or returns, so you are correct it is gone. It does not matter who came up with the idea, what matters is that the TWU even presented it. Your knowledge of the airlines and the outsourcing, it would seem that some of them were at the beginning of the deregulation era. Why didn't the TWU make a move at that time to at least attempt to stop the outsourcing? After all the TWU is a very strong organization, with all kinds of political friends, whom I have seen in use recently 😉 .

I tire of the use of the Reagan Scenario. If the unions had stuck together, if the pilots had kept their promise (correct me please), then the outcome could have been different.

Of course the airlines could have chosen not to deregulate and this country could not had the Civil War.

 

[Overspeed]

"

Those of us who have lived the B-Scale, have lost income and potentially 401k return on investment. But it was only ten years of income and or returns, so you are correct it is gone. It does not matter who came up with the idea, what matters is that the TWU even presented it. Your knowledge of the airlines and the outsourcing, it would seem that some of them were at the beginning of the deregulation era. Why didn't the TWU make a move at that time to at least attempt to stop the outsourcing? After all the TWU is a very strong organization, with all kinds of political friends, whom I have seen in use recently 😉 .

I tire of the use of the Reagan Scenario. If the unions had stuck together, if the pilots had kept their promise (correct me please), then the outcome could have been different.

Of course the airlines could have chosen not to deregulate and this country could not had the Civil War.

The airlines wanted de-regulation? Seriously? You are ill-informed. The majors fought it. Don't you remember mutual aid pacts between the airlines to screw the unions? National Airlines went on strike every other year. They loved regulation.

You f**king academic eggheads! You don't know ####. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!"

— Robert L. Crandall, CEO American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline deregulation, 1977.

The architect was Alfred Kahn. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/29/business/29kahn.html

"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."

"Pan Am can go to hell."

— Alfred E. Kahn, Chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board.

And Crandall pitched the B-scale to all the unions at AA and they all bought in to it for the sakes of growing the airline. The TWU did not bring on the B-Scale. That happened and is the reason you and I got hired. I was a b-scaler too and no I didn't like it but I will say this. The choices our union made allowed us to still be bargaining for overhaul, pensions, and many other benefits the other guys do not have and are praying they get back. Our ex-TWA brothers and sisters would much rather be in our shoes. I work alongside ex-CAL, ex-EAL, and ex-PA people and they all would have rather been working for AA "suffering" under the TWU/AA agreement. Yes it could be better but here we are for better or worse.

 

[TWU informer]

At what point do folks like overspeed and others stop the blame game and do something?

Sure B-Scale has been gone awhile, but Reagan is also dead but that doesn't stop you from bringing him up.

And yes SRP/OSM was in response to outsourcing, but TWU bringing that on board is a far cry from organizing the MRO's as you said earlier.
It is actually just the opposite of what you orignially proposed to bringing them up instead of us down. But your excuses makes it all good...in your mind only.
TWU cannot organize because their own membership cannot stand to belong and will talk the potential new workers/members out of joining the POS Union. I have seen that right here on these bulletin boards.

Of course they have just enough political clout to stop the current members from getting a ballot to remove them or at least choose the representation of their choice which is also the LAW that you like to wave around when it is within your unrelenting excuse building.

I would like to someday understand the logic that preventing free and open union choice is anywhere near as detrimental as the current state and policies of organized labor and NO RAID clauses of the AFL-CIO.


You are the typical TWU/Stooge/Liberal, never leading a revolt instead capitulating and blaming someone or something else.

You are an expert at nothing but deflecting blame and making excuses.

The truth is, the AFL-CIO, the TWU, and most all of Labor has no back bone, does nothing but continue reliance on back stabbing politicians, and because of their corruption and public stooges, and Anti-Democratic polilcies, even the lowest paid worker rejects becoming unionized.

Best I can read from history, decent gains in labor have never come easy, and not likely to ever come from a bunch of spoiled unproductive workers that have been trained to never be disobedient to the law and always make political signs, lobby, walk precincts, contirbute to PAC's and let the Union Leader save us from ourselves, because they...just like you know everything and what is best.


And lastly the laughable.
In one sentence you claim TWU did not bring the B-Scale but then claim that is why we were hired.
TWU was and has been the bargaining agent at AA since 1947 for AMT's. So if not TWU, then who? Did some other Union spend 1983 secretly representing ATM's from behind the Wizard of Oz Curtain?

