Democracy In Action

[GoodTimeBob]

Questions

If KS is such an International lackey why would he have resisted efforts from them and vote no in 08 for that preposed TA?
If KS is such an International lackey why am I working gate calls out of A section at DFW in 110 degree weather? ..... Im good with this arrangement, I just need "lackey" info from this esteemed site
Why would the members of local 565 buy advice, support, etc, from the current local e board on who to elect as their new president?
A) Due to the fine outstanding job their current President has done ... ie their track record in choosing Presidents?
B) Their due for a good pick this time?
C) His last name dosn't begin in Z?

KM, GP, BO, Why do you so often dignify this site ?
For the positive up lifting advice and outlook it gives on our profession?

Keith Stewart

 

[Birdman]

Questions
I just need "lackey" info from this esteemed site.

KM, GP, BO, Why do you so often dignify this site ?
For the positive up lifting advice and outlook it gives on our profession?

Keith Stewart

Kieth, are you saying "this site" should be avoided? Is there any site you would recommend, or should the membership just refrain from using technology that enables them to express their thoughts and debate issues openly?

 

[GoodTimeBob]

Keith, did Don give you permission to trash the current president? The utterances from which spew from your lips is truly nauseating to most of the membership. I would also like to hear from someone from the stores side of the field as to who they believe to be the best candidate for the job. You were the president were you not before? I just wonder why they aren't jumping up and down with the excitement for which you cast at the moment.

 

[727 200]

Keith, did Don give you permission to trash the current president? The utterances from which spew from your lips is truly nauseating to most of the membership. I would also like to hear from someone from the stores side of the field as to who they believe to be the best candidate for the job. You were the president were you not before? I just wonder why they aren't jumping up and down with the excitement for which you cast at the moment.

Bob ..... Or anybody
Ans. my questions?
Please.

KS

 

[Bob Owens]

Again Bob, you blame everyone but yourself. If you go in to fight against a group that is better organized than you, has better resources, and more backing outside your inner circle they are out to get you. Maybe you need to manage expectations within reality.

Here we are one year later since the failed TA so how is your "plan" going? Did the Company come back with that "back pocket" TA that had all that retro pay and raises you promised? No. Did the mediator buckle under your barrage of facts and legal maneuvering/ No. Are we anywhere closer to TA that gets us full retro and UPS/SWA wages? No. Did Jim Weel cave in to your demands? No. Do you have a plan B? No.

Face it. You and your no vote platform got us nothing and most likely never will. (Cool You Tube videos though, love the sound effects) You had your time on the soap box, it's over. Arpey and his team had there way again. They actually got a paycut because of your leadership.

Blame the Int'l and let the conspiracy theories run rampant. Doesn't change the fact that you failed to deliver on your promises.

I'd like to see where I promised anything. I stated that the TA was concessionary and unacceptable and that we needed to reject it. Making false claims from behind an alias doesnt lend you much credibility but in your case it may lend you more credibility than if you used your real name.

I've been pretty consistant in saying that if we are to get what what need we have to go the whole way, that means self help. The only way to get there is to be released, the only one who has the authority to ask for that is the International. I've been pushing for that since April.

The fact is that we all still have our retire medical, why are you so anxious to put another $57 million in the company's pockets? Did you feel the $76 million they pocketed from the Supplimental wasn't enough? Funny how that just faded away and the International never challenged it. We still dont have ASMs, we still have Title Ii in class III cities and Title i and V in class II cities, new hires still get the pension and still dont have scores of other concessions that were in that TA, you either forget that or those concessions dont affect you so you dont care.

Yesterday the company announced that they are financially fit enough to buy 460 new airplanes, they claim its the largest order in history. Does that sound like a company thats about to go out of business? Management can spin it as they like by making claims the leases will pay for themselves. thats a sales pitch, not a fact. Frank Borman made the same sales pitch 30 years ago when he renewed the fleet at EAL. This order pales in comparasion. But no matter how management tries to spin it the financing had to come from somewhere, and who ever agreed to it saw AA's numbers and figured that AA would have the ability to pay. If they have the ability to pay for 460 new airplanes then they have the ability to pay us.

