Democracy In Action

[strikeforce]

odie, I didn't realize I was outing you as an unsat mech...................I just wanted strikeforce to justify his discipline stance within AMP.

Article VII of the AMP Constitution "Disciplinary Hearings"......read it! Then compare that with and/or try finding something similar in the TWU Constitution?

 

[Overspeed]

We all know you got yours. As far as the rest of us AMTs & related...... well, we HAD ours; until your hero, Jim Little gave it all away. There is nothing that great, or out of the ordinary with any of the items you listed. Unlimited OT, check with some of the class two stations about that. Here is the deal, we don't need a union rep, that uses your logic, negotiating on our behalf.

Jim gave it away? How? He didn't even vote on the TA. Even if all the conspiracy theories about ballot issues are true, the vote was close. A LOT of members felt that concessions were the way to go.

Class IIs have never had tons of OT. Check out the OT in DFW! My buddies there tell me they OT is there for the taking!

Here's the deal, are you looking for a place to rant without being challenged?

 

[odie01]

Bob,
What's going on, can we get released this month? or are they going to string it out a few more?

 

[strikeforce]

First, Gilboy did NOT recommend the TA, I asked him if the local was pushing for a yes vote, he stated "here is the information, and you can make your own decision."

As far as the international goes, I doubt there is any conspiracy to keep our wages low by the TWU or for the TWU to keep a lessor quality mech on the payroll.

There is nothing in the TWU constitution for disciplining it's own members for poor job performance (which management should be doing). Some of our worst employees are crew chiefs working closely with
management.

My question for strikeforce or Ken is. Is there anything in the AMP constitution to discipline the membership for poor job performance, professional standards, or any other form of being a poor representation of our craft like pencil whipping, sleeping on duty, not wearing the uniform as it should be worn, inappropriate drawings on safety vest....etc

an article or section reference would be good, so we all can read it ourselves. Thank you.

Gilboy voted yes to bring the POS T/A forward for membership vote. If that's not considered a recommendation, then what is????

The INTL conspires with management to create lower classifications....i.e. OSM'S, SRP's and ASM'S in exchange for in-house work.....i.e. DUES!!! It would be ok with me, as long as they compensate the rest of the licensed AMT's current market rates.....i.e. SWA, UPS, Fed EX. Just look over the failed T/A, what was the top out rate for AMT's.....$37-38. Not even close to those other carriers. Now, look at our current table position.....$39-41...and the INTL is upset with our negotiators. Don't tell me the union and company aren't in bed together.

 

[Duke787]

Article VII of the AMP Constitution "Disciplinary Hearings"......read it! Then compare that with and/or try finding something similar in the TWU Constitution?

1. Willfully acting as a strike-breaker (scab) during any duly authorized strike, as determined by the striking authority;
2. Willful violation of this Constitution and Bylaws;
3. Willful neglect in paying dues, assessments, or fines levied by the Association;
4. Misappropriating money or property of the Association;
5. Willful violation of the working agreement
6. Initiating and/or prosecuting charges under this article in bad faith (for example, malicious or frivolous charges) against another AMP member;
7. Any act contrary to the best interests of the AMP as an institution or its membership as a whole.
8. Any act motivated by malice or political animus that exposes another member to company discipline, up to and including termination.

Nothing in there about being a bad employee/job performance, maybe you and odie should stop trying to be a spokesman for AMP. If you are going to go on and on about AMP, you should know what you are talking about.

I'm not apposed to AMP, but when you are spreading misinformation and speculation stated as fact, you are not acting in the best interest of our union brothers a lot of mechs like the rhetoric they hear and don't bother finding out the facts. Until TUL gets on board, this is a lot of wasted time.

 

[Duke787]

Gilboy voted yes to bring the POS T/A forward for membership vote. If that's not considered a recommendation, then what is????

The INTL conspires with management to create lower classifications....i.e. OSM'S, SRP's and ASM'S in exchange for in-house work.....i.e. DUES!!! It would be ok with me, as long as they compensate the rest of the licensed AMT's current market rates.....i.e. SWA, UPS, Fed EX. Just look over the failed T/A, what was the top out rate for AMT's.....$37-38. Not even close to those other carriers. Now, look at our current table position.....$39-41...and the INTL is upset with our negotiators. Don't tell me the union and company aren't in bed together.

