Bottom Line

[TWU-GOTTA-GO]

Don't try to sell a partial story; that turns people away. amfa should embrace all skills, trades and jobs required to make an aircraft/airline function correctly uniting the membership against the so-called management rather than the way things have been handled in the past. amfa preaches 'unity', yet makes it a point to piss off half of its prospective membership because of their supporters' elitist attitude.

I was in disagreement with most of your post regarding AMFA's attitude towards the lesser skilled workgroups until your last statement regarding its supporters, which is correct regarding some--not all. With that said, I've talked to Dell countless times and have never heard him put down another workgroup, and witnessed a strike at NWA where the last offer would have dealt the equivalent to our "title 2" and the cleaners a fatal blow in jobs compared to AMT's, but they chose to strike for all jobs. At AA, it seems as all workgroups blame other workgroups for their workgroups shortcomings in their contract. I highly doubt, in fact guarantee, that even one workgroup within our own union would strike for another workgroup, let own for another station, etc.; just not going to happen. We do have a large population of elitist within not only our ranks, but the ranks of many workgroups on the property. So while there are some AMFA supporters who have or are preaching an elitist tone, remember that most of their union experience comes from working under a union who thrives on dividing and conquering, and a company who is among the best at union-busting. I could agree with you more if we actually worked in a union environment and had unity amongst all workgroups, but heck, we don't even have unity between union leadership or locals for that matter.

 

[Raptor]

Eventually,and it is just a matter of time, AA will spin off overhaul. When that does happen the company will once again gut your contract. And you will be paid like the rest of the MRO facilities in the US. So it will not matter if you live in Kentucky, Alabama, or Oaklahoma the company will bring your wages and benefits down to be competitive with the rest of the MRO's in the country. So enjoy your lifestyle now because it will not last forever. You will be lucky to get 3 more years or till the end of the next contract. The company is all ready gearing up for the MRO work on foreign carriers. In order for them to get any business they will have to streamline the pay and benefits in Tulsa. Then where will you move to

I agree I think it is inevitable, there will come a day when overhaul will be spun off or sold outright, but hopefully it will not be in the next 10 years after that who cares what they do with overhaul.

Even if they spin off overhaul before 10 years the longer it last's the closer I will be to retirement and the more retirement money
I will be accumulating, so I like many others, I will simply ride the ride as long as it lasts then when it's over you simply move on.

AA moves quite slowly so overhaul could very easily last another 10 years especially if we continue to get 5 or 6 year contracts, as I
hope we do.

I would say you don't have anything to laugh about yet Time For Change, The ball is still in Overhaul's court,
you may not even still work for AA when your day to laugh actually comes. :unsure:

I was born in Tulsa and will NEVER leave unless they close the city permantly, there are other jobs here should Maintenace go away
too soon.

 

[The Goose]

I was in disagreement with most of your post regarding AMFA's attitude towards the lesser skilled workgroups until your last statement regarding its supporters, which is correct regarding some--not all. With that said, I've talked to Dell countless times and have never heard him put down another workgroup, and witnessed a strike at NWA where the last offer would have dealt the equivalent to our "title 2" and the cleaners a fatal blow in jobs compared to AMT's, but they chose to strike for all jobs. At AA, it seems as all workgroups blame other workgroups for their workgroups shortcomings in their contract. I highly doubt, in fact guarantee, that even one workgroup within our own union would strike for another workgroup, let own for another station, etc.; just not going to happen. We do have a large population of elitist within not only our ranks, but the ranks of many workgroups on the property. So while there are some AMFA supporters who have or are preaching an elitist tone, remember that most of their union experience comes from working under a union who thrives on dividing and conquering, and a company who is among the best at union-busting. I could agree with you more if we actually worked in a union environment and had unity amongst all workgroups, but heck, we don't even have unity between union leadership or locals for that matter.

So while there are some AMFA supporters who have or are preaching an elitist tone, remember that most of their union experience comes from working under a union who thrives on dividing and conquering, and a company who is among the best at union-busting.