As far as "going against a group that is better organized than you, has better resources, and more backing outside your inner circle " , well did the TA pass or fail?

 

[strikeforce]

Yesterday the company announced that they are financially fit enough to buy 460 new airplanes, they claim its the largest order in history. Does that sound like a company thats about to go out of business? Management can spin it as they like by making claims the leases will pay for themselves. thats a sales pitch, not a fact. Frank Borman made the same sales pitch 30 years ago when he renewed the fleet at EAL. This order pales in comparasion. But no matter how management tries to spin it the financing had to come from somewhere, and who ever agreed to it saw AA's numbers and figured that AA would have the ability to pay. If they have the ability to pay for 460 new airplanes then they have the ability to pay us.

Exactly!!

I don't care how management, and the AA management lovers on this board spin it.....AA isn't ACTING like a company on the brink!!

Would a person ready to file BK, go out and buy a corvette?????? That's exactly what AA did!

Bottom line.......Arpey & Co. are full of SH%T and a bunch of LIARS!!!!!


Therefore, WE shouldn't settle for anything LESS than our current table position. Matter of fact, since the company appears to have found boat loads of money for aircraft....I would substantially increase our table position by hundreds of millions and seek retro back to 2003!!! Again, that's my take on this!

NO RETRO = NO DEAL!!! That's for sure!

 

[strikeforce]

just goes to show you how dumb management is about announcing a massive aircraft order in the middle of negotiations.....if anything, I hope this announcement EMBOLDENS our stance against the INTL and AA, and brings solidarity amongst the membership. In the near term, I don't think there's a chance in hell that members will settle for more concessions. Thank you AA!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Questions

KM, GP, BO, Why do you so often dignify this site ?
For the positive up lifting advice and outlook it gives on our profession?

Keith Stewart

Because its a site that many members frequent and its a vehicle for disseminating information. We have our own forum but most people just come here.

For the record I'm not plugging or trashing anyone in your election and I think I already explained why. I didnt like it when guys from Tulsa, ORD , DTW and AFW came to our Local the week ballotts went out and tried to sway the vote here, so I'm staying out of this with the exception of saying that there needs to be more focus on issues than personalities. This is an election not a canonization, I just hope who ever gets elected doesnt succumb to the pressure to settle for the unacceptable. Needlesss to say you were proven right about your successor.

Over the years I have come across all the candidates either in person or through E-mails and I have no beef with any of you guys and will try to get who ever wins to side with those of us who feel we should not just settle for whatever the company throws on the table. I've known John Talty since he was a mechanic at LGA in the 80s, I met Gary Peterson when we both attended the month long Avionics school in ORD back in 95, I've spoken to and exchanged several E mails with you, and I've exchanged E-mails with Kenya. None of you came across as Company Men to me and like I said, I hope that whoever gets in is as determined as we are to get a good deal.

 

[odie01]

Because its a site that many members frequent and its a vehicle for disseminating information. We have our own forum but most people just come here.

For the record I'm not plugging or trashing anyone in your election and I think I already explained why. I didnt like it when guys from Tulsa, ORD , DTW and AFW came to our Local the week ballotts went out and tried to sway the vote here, so I'm staying out of this with the exception of saying that there needs to be more focus on issues than personalities. This is an election not a canonization, I just hope who ever gets elected doesnt succumb to the pressure to settle for the unacceptable. Needlesss to say you were proven right about your successor.

