Democracy In Action

[strikeforce]

Luis a definite yes, Gilboy didn't take a position, and both JR and Pike would b#@ch slap you for calling them yes voters on the last TA!

maybe you should go back to school to read and understand what "correct me if I'm wrong" means.

I get the feeling from your expertise on all these matters, and your knowledge of how certain presidents voted, that you are in the negotiating room under some INTL authority????

Overspeed.....you tool!

 

[727 200]

JR and Larry were against the TA.

Bob
I meant no disrespect to your texts on this site they are always informative and intelegent. Kens as well at times with his support of our craft and its herritage ....these are positives.
But as you can see your reasonable response to my post has drawn you into a running "e conversation" with a nameless nincompoop.

KS

 

[strikeforce]

You're still buying into the BS from years ago - "Sign this here confidentiality agreement and you can see our books so you'll know we can file for bankruptcy" - all one needs to read is the US Code.

The way the US Code read in 2003 and the way it still reads today (with a few exceptions), while not saying it outright, allows even a healthy company to file for Chapter 11 protection, not that they'd want to. When that crap came out from both the company and union alike, it was obvious everything that followed would be a lie yet many believed and still believe it - sounds like you're one that still believes in qualifications to file.

One can rest assured AMR's legal team has been pouring over the US Code looking for ways to complete the job of hosing the employees while rewarding the infestation of Centrepork for doing so.

Credit worthiness of a business after filing for Chapter 11 and an individual after filing for Chapter 13 (both are reorganization measures) are two entirely different animals and can't be compared.

Frank,

Contrary to your belief, I DIDN'T believe it in 2003 and I still don't today. I don't trust management or the INTL. It's all part of the psychological game of chicken that AA and the INTL use to achieve their intended results.

These results were established before negotiations started in 2008, and were thrown for a loop when WE rejected the T/A.

I'm not new to this ballgame....although it's been years since my involvement. Contrary to all the naysayers and AA/TWU lovers belief.....AA will not file for BK!!! Management loves control, and they love to micro-manage....something that THEY will lose in BK.

As long as WE vote NO for concessionary deals, the INTL and company will have to turn the page in their playbook and come up with other plays, whether AA loses 286M, Divests Eagle or announces historical aircraft purchases.

Right now, WE control our destiny. Only a BK judge or Judge Jim Little can change that with a stroke of a pen. There will be hell to pay if it's the latter.

 

[Frank Szabo]

maybe you should go back to school to read and understand what "correct me if I'm wrong" means.

I get the feeling from your expertise on all these matters, and your knowledge of how certain presidents voted, that you are in the negotiating room under some INTL authority????

Overspeed.....you tool!

... ain't he now? Registers on this site just in time to try and influence an election. What a sorry dog.

The International hasn't any scruples and would rather have this manner of slime, whoever it is, try to convince others their way is the best so as to continue their destruction of the trades for their own purposes.

The "Industrial" vs: Trade or Craft union argument isn't the real issue nor has it ever been, rather, the issue is the heads of the unions (all of them) attempting to mantain their stauts quo in any manner necessary, to the point of screwing their membership as we of the TWU have seen from a front row seat. They are in deep trouble and they are painfully aware of it, as resorting to this manner of tactics shows.

Let the fun begin!

 

[Overspeed]

I believe your figures are wrong. Maybe they have a lot less mechanics but they dont have half the employees that AA does.

Who says they have to go? Why has AA been bringing work in house for the last eight years, increased insourcing and reducing outsourcing? Because it costs more? Didnt you just cite how brilliant they are? The fact is that prior to other carriers filing BK AA had the most pro-company outsourcing rules of the legacy carriers. I recall preparing to ship our engines overseas for repair under our current language. Yep, we were sending OH work overseas way before SWA.