When I ask Gilboy "if the local was pushing for a yes vote?" and he says "here is the information, and you can make your own decision." I take that as, "here is the information, and you can make your own decision."

I don't speculate what another man means.

I'm curious to know, how YOU know that the international is upset? Did Jim Little put out a statement? Did Jim call you up personally? Is the international emailing you "hey strikeforce, we're upset with your negotiations."

Why aren't you complaining about Bob the same as you complain about Gilboy? Sounds like you have something personal against Gilboy, because you don't hold Bob to the same standards. The current committee doesn't even ask for market rate for a line mech. So far we have lost out on over $6k and counting in cash alone, and we have given AA another year of cheap labor. I for one would like to have a seperate contract from OH with the TWU or AMP.

It could be worse the APFA doesn't even have negotiations scheduled.

 

[Overspeed]

I'm curious to know, how YOU know that the international is upset? Did Jim Little put out a statement? Did Jim call you up personally? Is the international emailing you "hey strikeforce, we're upset with your negotiations."

Bob probably said that the Int'l is upset so that makes it true. Just read his rants. Owens makes it sound as if he runs the committee, is the only one who tells the truth, the stalwart of free flowing information, and will not compromise.

In reality, Owens represents only ~500 roll call votes, tells his version of the truth (which is made up of facts taken out of context), is the unionized version of Wikileaks (dubious motivation and questionable integrity), and due to his inability to rationalize and compromise undermines the very meaning of the negotiation process (wants to use the process for payback of how he believes he was wronged by management).

 

[Vortilon]

Jim gave it away? How? He didn't even vote on the TA. Even if all the conspiracy theories about ballot issues are true, the vote was close. A LOT of members felt that concessions were the way to go.

Class IIs have never had tons of OT. Check out the OT in DFW! My buddies there tell me they OT is there for the taking!

Here's the deal, are you looking for a place to rant without being challenged?

You have to ask how he gave it away? The international, as they say, owns the contract. It is on the international to ensure the contract has the best interests of the membership at stake - not whats best for the international. Little was either out witted in the process, or it was all part of his plan to go along with the company. Let's take a walk down memory lane, the international was pushing to give up benefits way in excess of even the baggage handlers - why? They were trying to save headcount in exchange for all the concessions. Then, over the course of the subsequent years, the headcount was slashed anyway. Brilliant Jim. Any snap backs Jim?, Any provisions for automatic annual raises during stalled negotiations Jim? Nicely played. The so called voting process was very suspect - not unlike the AMFA card drive vote, or even the 95 contract vote. Is there a pattern here?

That's the best you've got on class twos and OT, they have never had a lot?

Who's ranting? I get paid to do this right - in my personal internet cafe. Wow, thanks for negotiating that in for me.

Challenged, if you are trying to defend the international - well. that is no challenge.

Troll Away

 

[strikeforce]

1. Willfully acting as a strike-breaker (scab) during any duly authorized strike, as determined by the striking authority;
2. Willful violation of this Constitution and Bylaws;
3. Willful neglect in paying dues, assessments, or fines levied by the Association;
4. Misappropriating money or property of the Association;
5. Willful violation of the working agreement
6. Initiating and/or prosecuting charges under this article in bad faith (for example, malicious or frivolous charges) against another AMP member;
7. Any act contrary to the best interests of the AMP as an institution or its membership as a whole.
8. Any act motivated by malice or political animus that exposes another member to company discipline, up to and including termination.

Nothing in there about being a bad employee/job performance, maybe you and odie should stop trying to be a spokesman for AMP. If you are going to go on and on about AMP, you should know what you are talking about.

I'm not apposed to AMP, but when you are spreading misinformation and speculation stated as fact, you are not acting in the best interest of our union brothers a lot of mechs like the rhetoric they hear and don't bother finding out the facts. Until TUL gets on board, this is a lot of wasted time.