Over the years I have come across all the candidates either in person or through E-mails and I have no beef with any of you guys and will try to get who ever wins to side with those of us who feel we should not just settle for whatever the company throws on the table. I've known John Talty since he was a mechanic at LGA in the 80s, I met Gary Peterson when we both attended the month long Avionics school in ORD back in 95, I've spoken to and exchanged several E mails with you, and I've exchanged E-mails with Kenya. None of you came across as Company Men to me and like I said, I hope that whoever gets in is as determined as we are to get a good deal.

To bad some of the other presidents don't share your viewpoint on staying out other
locals elections. I just read a letter signed by Larry and his E-board endorsing Keith Stewart for president of local 565. Why are we in other locals business, and what's wrong with the other candidates?

 

[Bob Owens]

just goes to show you how dumb management is about announcing a massive aircraft order in the middle of negotiations.....if anything, I hope this announcement EMBOLDENS our stance against the INTL and AA, and brings solidarity amongst the membership. In the near term, I don't think there's a chance in hell that members will settle for more concessions. Thank you AA!!!

Just a hypothesis but maybe they didnt have a choice.

I think that the company had a plan, but we screwed it up by rejecting the TA.

I think they thought for sure that the TA would pass, I think they were given assurances that it would and that once ours passed Fleet would immediately follow, then the FAs. They would then strike a deal with the pilots that would be better than the rest with language to get smaller planes where they could divest Eagle and all the money losing RJs and fly the 777-300ER.

They are running out of time, they have to have a pilots deal in place before they get those 777s because they cant use them if they dont.

 

[strikeforce]

Because its a site that many members frequent and its a vehicle for disseminating information.

For the record I'm not plugging or trashing anyone in your election and I think I already explained why. I didnt like it when guys from Tulsa, ORD , DTW and AFW came to our Local the week ballotts went out and tried to sway the vote here, so I'm staying out of this with the exception of saying that there needs to be more focus on issues than personalities. This is an election not a canonization, I just hope who ever gets elected doesnt succumb to the pressure to settle for the unacceptable. Needlesss to say you were proven right about your successor.

Over the years I have come across all the candidates either in person or through E-mails and I have no beef with any of you guys and will try to get who ever wins to side with those of us who feel we should not just settle for whatever the company throws on the table. I've known John Talty since he was a mechanic at LGA in the 80s, I met Gary Peterson when we both attended the month long Avionics school in ORD back in 95, I've spoken to and exchanged several E mails with you, and I've exchanged E-mails with Kenya. None of you came across as Company Men to me and like I said, I hope that whoever gets in is as determined as we are to get a good deal.

I'm pretty sure that Gilboy's out in ORD!

It would be a calamity if the membership re-elects Gilboy and Shaffer. Joe Inman is very hard to displace because he has a CPA and overall the membership likes the way he's handled the local's finances. The others are fair game. Personally, I would like to see several new candidates on the board, and candidates that offer "fresh ideas", and will "work" on BEHALF of the membership. I have several in mind, but will not name them on this forum without their approval.

 

[Overspeed]

To bad some of the other presidents don't share your viewpoint on staying out other
locals elections. I just read a letter signed by Larry and his E-board endorsing Keith Stewart for president of local 565. Why are we in other locals business, and what's wrong with the other candidates?

Local 564 President JR Ruiz endorses Keith Stewart as well. Bob seems to be playing all sides... kind of like the people he attacks on the Int'l. Hmmmmm...

 

[strikeforce]

Just a hypothesis but maybe they didnt have a choice.

I think that the company had a plan, but we screwed it up by rejecting the TA.

I think they thought for sure that the TA would pass, I think they were given assurances that it would and that once ours passed Fleet would immediately follow, then the FAs. They would then strike a deal with the pilots that would be better than the rest with language to get smaller planes where they could divest Eagle and all the money losing RJs and fly the 777-300ER.

They are running out of time, they have to have a pilots deal in place before they get those 777s because they cant use them if they dont.

I'm in agreement, Bob.

WE definitely screwed up the company and INTL.

AA's announcement definitely provided US more leverage at the table, and they can't cry poor in front of the NMB.