Your own statements are oxy-moronic and nothing more than twisted thinking.

 

[Buck]

"

The airlines wanted de-regulation? Seriously? You are ill-informed. The majors fought it. Don't you remember mutual aid pacts between the airlines to screw the unions? National Airlines went on strike every other year. They loved regulation.

So if the airlines wanted deregulation and the majors fought, where was the TWU to prevent it happening from those other than major airlines from having it forced upon them?


You f**king academic eggheads! You don't know ####. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!"

— Robert L. Crandall, CEO American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline deregulation, 1977.

Nice quote, wish we had RLC back maybe he could start a new B-Scale. What happened in 1983 can happen again today. The membership threw the pre-hire members under the TWU bus and you claim it is what got you hired. Your skill and ability had nothing to do with it. So you are indicating that it really does not take any skill to be in the TWU, just labor relations and political clout to get you hired, did I get it right?


The architect was Alfred Kahn. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/29/business/29kahn.html

"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."

"Pan Am can go to hell."

— Alfred E. Kahn, Chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board.

I wonder why the TWU did not instruct Mr. Kahn what an airplane was?

So this deregulation started with President Carter in 1978 and then came the 1983 contract and Kahn made a statement in 2010? I am not sure of the correlation. The TWU talks about their strength but has never used it at AA since 1984. Yes they did , once, they had a member fired for not complying with their closed shop agenda.

You are using a quote about a company that is gone. What about today?

Airline problems today are passengers who now have deregulation, want regulation.

And Crandall pitched the B-scale to all the unions at AA and they all bought in to it for the sakes of growing the airline. The TWU did not bring on the B-Scale. That happened and is the reason you and I got hired. I was a b-scaler too and no I didn't like it but I will say this. The choices our union made allowed us to still be bargaining for overhaul, pensions, and many other benefits the other guys do not have and are praying they get back. Our ex-TWA brothers and sisters would much rather be in our shoes. I work alongside ex-CAL, ex-EAL, and ex-PA people and they all would have rather been working for AA "suffering" under the TWU/AA agreement. Yes it could be better but here we are for better or worse.

Crandall pitches the B-Scale and the TWU swings and misses, C-Scale,SRP and OSM and your out. The growing airline, don't you mean the growing TWU? No the TWU may not have brought the B-Scale, but they accepted it. Since you are responding to me, the TWU nor the B-Scale got me hired, it was nepotism and the fact that there was an opening.

For better or worse? How about the freedom to elect the international officers? How about unionized free market by truly separating the mechanics from fleet service.

Pension, tell me am I going to get one? All of it.

Are there ex-CAL, ex-EAL and ex-PA working at the international too?

I speak daily with ex-TWA employees, they state that in the airlines day, they had it very good. Now they are under the TWU and you believe it to be any different? All the airlines you mention have had their demise, if American is next, where are all these satisfied employees going to next?

 

[Overspeed]

At what point do folks like overspeed and others stop the blame game and do something?

Sure B-Scale has been gone awhile, but Reagan is also dead but that doesn't stop you from bringing him up.

And yes SRP/OSM was in response to outsourcing, but TWU bringing that on board is a far cry from organizing the MRO's as you said earlier.
It is actually just the opposite of what you orignially proposed to bringing them up instead of us down. But your excuses makes it all good...in your mind only.
TWU cannot organize because their own membership cannot stand to belong and will talk the potential new workers/members out of joining the POS Union. I have seen that right here on these bulletin boards.

Of course they have just enough political clout to stop the current members from getting a ballot to remove them or at least choose the representation of their choice which is also the LAW that you like to wave around when it is within your unrelenting excuse building.

I would like to someday understand the logic that preventing free and open union choice is anywhere near as detrimental as the current state and policies of organized labor and NO RAID clauses of the AFL-CIO.


You are the typical TWU/Stooge/Liberal, never leading a revolt instead capitulating and blaming someone or something else.

You are an expert at nothing but deflecting blame and making excuses.

The truth is, the AFL-CIO, the TWU, and most all of Labor has no back bone, does nothing but continue reliance on back stabbing politicians, and because of their corruption and public stooges, and Anti-Democratic polilcies, even the lowest paid worker rejects becoming unionized.