We do have a large population of elitist within not only our ranks, but the ranks of many workgroups on the property.

Those are the ones that need to be slapped (figuratively, of course) down by those who understand what a union is, and to get poetic as some do, set upon the path of righteousness. Not dealing internally with these attitudes and allowing them to fester doesn't do a damned thing for amfa's credibility - isn't that what amfa's supporters were trying to establish?

but heck, we don't even have unity between union leadership or locals for that matter.

With the twu's and company's blessings, I might add.


I'm rather tired of Stewart's rants, but I must admit he's one of the few to want the twu replaced for the right reasons. People like Rodgers want to be special - that crap won't win friends amongst those amfa supporters want signing a card for a representational election.

Do you blame them?

Had the elitists been dealt with immediately and severely in the beginning, I wager the twu would already be out.

 

[MCI transplant]

I get (got) nothing from EAL due to the fact that I was not vested. However, those EAL people who are receiving checks from the PBGC seem to be receiving the same amounts as similarly situated TWAers.

<_< ------ aa don't realize we were both screwed by the same Unon! The IAM!!! And he's got the balls to say we conspired to take what was not ours! The exTWA employees had no say in any of it! What aafsc is pissed off about is that at least we got something out of our efforts at TWA! Those at EAL, including himself, were not as fortunate, they got little, or nothing! There is nothing us exTWAers can do about that! "Who said life was fair?" :down:

 

[Raptor]

Those are the ones that need to be slapped (figuratively, of course) down by those who understand what a union is, and to get poetic as some do, set upon the path of righteousness. Not dealing internally with these attitudes and allowing them to fester doesn't do a damned thing for amfa's credibility - isn't that what amfa's supporters were trying to establish?
With the twu's and company's blessings, I might add.
I'm rather tired of Stewart's rants, but I must admit he's one of the few to want the twu replaced for the right reasons. People like Rodgers want to be special - that crap won't win friends amongst those amfa supporters want signing a card for a representational election.

Do you blame them?

Had the elitists been dealt with immediately and severely in the beginning, I wager the twu would already be out.

Heres the thing Goose some of us refuse to be slapped and we slap back, the only ones who can be put on the path of
righteousness are the mindless sheep who are looking for a leader to follow, in any organization there will be many
different attitudes towards many different things, really the only thing you can do with a grown man is agree to
disagree with his opinion you cannot make him do or think anything, Stewart tried many times to get me to conform
to the Majority or the leaders views, but my attitude was always I will think and do what I want and if you don't
like it then that is to bad for you, do something about it if you can.
And of course there was nothing he could do about it is there.
Peer pressure does not work with everyone. not that Dave is my peer he is a welder, I actually like Rodgers
he seems like a decent A&P Mechanic guy. 🙄
plus he is not nearly as high strung and judgmental as Dave.

 

[limit]

Eventually,and it is just a matter of time, AA will spin off overhaul. When that does happen the company will once again gut your contract. And you will be paid like the rest of the MRO facilities in the US. So it will not matter if you live in Kentucky, Alabama, or Oaklahoma the company will bring your wages and benefits down to be competitive with the rest of the MRO's in the country. So enjoy your lifestyle now because it will not last forever. You will be lucky to get 3 more years or till the end of the next contract. The company is all ready gearing up for the MRO work on foreign carriers. In order for them to get any business they will have to streamline the pay and benefits in Tulsa. Then where will you move to

First of all do not confuse my comments and those of that Raptor thing.
I dont agree with what he says.

That said…….