 

[Overspeed]

I'd like to see where I promised anything. I stated that the TA was concessionary and unacceptable and that we needed to reject it. Making false claims from behind an alias doesnt lend you much credibility but in your case it may lend you more credibility than if you used your real name.

I've been pretty consistant in saying that if we are to get what what need we have to go the whole way, that means self help. The only way to get there is to be released, the only one who has the authority to ask for that is the International. I've been pushing for that since April.

The fact is that we all still have our retire medical, why are you so anxious to put another $57 million in the company's pockets? Did you feel the $76 million they pocketed from the Supplimental wasn't enough? Funny how that just faded away and the International never challenged it. We still dont have ASMs, we still have Title Ii in class III cities and Title i and V in class II cities, new hires still get the pension and still dont have scores of other concessions that were in that TA, you either forget that or those concessions dont affect you so you dont care.

Yesterday the company announced that they are financially fit enough to buy 460 new airplanes, they claim its the largest order in history. Does that sound like a company thats about to go out of business? Management can spin it as they like by making claims the leases will pay for themselves. thats a sales pitch, not a fact. Frank Borman made the same sales pitch 30 years ago when he renewed the fleet at EAL. This order pales in comparasion. But no matter how management tries to spin it the financing had to come from somewhere, and who ever agreed to it saw AA's numbers and figured that AA would have the ability to pay. If they have the ability to pay for 460 new airplanes then they have the ability to pay us.

As far as "going against a group that is better organized than you, has better resources, and more backing outside your inner circle " , well did the TA pass or fail?

Really? Your entire strategy is to get release and lead us all in to a strike or some other type of job action. AA will cave under such mighty pressure? Wow, great strategy, you are a tactician on par with the likes of Rommel, Patton, or Schwarzkopf! Uh, no. What's Plan B or are we doing that? Whine about release until something happens all the while AA gets more de facto pay cuts?

Was the trade off on the $57M in retiree medical funds how we got the higher line premium? Isn't paying for your retiree medical industry standard?

Yes they bought new airplanes. Kind of humbling huh Bob? They were able to engineer a huge aircraft purchase and not wait for the labor groups. I wonder how that could have happened. Could it be AA has a distinct advantage over other airlines in that they have not gone BK? Those planes can be repossessed or leases renegotiated in BK. Labor agreements, well...we all know what happens with those in front of the benevolent BK judge. Just ask UA, NW, DL, US, and CO. Speaking of CO, ask any ex-Con if they got their pay frozen in 1990, BK in late 1990, and laid off in 1994 in aircraft maintenance. Then ask them what CO did right after that. That's right they bought all brand new Boeing planes! Tons of them and looks like they paid for them with all that money they saved on overhaul since that's what they shut down in 1994.

Yep. AA is way better organized then you. They saw the TA rejection as a possibility and like a true tactician, they had a better plan than the JFK Casear Owens the Great. Now they have a slew of new planes (collateralized debt) and the ability to restructure labor agreements in BK court.

Thanks Brainiac!

 

[FWAAA]

Yesterday the company announced that they are financially fit enough to buy 460 new airplanes, they claim its the largest order in history. Does that sound like a company thats about to go out of business? Management can spin it as they like by making claims the leases will pay for themselves. thats a sales pitch, not a fact. Frank Borman made the same sales pitch 30 years ago when he renewed the fleet at EAL. This order pales in comparasion. But no matter how management tries to spin it the financing had to come from somewhere, and who ever agreed to it saw AA's numbers and figured that AA would have the ability to pay. If they have the ability to pay for 460 new airplanes then they have the ability to pay us.

The new planes will practically pay for themselves in reduced fual consumption and (temporary) maintenance savings. Increasing rates of pay for employees carries no comparable payback.

This order is just the next piece of the puzzle toward an eventual CH 11 filing and yep, you guessed it, concession demands from management.