Democracy In Action

[strikeforce]

Local 564 President JR Ruiz endorses Keith Stewart as well. Bob seems to be playing all sides... kind of like the people he attacks on the Int'l. Hmmmmm...

If Pike and JR are endorsing Stewart.....Peterson's a shoe in for president. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Pike, Luis, JR and Gilboy all favor the rejected T/A??

Overspeed, maybe you are a toolboy and cabana boy for Little & Co.! Towel please!

 

[FWAAA]

Exactly!!

I don't care how management, and the AA management lovers on this board spin it.....AA isn't ACTING like a company on the brink!!

Would a person ready to file BK, go out and buy a corvette?????? That's exactly what AA did!

The weakness in your thinking is believing that there's any similarity between some double-wide okie with his new Corvette who can't pay his bills and a multi-billion dollar corporation that wants labor peace but doesn't want to spend more money and hasn't yet wrung out the excess in Ch 11.

Therefore, WE shouldn't settle for anything LESS than our current table position. Matter of fact, since the company appears to have found boat loads of money for aircraft....I would substantially increase our table position by hundreds of millions and seek retro back to 2003!!! Again, that's my take on this!

NO RETRO = NO DEAL!!! That's for sure!

With thinking like this, it's no surprise that you guys can't get the company to pay you what you're worth (or what you think you're worth).

 

[Rogallo]

Increasing rates of pay for employees carries no comparable payback.

Oh yes it does, We might just give a damn once again!!!

 

[Overspeed]

If Pike and JR are endorsing Stewart.....Peterson's a shoe in for president. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Pike, Luis, JR and Gilboy all favor the rejected T/A??

Overspeed, maybe you are a toolboy and cabana boy for Little & Co.! Towel please!

Luis a definite yes, Gilboy didn't take a position, and both JR and Pike would b#@ch slap you for calling them yes voters on the last TA!

 

[Frank Szabo]

Oh yes it does, We might just give a damn once again!!!

[sarcasm with a bit of truth]

FWAAA's comment is proof that the expense of a happy work crew that actually gives a damn about its company can't be quantified and therefore deducted from the corporate taxes - that's all that matters - didn't you know that?

Cretin.

[/sarcasm]

 

[strikeforce]

Yes they bought new airplanes. Kind of humbling huh Bob? They were able to engineer a huge aircraft purchase and not wait for the labor groups. I wonder how that could have happened. Could it be AA has a distinct advantage over other airlines in that they have not gone BK? Those planes can be repossessed or leases renegotiated in BK. Labor agreements, well...we all know what happens with those in front of the benevolent BK judge. Just ask UA, NW, DL, US, and CO. Speaking of CO, ask any ex-Con if they got their pay frozen in 1990, BK in late 1990, and laid off in 1994 in aircraft maintenance. Then ask them what CO did right after that. That's right they bought all brand new Boeing planes! Tons of them and looks like they paid for them with all that money they saved on overhaul since that's what they shut down in 1994.

Are you that ignorant to the financial debacle of 2008????

Banks aren't lending to the most credit worthy people, and companies in this country, yet AA, who YOU believe is on the brink of BK, gets billions in financing from lease companies and aircraft manufacturers.

Honestly, do you think companies like Boeing and Airbus will lend billions in financing to AA, only to have AA file BK and then spend millions more on BK lawyers hoping to get a better deal in BK????? Are you an idiot, or what???

In what era did the CO go BK, and then buy new aircraft?????? oh, 1990's. 2011, it's whole new ballgame, Overspeed.

You're ignorant to the fact that Bob Owens may be right with his hypothesis, and while it may seem far fetched by INTL and AA lovers on this forum.....it's worth believing if it may position US with greater leverage at the table. At a minimum, the company negotiators can't cry poor with the negotiating team or the NMB, and management can't cry poor with employee's either because I don't and won't believe them. Will you????

This announcement may be a game changer in our favor.....for whatever it's worth!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Was the trade off on the $57M in retiree medical funds how we got the higher line premium? Isn't paying for your retiree medical industry standard?

If it was it was a deal that was never discussed with the committee. Maybe you were a part of such a discussion but I wasnt. So you are of the opinion that our labor carries no value? That if we get something such as a line premium that it has to come from somewhere else? That the company gets to slice off a piece of the pie and say "thats all you get divy it up as you like" and the size of the slice is non-negotiable? That is the typical stance of a company union.

We do pay for our retiree medical, in fact we started paying for it 20 years ago way before everyone else did. The selling point back then was that the plan is jointly funded and that it would not dissapear even if AA did, that each of our dollars would be matched by one of their dollars, a concept similar to a 401k match. If the company wants out they should refund us both our contribution and the match.

You didnt respond to the Supplimental Medical that was sold to the members as a suppliment to their retiree medical and then simply terminated leaving AA with $76 million dollars.