AA keeps it in house because they've figured its more cost effective to do so, granted thats at current wage levels. Poor moral has existed since 2003 and hurt productivity yet the company still proceeded to bring more work in house. what we dont know is where they consider the threshold to be before its no longer cheaper, apparently Arpey either doesnt know or refuses to disclose it.

Not "my" figures Bob...MIT who got them from the BTS and DOT. AA was 20 to 1 and everyone else is 12 to 1 or less. Bob you are right, they have slight more than half. DL who does a lot more outsourcing than AA is 12 mechanics (and they have unlicensed mechanic helpers in ATL) to every aircraft. Do we do over $750M in third party work? No. We lost a lot of airframe customers. You should know, when is the last time North American rolled in?

Yes they are brilliant. You are still working under the 2003 agreement. They win we all lose. Great job Bob.

Hey is morale with an "e" not moral. AA keeps it in house because they believed they had more control over quality and performance which should have allowed them to avoid higher operating costs like reduced OTS and better on time performance. Unfortunately CO, DL, US, and UA all perform better as a maintenance group than us. Can't get planes out of TUL or AFW, OTS is at an all time high. Not seeing the cost avoidance/savings or value organized labor is supposed to provide.

 

[Bob Owens]

Frank,

Contrary to your belief, I DIDN'T believe it in 2003 and I still don't today. I don't trust management or the INTL. It's all part of the psychological game of chicken that AA and the INTL use to achieve their intended results.

These results were established before negotiations started in 2008, and were thrown for a loop when WE rejected the T/A.

I'm not new to this ballgame....although it's been years since my involvement. Contrary to all the naysayers and AA/TWU lovers belief.....AA will not file for BK!!! Management loves control, and they love to micro-manage....something that THEY will lose in BK.

As long as WE vote NO for concessionary deals, the INTL and company will have to turn the page in their playbook and come up with other plays, whether AA loses 286M, Divests Eagle or announces historical aircraft purchases.

Right now, WE control our destiny. Only a BK judge or Judge Jim Little can change that with a stroke of a pen. There will be hell to pay if it's the latter.

I cant tell you how many times I heard the word Bankruptcy out of Don V and Todd W over the last two and a half years. At least once every time we got together. Fuel goes up a penny "Look out here comes BK". AA announces a loss "Look out here comes BK". Somebody sneezes in Kansas "look out here comes BK". Then it was the Billion Dollar Pension payment coming due, that turned out to be $500 million and the only reason why it was that much is because the company didnt put any in the year prior. Then its "We would be in a better position in front of a BK Judge iif we had an agreement in place". It was non-stop. And that was only since 2009, I'll bet they've been chanting that since 2003, except at election time that is. Now it will be " Well now that they bought 460 airplanes they are going to file BK, well their revenues have only increased this year by $6 billion compared to 2003, here comes BK. We've only pulled in $900 million more already this year than last year, Look out here comes BK. To me it was like they were saying ; BE AFRAID BE AFRAID BE AFRAID!!! GIVE THE COMPANY WHAT THEY WANT. DONT ASK FOR NOTHING AND YOU WONT BE DISSAPOINTED! BE HAPPY YOU HAVE A JOB AND YOU ARENT ONE OF THE 20 MILLION THATS UNEMPLOYED!

 

[Bob Owens]

DL who does a lot more outsourcing than AA is 12 mechanics (and they have unlicensed mechanic helpers in ATL) to every aircraft.

So what you're saying is that Delta, a non-union company finally got the same concession that we gave AA in 1995?

Do we do over $750M in third party work? No. We lost a lot of airframe customers. You should know, when is the last time North American rolled in?

Dont care the guys are getting more OT than ever before. It isnt coming because we cant do it.

Yes they are brilliant. You are still working under the 2003 agreement. They win we all lose. Great job Bob.

Well its better than the 2010 TA.

Hey is morale with an "e" not moral.

Did you mean "Hey it's morale with an "e" not moral" ? Or were you asking a question and forgot the question mark?