Duke, I know who you are, and I assumed you were more intelligent than you appear. It's quite obvious that you want specific facts that say "if your lazy or unprofessional, you will be fined or terminated". I wish labor organizations had such language, but they don't. #6, 7 & 8 above would suffice for me when our guys turn other members into HR. How many cases have we had where guys run to HR for pettiness name calling or "your harrassing me!". #7 would cover Laziness and being Unprofessional because those traits are NOT in the best interests of the organization or membership.
The job of union leaders is to educate and provide consultation to it's people regarding the EXPECTIONS and STANDARDS of the organization. I've never witnessed the local leadership pulling someone aside and educating the individuals on what's expected of them. Have you??? Why not pull that individual that writes propaganda on his vest and tell him to remove or replace his vest?? That guy makes everyone look bad!! So, why doesn't Gilboy & Co. do it? Why don't you ask Gilboy next time he comes around? I know the answer because Steve and I have had this discussion, but you want facts, so you ask him.

So, you don't want AMP, but you want accountability and professionalism. Well, I don't see pilots out-of-uniform.....writing propaganda on vests....and acting like goofs around each other, management or mechanics. The pilots, as an organization, will NOT tolerate that type of behavior from it's members.....whether it's written somewhere in their bylaws or not......It's called COMMON SENSE and RESPECT of the profession!!!! something the TWU leadership fails to understand.
I said in an earlier post....I will hold AMP to those standards.....If you preach your willingness to follow the pilot group, as an organization, you better act like them too!! I'm not saying that pilots are perfect, but they definitely act more like adults than children.

I'm being cautious supporting AMP because it's a new organization and doesn't have a proven track record, but if you give me a choice between the TWU and AMP, there is no question by far that AMP provides change from the status quo. I can only judge AMP by what's on paper, and that's it's Constitution. If in fact it mirrors the pilots Constitution, I want AMP.
If I look back over 20+ years...the pilots changed their INTL leadership many times. They just changed their INTL president within the last year. We don't have that opprotunity with the TWU. That alone suggests that AMP will be a more democratic union, and will allow the membership to participate more in national elections than we do now!!!!

I will never change your opinion about AMP because it's very hard to provide YOU proven facts about AMP to compare against the TWU, but common sense tells ME that the status quo is currently UNACCEPTABLE and requires CHANGE. If WE had the ability to change the TWU INTL, WE wouldn't be talking about AMP, AMFA or any other union. WE DON"T!!!!!!

 

[Duke787]

Duke, I know who you are, and I assumed you were more intelligent than you appear. It's quite obvious that you want specific facts that say "if your lazy or unprofessional, you will be fined or terminated". I wish labor organizations had such language, but they don't. #6, 7 & 8 above would suffice for me when our guys turn other members into HR. How many cases have we had where guys run to HR for pettiness name calling or "your harrassing me!". #7 would cover Laziness and being Unprofessional because those traits are NOT in the best interests of the organization or membership.
The job of union leaders is to educate and provide consultation to it's people regarding the EXPECTIONS and STANDARDS of the organization. I've never witnessed the local leadership pulling someone aside and educating the individuals on what's expected of them. Have you??? Why not pull that individual that writes propaganda on his vest and tell him to remove or replace his vest?? That guy makes everyone look bad!! So, why doesn't Gilboy & Co. do it? Why don't you ask Gilboy next time he comes around? I know the answer because Steve and I have had this discussion, but you want facts, so you ask him.

So, you don't want AMP, but you want accountability and professionalism. Well, I don't see pilots out-of-uniform.....writing propaganda on vests....and acting like goofs around each other, management or mechanics. The pilots, as an organization, will NOT tolerate that type of behavior from it's members.....whether it's written somewhere in their bylaws or not......It's called COMMON SENSE and RESPECT of the profession!!!! something the TWU leadership fails to understand.
I said in an earlier post....I will hold AMP to those standards.....If you preach your willingness to follow the pilot group, as an organization, you better act like them too!! I'm not saying that pilots are perfect, but they definitely act more like adults than children.

I'm being cautious supporting AMP because it's a new organization and doesn't have a proven track record, but if you give me a choice between the TWU and AMP, there is no question by far that AMP provides change from the status quo. I can only judge AMP by what's on paper, and that's it's Constitution. If in fact it mirrors the pilots Constitution, I want AMP.
If I look back over 20+ years...the pilots changed their INTL leadership many times. They just changed their INTL president within the last year. We don't have that opprotunity with the TWU. That alone suggests that AMP will be a more democratic union, and will allow the membership to participate more in national elections than we do now!!!!