Yes they bought new airplanes. Kind of humbling huh Bob? They were able to engineering a huge aircraft purchase and not wait for the labor groups. I wonder how that could have happened. Could it be AA has a distinct advantage over other airlines in that they have not gone BK? Those planes can be repossessed or leases renegotiated in BK. Labor agreements, well...we all know what happens with those in front of the benevolent BK judge. Just ask UA, NW, DL, US, and CO. Speaking of CO, ask any ex-Con if they got their pay frozen in 1990, BK in late 1990, and laid off in 1994 in aircraft maintenance. Then ask them what CO did right after that. That's right they bought all brand new Boeing planes! Tons of them and looks like they paid for them with all that money they saved on overhaul since that's what they shut down in 1994.

Yep. AA is way better organized then you. They saw the TA rejection as a possibility and like a true tactician, they had a better plan than the JFK Casear Owens the Great. Now they have a slew of new planes (collateralized debt) and the ability to restructure labor agreements in BK court.

Thanks Brainiac

Hey Brainiac? Are you getting fustrated? Resorting to petty name calling?

What would stop them from doing all that even if we had agreed to the TA?

Nothing, and you knew that.

Seems like you and a few others just love beating that BK drum, like its been beat for the last 8 years. 8 years is a long time to be holding on by ones fingernails. The fact is we dont care anymore, it no longer strikes fear, we want our money, even if they file the next day, lets get it over with. You bring up Continental, well now they earn more than we do, have a DB and a 401k match, have more vacation, more Holidays, more sick time, more IOD time, Doubletime, and have CS language in the contract, have a paid Lunch or the option to go home early, all letters on performance such as our CR-1s removed after one year except for sexual harassment, inclement weather language and other things that we dont have. One of my former coworkers lives in Valley Stream. After he was laid off from AA at JFK he was hired by Continenatl in EWR. Despite the fact that he lives five miniutes from JFK and drives right past it and has to spend $20/day on tolls to get to EWR he turned down recall to stay at Continental. Delta went BK and they too earn more than we do. The fact is that no matter what we do nothing we do can stop AA from going BK so why build a strategy around something you have absolutely no control over? If anything the more we give before BK the less we are likely to end up with exiting it.

 

[Overspeed]

If it was it was a deal that was never discussed with the committee. Maybe you were a part of such a discussion but I wasnt. So you are of the opinion that our labor carries no value? That if we get something such as a line premium that it has to come from somewhere else? That the company gets to slice off a piece of the pie and say "thats all you get divy it up as you like" and the size of the slice is non-negotiable? That is the typical stance of a company union.

We do pay for our retiree medical, in fact we started paying for it 20 years ago way before everyone else did. The selling point back then was that the plan is jointly funded and that it would not dissapear even if AA did, that each of our dollars would be matched by one of their dollars, a concept similar to a 401k match. If the company wants out they should refund us both our contribution and the match.

You didnt respond to the Supplimental Medical that was sold to the members as a suppliment to their retiree medical and then simply terminated leaving AA with $76 million dollars.



Hey Brainiac? Are you getting fustrated? Resorting to petty name calling?

What would stop them from doing all that even if we had agreed to the TA?

Nothing, and you knew that.

Seems like you and a few others just love beating that BK drum, like its been beat for the last 8 years. The fact is we dont care anymore, it no longer strike fear, we want our money, even if they file the next day, lets get it over with.

Then you concede defeat? Not frustrated, just amazed out how you are not as smart as you set yourself up to be. You got played.

The work has a need to get done. Labor does have a value, it's called market rate. What is market rate for overhaul work? Not $100/hour, it's $55/hour! So organized labor has to close that $45/hour gap in shorter turn times, better dependability, and higher work output per AMT than the other guys that charge $55/hour. You stated earlier that several hundred million dollars would buy better morale? Wow! That's a deal! How do you sell we bought $200M in morale last year to the banks and shareholders. You know what Wall Street wants, a higher stock price and to them, labor has very little value unless they see it in their stock price.

Supplemental Medical was terminated because of Obamacare. When you pay for insurance premiums, do you get a refund if you don't use it? Uh, no.

Nothing can stop a BK filing however, if you go in to BK court with no agreement, the judge has greater latitude.

 

[AANOTOK]

You are wrong Bob. See, right here in this little post by Jacob-Josh kinfolk Worldtravler, he spells it out wonderfully.

"There are reports that the aircraft purchase agreements have special provisions for the manufacturers and finance companies in the event of a BK...
if that is the case, the likelihood that AA will file in order to "adjust" its labor contracts grows larger and larger.
.
IF AA can fly newer planes, pay the same per gallon for fuel but use less of it, obtain the financing to run the business, and not dump debt in BK - since AMR has very little unsecured debt they likely couldn't anyway - then BK becomes almost exclusvely a process to reduce labor costs - and perhaps some supplier and facility costs.
.
It also eliminates the possibility of AMR being the target of a hostile takeover in BK.
.
With the stock price so low, the value to the stockholders that is lost becomes very small in comparison to the benefits the company could obtain with revised labor contracts."

You can't outsmart these guy's. They read about the industry, we only work in it!

 

[Bob Owens]

If Pike and JR are endorsing Stewart.....Peterson's a shoe in for president. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Pike, Luis, JR and Gilboy all favor the rejected T/A??

Overspeed, maybe you are a toolboy and cabana boy for Little & Co.! Towel please!