AA keeps it in house because they believed they had more control over quality and performance which should have allowed them to avoid higher operating costs like reduced OTS and better on time performance. Unfortunately CO, DL, US, and UA all perform better as a maintenance group than us. Can't get planes out of TUL or AFW, OTS is at an all time high. Not seeing the cost avoidance/savings or value organized labor is supposed to provide.

Well thats what you get when you are near the bottom in hourly pay, Have the least amount of Vacation, least amount of IOD, least amount of Holidays, jack up what you charge for medical by over 500% after cutting compensation by 25% and year after year give bonuses to your executives for losing money. Like I've said, dont hire anybody, just pay us more and let attrition lower costs. This way the workload gradually increases but the guys take it on in order to keep wages high. Might impact the dues, may have to consolidate Locals, but I dont buy into the concept that I should work for half pay so they can hire twice as many workers.

You really sound more like management than union, which are you?

 

[Bob Owens]

Duplicate

 

[Overspeed]

To me it was like they were saying ; BE AFRAID BE AFRAID BE AFRAID!!! GIVE THE COMPANY WHAT THEY WANT. DONT ASK FOR NOTHING AND YOU WONT BE DISSAPOINTED! BE HAPPY YOU HAVE A JOB AND YOU ARENT ONE OF THE 20 MILLION THATS UNEMPLOYED!

This is where you are most wrong. The TA did not give up everything to the Company. The TA was going to give us a raise up to just behind SWA as well as other "take backs" and maintain one of the last two defined benefit pension plans. So you have in your tag line "number two won't do," but now you say you never promised us top pay like SWA and UPS. Which is it? Are we going to get less than SWA or UPS?

So it sounds like if we believe you we are not to trust the Int'l and if we pay attention to what you are saying, you are guilty of the same thing you accuse the Int'l of.

So we are supposed to roll the dice with your plan of release and strike? What are the downsides of that strategy? Lose my job, get replaced, or get offered my job at reduced rates. What are the upsides? We win and get everything we wanted. Hmmmm...which one is fantasy?

Truth be told, shouldn't we try chipping away and plan to restore to 2003 within X years? Do you really believe we will get all our concessions back now?

 

[Bob Owens]

This is where you are most wrong. The TA did not give up everything to the Company. The TA was going to give us a raise up to just behind SWA as well as other "take backs" and maintain one of the last two defined benefit pension plans. So you have in your tag line "number two won't do," but now you say you never promised us top pay like SWA and UPS. Which is it? Are we going to get less than SWA or UPS?

Didnt you just recently say that our raise was a trade off for the $57 million they were going to pocket from the Prefunding? If you take five dollars from your left pocket and put it in your right pocket you still only have five dollars.

I think its pretty obvious if you look at our table position what we are asking for and where it would put us.

So it sounds like if we believe you we are not to trust the Int'l and if we pay attention to what you are saying, you are guilty of the same thing you accuse the Int'l of.

Well have you ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? For eight years a series of International officers have been running around saying the company is going to file, "Not if but when". Do you feel that when they do this that it favors what the company wants or what the members need? I dont have a problem with aiming high and coming a little under, I do have a problem when we are told to aim low and come in even lower.

So we are supposed to roll the dice with your plan of release and strike?

Yes thats what you do when you are union in order to make gains. If thats too much for you go into management or work for a non-union company, hey you may end up at delta, JEt Blue or Fed Ex and make more than you are now!

What are the downsides of that strategy? Lose my job, get replaced, or get offered my job at reduced rates. What are the upsides? We win and get everything we wanted. Hmmmm...which one is fantasy?

You seem to think its all or nothing and have zero clue as to the history of collective bargaining. Thats understandable because you are probably only familiar with collective begging.

Truth be told,

A novel idea from you!

shouldn't we try chipping away and plan to restore to 2003 within X years? Do you really believe we will get all our concessions back now?