You guys are unbelievable.
Do you think you are telling me something I don’t know?
When all this happens, as you say, what will you get out of it?
Will you get on this board and write “see I told you so”, and gloat?
What else will you get out of it?
How will your situation be any different than it is now?
How will it be different in the meantime while we are all waiting for this to happen?
Will the cost of living on the coast fall drastically because of it?
Do you think AA will give you, the line, something?
Instead of recognizing what I wrote as an accurate assessment of our situation, start thinking of what can be done,
and maybe start seriously thinking if you are willing to do something really drastic about it, you write the pathetic crap above.
Will the knowledge that I will for ever be destroyed and will have nowhere else to go,
allow you to get over your pour scolded ego and do something?
Or will it be enough to satisfy you so that you can go back to posturing ,bitching, and blaming everyone ,but yourself?

I am absolutely convinced that unless we strike and are willing to lose everything
we will only get peanuts. Every single time.
Do we have what it takes?
Or are we just cowering behind our worthless union to hide the fact we don’t have a pair?
Twu will never go on strike? Twu will always sell us out? So what?
Are you willing to strike? Are you willing to put it on the line? Who cares if little is walking the line or not.

Think about this.

Regardless if we go on strike led by the union, or wildcat, what will the government and AA’s actions be?
I think that their reaction (whatever that might be) will be the same either way.
If you agree, what do you care about what twu, or overhaul do?

Its about time to put up or shut up guys.
Or we can leave things as they are, and live unhappily ever after.

Unless of course you guys have any better ideas.

 

[Hopeful]

First of all do not confuse my comments and those of that Raptor thing.
I dot agree with what he says.

That said…….

You guys are unbelievable.
Do you think you are telling me something I don’t know?
When all this happens, as you say, what will you get out of it?
Will you get on this board and write “see I told you soâ€￾, and gloat?
What else will you get out of it?
How will your situation be any different than it is now?
How will it be different in the meantime while we are all waiting for this to happen?
Will the cost of living on the coast fall drastically because of it?
Do you think AA will give you, the line, something?
Instead of recognizing what I wrote as an accurate assessment of our situation, start thinking of what can be done,
and maybe start seriously thinking if you are willing to do something really drastic about it, you write the pathetic crap above.
Will the knowledge that I will for ever be destroyed and will have nowhere else to go,
allow you to get over your pour scolded ego and do something?
Or will it be enough to satisfy you so that you can go back to posturing ,bitching, and blaming everyone ,but yourself?

I am absolutely convinced that unless we strike and are willing to lose everything
we will only get peanuts. Every single time.
Do we have what it takes?
Or are we just cowering behind our worthless union to hide the fact we don’t have a pair?
Twu will never go on strike? Twu will always sell us out? So what?
Are you willing to strike? Are you willing to put it on the line? Who cares if little is walking the line or not.

Think about this.

Regardless if we go on strike led by the union, or wildcat, what will the government and AA’s actions be?
I think that their reaction (whatever that might be) will be the same either way.
If you agree, what do you care about what twu, or overhaul do?

Its about time to put up or shut up guys.
Or we can leave things as they are, and live unhappily ever after.

Unless of course you guys have any better ideas.

WE ARE ALL SCREWED!

 

[Raptor]

First of all do not confuse my comments and those of that Raptor thing.
I do agree with what he says.

Thanks for agreeing with me Limit, let's go have a beer after work and talk about retirement.

Just remember WE are right and they are wrong, ( whoever does not agree with us I mean. )

By the way are you a mindless follower sheep or a wolf, cause I don't drink with no sheeps. :unsure:

Wolf's and or Raptors do things their way not the other guys or sheeps way.

Forget about striking or revolutions, I think the TWU Membership has already established their mindset
concerning such things, I offer the past voting record as my evidence of such.
It is NOT the TWU leadership's fault either, the Members out number the leaders a thousand to 1 so they could
say NO to the leaderhip at anytime if they wanted to........ they don't.

The Leaders only have the power to control those who want to be controlled and or allow themselves to be controlled.