I will never change your opinion about AMP because it's very hard to provide YOU proven facts about AMP to compare against the TWU, but common sense tells ME that the status quo is currently UNACCEPTABLE and requires CHANGE. If WE had the ability to change the TWU INTL, WE wouldn't be talking about AMP, AMFA or any other union. WE DON"T!!!!!!

I'm not apposed to AMP, as a matter of fact I would like to see an election, AMP would obviously be more democratic then the TWU, but I'm not going to gloss over the fact that the TWU and AA are both in a tough positition, AA fiscally and the TWU dealing with 8 years of a concessionary contract and our discontent . But the less then professional mechs will not change because of a new union, and there is nothing in the AMP constitution to make mechs accountable to job performance. I never bad mouthed AMP, but I don't listen to rhetoric either.

 

[strikeforce]

I'm not apposed to AMP, as a matter of fact I would like to see an election, AMP would obviously be more democratic then the TWU, but I'm not going to gloss over the fact that the TWU and AA are both in a tough positition, AA fiscally and the TWU dealing with 8 years of a concessionary contract and our discontent . But the less then professional mechs will not change because of a new union, and there is nothing in the AMP constitution to make mechs accountable to job performance. I never bad mouthed AMP, but I don't listen to rhetoric either.

Yes, AA is fiscally Mis-Managed, and the TWU has placed US in this DISCONTENT position, and it will continue as long as they accept concessionary proposals from AA.

Why don't you ask your manager "why doesn't he/she keep mech's accountable"?

If you don't listen to rhetoric, why are you on this forum???? Why do you keep responding to my RHETORIC????? It's called a discussion, Brian!

I'm not here to sway your decision. I assumed that after 9 years of brutal concessions and DISCONTENT, because that's what I assume you have, that you're willing to listen to some common sense ideas for change. I guessed wrong. Bye!!!!

 

[Duke787]

Yes, AA is fiscally Mis-Managed, and the TWU has placed US in this DISCONTENT position, and it will continue as long as they accept concessionary proposals from AA.

If you don't listen to rhetoric, why are you on this forum???? Why do you keep responding to my RHETORIC?????

You are correct......time to go home, and thank you for your passion......duke787 signing off......try John

 

[Duke787]

[

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Jim gave it away? How? He didn't even vote on the TA. Even if all the conspiracy theories about ballot issues are true, the vote was close. A LOT of members felt that concessions were the way to go.

Class IIs have never had tons of OT. Check out the OT in DFW! My buddies there tell me they OT is there for the taking!

Here's the deal, are you looking for a place to rant without being challenged?

Don/Bob/Kevin,

Jim gave away our contract with the concessions with no snap-backs. That's a fact. The pilot's and F/A's Int. presidents also voted for the concessions and guess what? (I know you know this but are afraid of admitting it.) Those unions had ELECTIONS for their int. officers and their respective presidents were voted out of office. When do we get to vote for our Int. Officers?

Conspiracy theory on the t/a? Are you so ignorant and blind that the colored flyer inserted in our ballot envelopes BY THE INTERNATIONAL advocated a YES vote?


SAN does not have OT for the taking. It comes with the nature of the size of our station. So since we can't work all the OT to make up for waht was stolen what should we do? "Lower our expectations" like the APPOINTED guy in NY that makes $182,000.00 a year?

Not ranting here. Just challenging your version of reality. By the way, love the alias. Still no one from the twu who supports the twu has the stones to stand tall before everyone. Typical.

 

[Observer]

Don/Bob/Kevin,

Jim gave away our contract with the concessions with no snap-backs. That's a fact. The pilot's and F/A's Int. presidents also voted for the concessions and guess what? (I know you know this but are afraid of admitting it.) Those unions had ELECTIONS for their int. officers and their respective presidents were voted out of office. When do we get to vote for our Int. Officers?

Conspiracy theory on the t/a? Are you so ignorant and blind that the colored flyer inserted in our ballot envelopes BY THE INTERNATIONAL advocated a YES vote?


SAN does not have OT for the taking. It comes with the nature of the size of our station. So since we can't work all the OT to make up for waht was stolen what should we do? "Lower our expectations" like the APPOINTED guy in NY that makes $182,000.00 a year?

Not ranting here. Just challenging your version of reality. By the way, love the alias. Still no one from the twu who supports the twu has the stones to stand tall before everyone. Typical.