No, I'd rather shoot for 2001. Did you really mean to say 2003? Slow down Overspeed, you are losing control!

 

[strikeforce]

I cant tell you how many times I heard the word Bankruptcy out of Don V and Todd W over the last two and a half years. At least once every time we got together. Fuel goes up a penny "Look out here comes BK". AA announces a loss "Look out here comes BK". Somebody sneezes in Kansas "look out here comes BK". Then it was the Billion Dollar Pension payment coming due, that turned out to be $500 million and the only reason why it was that much is because the company didnt put any in the year prior. Then its "We would be in a better position in front of a BK Judge iif we had an agreement in place". It was non-stop. And that was only since 2009, I'll bet they've been chanting that since 2003, except at election time that is. Now it will be " Well now that they bought 460 airplanes they are going to file BK, well their revenues have only increased this year by $6 billion compared to 2003, here comes BK. We've only pulled in $900 million more already this year than last year, Look out here comes BK. To me it was like they were saying ; BE AFRAID BE AFRAID BE AFRAID!!! GIVE THE COMPANY WHAT THEY WANT. DONT ASK FOR NOTHING AND YOU WONT BE DISSAPOINTED! BE HAPPY YOU HAVE A JOB AND YOU ARENT ONE OF THE 20 MILLION THATS UNEMPLOYED!

There you go.....AA doesn't have to sell it, they've got their whipping boys to do it for them!

Boy oh boy, how things change when Don V and Todd W latch onto the INTL nipple. I guess I was right when I said, "the union sold us the bag of sh&t for the company in 2003". I assume AA paid dearly for the TWU's service....maybe lifetime positive space travel to exotic places for Don, Jim, Sonny Hall, Gless and other INTL stooges, or maybe a share of the concessionary dough we gave up......or maybe both????? I'll put my money on both....although I can't prove it, but it doesn't take Columbo to figure it out.

Was Don V working for Reding when he came to ORD to sell the management bonuses, as well????? Maybe he's getting a share of that too??

INTL scumbags!!!!

 

[Overspeed]

Didnt you just recently say that our raise was a trade off for the $57 million they were going to pocket from the Prefunding? If you take five dollars from your left pocket and put it in your right pocket you still only have five dollars.

I think its pretty obvious if you look at our table position what we are asking for and where it would put us.



Well have you ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf? For eight years a series of International officers have been running around saying the company is going to file, "Not if but when". Do you feel that when they do this that it favors what the company wants or what the members need? I dont have a problem with aiming high and coming a little under, I do have a problem when we are told to aim low and come in even lower.




Yes thats what you do when you are union in order to make gains. If thats too much for you go into management or work for a non-union company, hey you may end up at delta, JEt Blue or Fed Ex and make more than you are now!



You seem to think its all or nothing and have zero clue as to the history of collective bargaining. Thats understandable because you are probably only familiar with collective begging.



A novel idea from you!



No, I'd rather shoot for 2001. Did you really mean to say 2003? Slow down Overspeed, you are losing control!

Yes I meant 2001. I need to BITE check my EECs.

I didn't say we swapped the $57M I put out there did they swap it for something else.

Strike? Let's do it. Looked around the break rooms lately? Do you think we can rely on the deal cutters, OT hounds, CS scroungers, and other IGM'ers to walk out? Really? I fully understand collective bargaining and if you don't have the backing or the preparation, you are screwed. The history of union strikes in airlines is littered with scabs in the past twenty or thirty years. CAL, Eastern, NW, etc... that's what I am afraid of.

You're right I may end up at FedEx or Jetblue. At least I have had to hump the last twenty five years for a living and can [produce the work. The people we hired here after 1995 had the money and gravy shifts handed to them. Do you think they are ready to walk out? No way, because most of them couldn't cut it at JetBlue and FedEx. No internet cafes, bunk houses, DVD burning, terminal strolling, weight rooms, trips to Home Depot, taking advantage of liberal CS policies to work their second job, etc... Yeah. This is a hardened set of union brothers.