 

[The Goose]

Heres the thing Goose some of us refuse to be slapped and we slap back, the only ones who can be put on the path of
righteousness are the mindless sheep who are looking for a leader to follow, in any organization there will be many
different attitudes towards many different things, really the only thing you can do with a grown man is agree to
disagree with his opinion you cannot make him do or think anything, Stewart tried many times to get me to conform
to the Majority or the leaders views, but my attitude was always I will think and do what I want and if you don't
like it then that is to bad for you, do something about it if you can.
And of course there was nothing he could do about it is there.
Peer pressure does not work with everyone. not that Dave is my peer he is a welder, I actually like Rodgers
he seems like a decent A&P Mechanic guy. 🙄
plus he is not nearly as high strung and judgmental as Dave.

You totally missed my point - I'll try again:

When we get past the point of assigning positions on the food chain owing to the certificates/licenses held, we'll have a chance to get a majority on board and do some housecleaning. Until then, we can continue the attempt to herd cats.

Any clearer?

 

[Raptor]

You totally missed my point - I'll try again:

When we get past the point of assigning positions on the food chain owing to the certificates/licenses held, we'll have a chance to get a majority on board and do some housecleaning. Until then, we can continue the attempt to herd cats.

Any clearer?

ya I got you and that does make sense, If you beleive in the strenght in numbers concept, you just kind of freaked me out with the whole control the other guys thinking and actions thing, this explanation was much clearer.
Stewart was one of the AMFA leaders I was an Organizer, he wanted to control my actions and thoughts as you suggested, I refused
to comply, that was my point.

I am big time against mindless follower sheeps and always have been, constantly blameing their leaders for
their problems, if your leader is not going in your direction tell him to pound sand, leaders are always out numbered.
I am also big time against trying to control another person, EVERYONE has a right to be an Individual, you cannot
force your will on them, unless of course they are a mindless follower sheep in which case you can.

 

[The Goose]

ya I got you and that does make sense, If you beleive in the strenght in numbers concept, you just kind of freaked me out with the whole control the other guys thinking and actions thing, this explanation was much clearer.

I am big time against mindless follower sheeps and always have been, constantly blameing their leaders for
their problems, if your leader is not going in your direction tell him to pound sand, leaders are always out numbered.
I am also big time against trying to control another person, EVERYONE has a right to be an Individual, you cannot
force your will on them, unless of course they are a mindless follower sheep in which case you can.

Never will you hear me say I believe people should follow like puppies, then roll over and pee on their bellies.

As I said though, if the people will not move in the same direction toward a common goal (i.e., getting our collective #### together) for whatever reason, then we haven't a prayer.

I illustrated a couple of the roadblocks I've seen - there are, no doubt, many more.

 

[limit]

Corrected the typo,above, should be:

First of all do not confuse my comments and those of that Raptor thing.
I dont agree with what he says.

Not:

First of all do not confuse my comments and those of that Raptor thing.
I dot agree with what he says.

 

[Raptor]

Never will you hear me say I believe people should follow like puppies, then roll over and pee on their bellies.

As I said though, if the people will not move in the same direction toward a common goal (i.e., getting our collective #### together) for whatever reason, then we haven't a prayer.

I illustrated a couple of the roadblocks I've seen - there are, no doubt, many more.

I agree you are absolutly correct in that assessment, but I think that AA work force is aging the average age now is 46( fact ),
for example everyone in my shop except for 2 people can retire in the next 10 years that plus the constant threat of bankruptcy, closing
or selling overhaul bases, I think the writing is on the wall their won't be any revolutions anytime soon.
In 15 years after the now Majority retire the work force will be fairly young and new again and maybe then there will be some
revolutions, because in my Opinion revolution is a young man's game preferrably a newbie with little to lose.

Once again that is just my Opinion, starting over after 45 is damn tough. Even if you don't have medical problems
throw in some of that and you really have legitimate concerns.

If you truly have your own mind then you will never be led astray by false prophets and or Worthless leaders.
It never seems to amaze me what people in cults etc. do, many of them are everyday normal people who want and need
to fit in, so they give up their own free will in order to do so. Sad very sad in my opinion.
I am kind of a hermit I like being alone, except for my son of course, the advantage to being a hermit is it makes me much less suseptable to manipulation.
and that is always a good thing.