JR and Larry were against the TA.

 

[Overspeed]

Seems like you and a few others just love beating that BK drum, like its been beat for the last 8 years. The fact is we dont care anymore, it no longer strike fear, we want our money, even if they file the next day, lets get it over with. You bring up Continental, well now they earn more than we do, have a DB and a 401k match, have more vacation, more Holidays, more sick time, more IOD time, Doubletime, and have CS language in the contract, have a paid Lunch or the option to go home early, all letters on performance such as our CR-1s removed adter one year except for sexual harassment and other things that we dont have. One of my former coworkers lives in Valley Stream. After he was laid off from AA at JFK he was hired by Continenatl in EWR. Despite the fact that he lives five miniutes from JFK and drives right past it and has to spend 420/day on tolls to get to EWR he turned down recall to stay at Continental. In fact didnt AA send people over to Continental to learn how they do their maintenance a few years back?

Delta went BK and they too earn more than we do.

Oh, and you forgot to mention that CO and DL also have half the employees we do. Are you flying to TUL and AFW to tell them some of them have to go?

 

[Bob Owens]

You are wrong Bob. See, right here in this little post by Jacob-Josh kinfolk Worldtravler, he spells it out wonderfully.

"There are reports that the aircraft purchase agreements have special provisions for the manufacturers and finance companies in the event of a BK...
if that is the case, the likelihood that AA will file in order to "adjust" its labor contracts grows larger and larger.
.
IF AA can fly newer planes, pay the same per gallon for fuel but use less of it, obtain the financing to run the business, and not dump debt in BK - since AMR has very little unsecured debt they likely couldn't anyway - then BK becomes almost exclusvely a process to reduce labor costs - and perhaps some supplier and facility costs.
.
It also eliminates the possibility of AMR being the target of a hostile takeover in BK.
.
With the stock price so low, the value to the stockholders that is lost becomes very small in comparison to the benefits the company could obtain with revised labor contracts."

You can't outsmart these guy's. They read about the industry, we only work in it!

Well then lets roll. We are already at the bottom, cant count USAIR or UAL anymore as they are in mediation as well.

 

[Rogallo]

[sarcasm with a bit of truth]

FWAAA's comment is proof that the expense of a happy work crew that actually gives a damn about its company can't be quantified and therefore deducted from the corporate taxes - that's all that matters - didn't you know that?

Cretin.

[/sarcasm]

:huh: :huh:

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh, and you forgot to mention that CO and DL also have half the employees we do. Are you flying to TUL and AFW to tell them some of them have to go?

I believe your figures are wrong. Maybe they have a lot less mechanics but they dont have half the employees that AA does.

Who says they have to go? Why has AA been bringing work in house for the last eight years, increased insourcing and reducing outsourcing? Because it costs more? Didnt you just cite how brilliant they are? The fact is that prior to other carriers filing BK AA had the most pro-company outsourcing rules of the legacy carriers. I recall preparing to ship our engines overseas for repair under our current language. Yep, we were sending OH work overseas way before SWA.

AA keeps it in house because they've figured its more cost effective to do so, granted thats at current wage levels. Poor moral has existed since 2003 and hurt productivity yet the company still proceeded to bring more work in house. what we dont know is where they consider the threshold to be before its no longer cheaper, apparently Arpey either doesnt know or refuses to disclose it.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Are you that ignorant to the financial debacle of 2008????

Banks aren't lending to the most credit worthy people, and companies in this country, yet AA, who YOU believe is on the brink of BK, gets billions in financing from lease companies and aircraft manufacturers.

Honestly, do you think companies like Boeing and Airbus will lend billions in financing to AA, only to have AA file BK and then spend millions more on BK lawyers hoping to get a better deal in BK????? Are you an idiot, or what???

In what era did the CO go BK, and then buy new aircraft?????? oh, 1990's. 2011, it's whole new ballgame, Overspeed.

You're ignorant to the fact that Bob Owens may be right with his hypothesis, and while it may seem far fetched by INTL and AA lovers on this forum.....it's worth believing if it may position US with greater leverage at the table. At a minimum, the company negotiators can't cry poor with the negotiating team or the NMB, and management can't cry poor with employee's either because I don't and won't believe them. Will you????

This announcement may be a game changer in our favor.....for whatever it's worth!!!

You're still buying into the BS from years ago - "Sign this here confidentiality agreement and you can see our books so you'll know we can file for bankruptcy" - all one needs to read is the US Code.

The way the US Code read in 2003 and the way it still reads today (with a few exceptions), while not saying it outright, allows even a healthy company to file for Chapter 11 protection, not that they'd want to. When that crap came out from both the company and union alike, it was obvious everything that followed would be a lie yet many believed and still believe it - sounds like you're one that still believes in qualifications to file.

One can rest assured AMR's legal team has been pouring over the US Code looking for ways to complete the job of hosing the employees while rewarding the infestation of Centrepork for doing so.

Credit worthiness of a business after filing for Chapter 11 and an individual after filing for Chapter 13 (both are reorganization measures) are two entirely different animals and can't be compared.