Best I can read from history, decent gains in labor have never come easy, and not likely to ever come from a bunch of spoiled unproductive workers that have been trained to never be disobedient to the law and always make political signs, lobby, walk precincts, contirbute to PAC's and let the Union Leader save us from ourselves, because they...just like you know everything and what is best.


And lastly the laughable.
In one sentence you claim TWU did not bring the B-Scale but then claim that is why we were hired.
TWU was and has been the bargaining agent at AA since 1947 for AMT's. So if not TWU, then who? Did some other Union spend 1983 secretly representing ATM's from behind the Wizard of Oz Curtain?

Your own statements are oxy-moronic and nothing more than twisted thinking.

So when I make statements they are blaming someone else, you make them and they are...? Misdirection and sleight of hand.

SRP's were the response and outsourcing was immediate, organizing takes a while. You are a union organizer apparently so you must know this. How many failed drives have you sponsored now? The TWU is making inroads while the organizations you back - AMFA and the re-branded version AMP - have shown the path to failure. All those jobs lost in the good fight (or beat down) were worth it right?

Craft unions are old too, will you please stop bringing them up as well? No, because in order yo understand what is the best path forward you must learn from the past. EAL, PA, NW, UAL1, CAL1, CAL2, US1, US2, TWA, AS, etc... what did those unions do? Whatever they did resulted in almost all their overhaul gone. I'm not in favor of doing that, craft union or industrial union. The TWU has taken a different path and while you are hyper critical of it, the union enabled you to still remain here complaining about the TWU.

Anti-democratic? Really? Did you vote for your local officers or delegates? They vote on the International officers. The popular vote does not elect the President of the US? You elect a delegate for the electoral college, just as you elect a delegate for the convention. Appointments in the interim for officers as well as to work on assignment is not unusual or uncommon.

Your last sentence about who represented the AMTs? That does not make sense. The major labor groups at AA were all represented by unions that accepted B-scales. As I said, the TWU was not the only one here. The deal was that the B-scale would enable AA to grow which it did. By 1991 it was gone, but you can keep blaming - excuse me, you don't blame. Sorry.

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[TWU informer]

A solution would be to start pressuring the regulators to stop giving all these BS MRO's a free pass on inspections. Start organizing these non-union companies so they make the same money and benefits as our people. Why bring our overhaul guys down to their wages, instead bring them up.

SRP's were the response and outsourcing was immediate, organizing takes a while. You are a union organizer apparently so you must know this. How many failed drives have you sponsored now? The TWU is making inroads while the organizations you back - AMFA and the re-branded version AMP - have shown the path to failure. All those jobs lost in the good fight (or beat down) were worth it right?

OK so from one post above, you claim the solution is to "start" organizing these non-union MRO's and ask "Why bring our overhaul guys down to their wages, instead bring them up."

Then in another post you claim "organizing takes awhile" and then go on claiming TWU is making inroads.

So that leaves me to beg the question. If the 1995 SRP was in response to outsource and impact was immediate, and TWU is making inroads in organizing, then why exactly after 16 years (SIXTEEN YEARS) do we still have no TWU represented MRO and yet will still have a starting wage for the SRP/OSM that is less than my 1983 entry rate of pay of $10.00 per hour which is now 28 years ago? How many years do you need to implement your plan? I am scratching my head trying to figure out your logic and actually presume you're just a plain ordinary liar instead of a logical thinker. The truth is TWU organizing of Non-Union MRO's either has not really started yet, or TWU has failed miserably. My bet is your first statement about time to "Start" organizing is most accurate. Therefore TWU has been satisfied with lowest entry pay in the indsutry dues payers, and your claim of "organizing takes time" is an outright lie.

Meanwhile AMFA represents the current #1 and #2 in pay AMT classification of the passenger carriers in the US.
Southwest and Alaska.
FAILURE?

And so your response will predictably be "they dont do overhaul". Yet the TWU has much lower paid line AMT's in addition to the lowest entry pay in the overhaul business, including lower than domestic MRO's. And you call this a great success TWU story and the different path that you hold in high regard.

Would you also call 50,000 unionized employees making $4.50 per hour a success since you seem to measure success based on how many dues payers there are instead of maintaining industry leading pay and benefit and measuring on standard of living? I mean how low does the limbo pole have to go before you can visualize failure?