Thanks Limit we still on for those beers or are you a follower sheep, remember I don't drink with no stinking sheep.
you do sound kind of like a SHEEP limit.

 

[Vortilon]

I was in disagreement with most of your post regarding AMFA's attitude towards the lesser skilled workgroups until your last statement regarding its supporters, which is correct regarding some--not all. With that said, I've talked to Dell countless times and have never heard him put down another workgroup, and witnessed a strike at NWA where the last offer would have dealt the equivalent to our "title 2" and the cleaners a fatal blow in jobs compared to AMT's, but they chose to strike for all jobs. At AA, it seems as all workgroups blame other workgroups for their workgroups shortcomings in their contract. I highly doubt, in fact guarantee, that even one workgroup within our own union would strike for another workgroup, let own for another station, etc.; just not going to happen. We do have a large population of elitist within not only our ranks, but the ranks of many workgroups on the property. So while there are some AMFA supporters who have or are preaching an elitist tone, remember that most of their union experience comes from working under a union who thrives on dividing and conquering, and a company who is among the best at union-busting. I could agree with you more if we actually worked in a union environment and had unity amongst all workgroups, but heck, we don't even have unity between union leadership or locals for that matter.

The whole idea of having a union like the AMFA represent aircraft mechanics was to unite them industry wide. By adding all these other classifications to the mix - you dilute it. The fleet service guys (in general), could care less about the needs of the AMTs. Just look at the history of what AMTs have lost in the last 25 years, and what the clerks have gained. The clerks will stand on your neck to take a job away from you, and they get paid virtually unlimited O/T to do it as well. All done with union support. In addition, I don't like the idea of a part time clerk working for beer money to have a vote on anything that affects my pay or benefits. This is not intended to be an anti FSC rant, let the facts speak for themselves. Can anybody name one task that aircraft maintenance has got back from fleet service that we used to do? At the time, our union leadership at most of the locals was FSCs - who were very eager to do pushbacks, brake rides, de-ice all at the cost of AMT jobs and or O/T. How many AMTs who took the time to get their licenses before AA hired them, got reimbursed for their tuition? Everything was geared for the benefit of the clerks. I don't blame them - they took advantage of the situation - result - AMTs = short end of stick. In a nutshell, one doesn't have to be labeled as an elitist to take an interest in who negotiates the next contract for him or her. 😉

 

[Raptor]

The whole idea of having a union like the AMFA represent aircraft mechanics was to unite them industry wide. By adding all these other classifications to the mix - you dilute it. The fleet service guys (in general), could care less about the needs of the AMTs. Just look at the history of what AMTs have lost in the last 25 years, and what the clerks have gained. The clerks will stand on your neck to take a job away from you, and they get paid virtually unlimited O/T to do it as well. All done with union support. In addition, I don't like the idea of a part time clerk working for beer money to have a vote on anything that affects my pay or benefits. This is not intended to be an anti FSC rant, let the facts speak for themselves. Can anybody name one task that aircraft maintenance has got back from fleet service that we used to do? At the time, our union leadership at most of the locals was FSCs - who were very eager to do pushbacks, brake rides, de-ice all at the cost of AMT jobs and or O/T. How many AMTs who took the time to get their licenses before AA hired them, got reimbursed for their tuition? Everything was geared for the benefit of the clerks. I don't blame them - they took advantage of the situation - result - AMTs = short end of stick. In a nutshell, one doesn't have to be labeled as an elitist to take an interest in who negotiates the next contract for him or her. 😉

almost Everyone looks out for themselves first and formost that is a proven fact, it is no coincidence
that most of the local 514 Presidents have been A&Ps.

I would certainly trust an A&P Mechanic before anyone else because whats good for him is good for me as well, it is only common sense to take an interest in ones Job title when looking for representation. 😉
Even an SRP/OSM or a Welder may not be inclined to look out for an A&Ps best interests much less a FSC. <_<