Losing control? Unions need to educate their members before they go off on grandiose, half cocked strike. I'm in control.

Like it or not, BK is an option but I feel that they won't do it unless pushed in to it through a strike. Plus, Obama is not going to let a nasty and messy strike go on prior to an election. No way. NMB will put us on ice before that happens.

Table position is just a want. Do you think we will get it? Really???? You are optimistic.

 

[comatose]

This is where you are most wrong. The TA did not give up everything to the Company. The TA was going to give us a raise up to just behind SWA as well as other "take backs" and maintain one of the last two defined benefit pension plans. So you have in your tag line "number two won't do," but now you say you never promised us top pay like SWA and UPS. Which is it? Are we going to get less than SWA or UPS?

So it sounds like if we believe you we are not to trust the Int'l and if we pay attention to what you are saying, you are guilty of the same thing you accuse the Int'l of.

So we are supposed to roll the dice with your plan of release and strike? What are the downsides of that strategy? Lose my job, get replaced, or get offered my job at reduced rates. What are the upsides? We win and get everything we wanted. Hmmmm...which one is fantasy?

Truth be told, shouldn't we try chipping away and plan to restore to 2003 within X years? Do you really believe we will get all our concessions back now?

If you're trying to sell the last TA, I see a real screwing coming.

Behind SWA...by how much?

Wasn't it the 95 presidents conference and negotiations willfully compared us to SWA?

Hey, thats just pay. There are at least 3 other concessions in the last TA which instantly draw my NO vote.

 

[odie01]

The people we hired here after 1995 had the money and gravy shifts handed to them. Do you think they are ready to walk out? No way, because most of them couldn't cut it at JetBlue and FedEx. No internet cafes, bunk houses, DVD burning, terminal strolling, weight rooms, trips to Home Depot, taking advantage of liberal CS policies to work their second job, etc... Yeah. This is a hardened set of union brothers.

Losing control? Unions need to educate their members before they go off on grandiose, half cocked strike.

Does that make them bad mechanics, or is it lack of leadership by the company and union? Most of the slugs I know have a ton of experience and were good wrenches before they were duped by the company/twu in 2003 and again the past TA. We do not trust our twu leadership, and we do not trust the company, they both have FK'd us over, time and time again. Unfortunatly the twu is set up to be redundant to outside threats, and is very difficult to replace with all of the different title groups and job classifications. Not to mention brainwashed dickweeds like yourself.

 

[Overspeed]

Does that make them bad mechanics, or is it lack of leadership by the company and union? Most of the slugs I know have a ton of experience and were good wrenches before they were duped by the company/twu in 2003 and again the past TA. We do not trust our twu leadership, and we do not trust the company, they both have FK'd us over, time and time again. Unfortunatly the twu is set up to be redundant to outside threats, and is very difficult to replace with all of the different title groups and job classifications. Not to mention brainwashed dickweeds like yourself.

So the solution is what?

Replace the union, so you can complain about another union and its leadership? Why? You are so good at bashing this one.

Not trying to sell the last TA. Just noting that in order to be whole the committee needs to get me all that was on the table plus all the way back to 2001. I am really looking forward to that retro check of $50K plus for each of us. I can't wait!

All you complainers have 20/20 hindsight. You knew all the answers back they didn't you? Full pay to the last day wasn't it? I never said trust the Company or the Union. You should ask questions, you should inform the members of wrong doing, the problem is, I don't think enough people are as radical as you think in reality. They will only go so far.

You guys trumpet about CO and how good they are to their employees. After twenty years of shafting they finally get decent raises and then they become the darlings of labor. Really? So by my calculations if we are to be just like CO employees we have ten more years of beatings before the big raise. Nobody duped you. If you hired on you signed up for the roller coaster airline industry. Welcome to reality.

Name calling...that always gets the point across.