Where do you draw the line on lowering pay and benefits below industry standards in exchange for dues payers?
Can we expect that the Tulsa Base will be full of workers in the year 2020 but they will be working part time for $7.95 per hour and no health benefits or retirement? And you will still be on this bulletin board claiming a path of success for the TWU?
Of course you will

 

[Hopeful]

OK so from one post above, you claim the solution is to "start" organizing these non-union MRO's and ask "Why bring our overhaul guys down to their wages, instead bring them up."

Wasn't that the logic when Bill Clinton and other proponents endorsed NAFTA? Let's bring Mexico wages UP to USA wages???????????????? We all know that's not how it turned out!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Wasn't that the logic when Bill Clinton and other proponents endorsed NAFTA? Let's bring Mexico wages UP to USA wages???????????????? We all know that's not how it turned out!

Looking back, Bob Dole (at the time, the Senate Republican Leader) held a late-night session to pass NAFTA for Billy Bob Clinton. How's that for "togetherness"? Both the 'Pubs and Demoncrats working together for our "benefit" and that of the country - does that give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside?

Lessons to learn - political parties exist to give people like us something to argue about while those elected or appointed go about their business of undercutting the country and its people unopposed.

Endgame for both "parties" is the same - total control of the population. The solution for the citizen is the same as it was for the future USA in 1775 and in France in 1793.

 

[Hopeful]

Looking back, Bob Dole (at the time, the Senate Republican Leader) held a late-night session to pass NAFTA for Billy Bob Clinton. How's that for "togetherness"? Both the 'Pubs and Demoncrats working together for our "benefit" and that of the country - does that give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside?

Lessons to learn - political parties exist to give people like us something to argue about while those elected or appointed go about their business of undercutting the country and its people unopposed.

Endgame for both "parties" is the same - total control of the population. The solution for the citizen is the same as it was for the future USA in 1775 and in France in 1793.

true,, the proponents were more republicans,,,,but that is to be expected. Dems and repubs are all cut from the same cloth...One party admits their dislike for the working man and women, the other pretends to be the friend of labor but never follows through!

 

[FWAAA]

NAFTA was ratified by the Senate by a vote of 61-38. 27 Democrats voted in favor plus 34 Republicans:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-11-21/news/mn-59485_1_trade-pact

Democrats controlled the Senate by a margin of 57 to 43 at the time; thus, Democrats could have rejected NAFTA if they had wanted to. But instead their boy wonder from Arkansas championed NAFTA and pushed for its ratification. They did as he asked.

Yet for some reason, organized labor leaders continue to insist that handing Democrats millions and millions of dollars buys them friends in government. Not a whole lot different than the reason state lotteries bring in billions of dollars.

 

[Frank Szabo]

NAFTA was ratified by the Senate by a vote of 61-38. 27 Democrats voted in favor plus 34 Republicans:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-11-21/news/mn-59485_1_trade-pact

Democrats controlled the Senate by a margin of 57 to 43 at the time; thus, Democrats could have rejected NAFTA if they had wanted to. But instead their boy wonder from Arkansas championed NAFTA and pushed for its ratification. They did as he asked.

Yet for some reason, organized labor leaders continue to insist that handing Democrats millions and millions of dollars buys them friends in government. Not a whole lot different than the reason state lotteries bring in billions of dollars.

There are many things I'd be elated to send politicians and social democrats but none of those things involve money - just metric measurements and model numbers.

 

[Mr Red]

NAFTA was ratified by the Senate by a vote of 61-38. 27 Democrats voted in favor plus 34 Republicans:

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-11-21/news/mn-59485_1_trade-pact

Democrats controlled the Senate by a margin of 57 to 43 at the time; thus, Democrats could have rejected NAFTA if they had wanted to. But instead their boy wonder from Arkansas championed NAFTA and pushed for its ratification. They did as he asked.

Yet for some reason, organized labor leaders continue to insist that handing Democrats millions and millions of dollars buys them friends in government. Not a whole lot different than the reason state lotteries bring in billions of dollars.

Need to get the FACTS straight, Daddy Bush tried to fast track it before he got booted,Clinton put in some safeguards for us workers such as no mexican trucks into US interior untill bush Jr repealed that !