Bottom Line

[The Goose]

This is nothing more than a TWU stooge once again believing what they told him down on Pine Street.

Try getting outside your 46 mile comfort radius and seek the truth.

Hardly, Dave. This definition of unskilled is what I've personally heard amfa supporters say and no doubt why del Femine's personal association failed to oust the twu. It's rather difficult to get people to sell themselves down the river after hearing these rants regardless of whether or not their union is corrupt.

It takes many skills/trades working in concert to perform aircraft maintenance due to the complexity of the beasts, but when I see a mechanic pumped up by amfa belittling a man with 30+ years experience in another trade because he hasn't a pair of certificates like a 20-something snot-nosed brat who literally bought them from Spartan, something is bad wrong with that organization.

You can 'wax poetic' all you wish; "Seek the Truth", etc. - but it's still a deflection; a way to avoid an answer. Also, look up "Ad Hominem".

Now - quit trying to gain credibility via insults as you typically do and answer the question.​

 

[MCI transplant]

I get (got) nothing from EAL due to the fact that I was not vested. However, those EAL people who are receiving checks from the PBGC seem to be receiving the same amounts as similarly situated TWAers.

<_< ------Oh! Are you telling me there were people who stuck it out at EAL during the "Lorenzo years"? Isn't that what you've been accusing TWAer's of doing with Icahn? :huh: And you got "NOTHING" out of it! How many years did you work for them? :huh:

 

[Raptor]

Obvious setup hah?
You might believe that you should be paid a location wage, but the company prefers you get a market wage.
What are the market wages these days for line and periodic checks in NY?
Location hah?
I got news for you guys.
The only reason mechanics like you are underpaid (for their location that is,right?) is none other than yourselves.
You and only you.
Stop blaming TWU, Tulsa, Guatemala, the White House, Congress and your dog.
The line mechanics that keep coming to work for those same low wages are to blame.
Years ago I faced the same problem.
Keep going to work for practically poverty wages in the east, quit and go work another job in NY, or move. I chose to move.
If you guys expect to get anything more, YOU must do something about it.
If you think that guys in Tulsa, Guatemala, England or Germany will get this done for you, well frankly you are idiots.
Most of you are in your forties and fifties for Christ sake, what kind of dream world are you in?
As long as there is a pool of workers willing to do your work for less you don’t have a chance of achieving your goals.
I was not willing to stay out east and did not want to quit, so guess what?
I am not suggesting you move or quit. Maybe you have another solution, I don’t.
Even if by some incredible miracle overhaul supported you, and went on strike, their impact to operations will be minimal for weeks.
It’s you, the line that has to walk, regardless of what overhaul does.
You think you need TWU’s approval for that?
Bull I say, it’s all inside you.
And since practically none of you can secure a working permit in Guatemala, Germany or England its either Tulsa , another “Locationâ€￾ or some really deep soul searching for you guys.
In the mean time instead of Germany wages you will get American wages.
And this my friend is your location as far as this industry is concerned.

Dude you hit the nail on the head, you are right most likely the only way New York will get what they should have is if they go on strike and nobody fills their positions, Tulsa will not do it for them, we are taking care of ourselves just fine, New York will have to fight their fight without expecting support from Overhaul stations if they wish to ensure their success.
counting on Overhaul will only lead to disapointment that has already been proven from the past.

Some line Mechanics have threatened to go on strike or fight back in another way no matter what the Overhaul stations do, if that is more than just TALK then maybe they have a chance to get what they want, but if they are waiting for the TWU or Overhaul to help them
then I think they will be waiting for a very long time.
I do think that New York and other High cost area's deserve a COLA it only makes sense to me, but they can only count on themselves to get it, as you said Limit if they think they are underpaid then they can withold their services untill they feel like they are being paid enough, if they were to do that then it would not matter what the Overhaul stations did.

It will be interesting to see if the line stations will continue to go along with the TWU Majority vote or if they have the guts to rebel and go their own way as an autonomous group, if they choose to follow the Majority once again I will not call them cowards for not standing alone for what they need, although one could if they wanted to.

It is easy to call someone names for doing what they think they should do as oppossed to doing what you think they should do.

Good point Limit.

 

[Raptor]

OUCH! Does informer posses airframe and/or power plant certificate(s)?

TWU Informer aka Dave Stewart is a welder crew chief in the palm building in Tulsa with an 83 seniority.
not sure if he has an A&P license or not but my guess is No, because if he did he would most likely
be in a Mechanic shop instead of a welder shop.

Let's ask him, Do you have an A&P license Informer or Not. ? :unsure: don't be afraid to tell us.

 

[AMFAMAN]

It will be interesting to see if the line stations will continue to go along with the TWU Majority vote or if they have the guts to rebel and go their own way as an autonomous group, if they choose to follow the Majority once again I will not call them cowards for not standing alone for what they need, although one could if they wanted to.

Maybe it's time for a history lesson of the last rebellion on the line, you know the one where Tulsa did a bunch of B-Checks to help the company out, or the many field trips they sent to bail the company out. If a line strike was legal, or even a wildcat line strike were to happen, a group of Raptors from Tulsa would be field tripping and/or working unlimited OT to help out the company. Then again the same thing would happen if the twu actually called the strike themselves. :down:

 

[Raptor]

Maybe it's time for a history lesson of the last rebellion on the line, you know the one where Tulsa did a bunch of B-Checks to help the company out, or the many field trips they sent to bail the company out. If a line strike was legal, or even a wildcat line strike were to happen, a group of Raptors from Tulsa would be field tripping and/or working unlimited OT to help out the company. Then again the same thing would happen if the twu actually called the strike themselves. :down:

I don't do field trips nor do I work overtime, with my money why would I need to, but I do get your point,
I am not sure if that would happen or not, I would not do it for sure but would another UNION brother do it ? :unsure:
maybe, if that in fact does in fact happen then that tells me that it is not just the leadership that has a problem but
the Membership itself which was my theory all along.
According to TWU Informer though there is no problem with Tulsa, he thinks we are mostly hard core solidarity Union
brothers down here, that would never hose another Union brother. could he be wrong.

If Overhaul stations really do what you claim they do then the line stations are in trouble, but hey they could still take a
chance and wildcat strike, all they have to lose is a crummy bad paying bad benefit job right.

 

[TWU informer]

TWU Informer aka Dave Stewart is a welder crew chief in the palm building in Tulsa with an 83 seniority.
not sure if he has an A&P license or not but my guess is No, because if he did he would most likely
be in a Mechanic shop instead of a welder shop.

Let's ask him, Do you have an A&P license Informer or Not. ? :unsure: don't be afraid to tell us.

No A&P just a meager welder.

Proud meager welder, I have been to the docks and done mechanic jobs, most mechanics bring their weld needs and "G" jobs to have them done. I assume this is because they cannot do the welding themselves. Not really sure why the welders can do their job but they don't seem to be able to ours.

Does this make me "unskilled" or unable to tell the difference between a worthless union and a democratic one? Does it make me unable to identify a stooge that is blindly led or a selfish future scab?

Exactly why would I be afraid of the truth? It is the TWU stooges that fear the truth, not me.

Guess who the mechanics' Crew Chief calls to have a repair done on an aircraft when a structure hack job has been accomplished by the highly skilled A&P Mechanic?

 

[TWU informer]

Hardly, Dave. This definition of unskilled is what I've personally heard amfa supporters say and no doubt why del Femine's personal association failed to oust the twu. It's rather difficult to get people to sell themselves down the river after hearing these rants regardless of whether or not their union is corrupt.

It takes many skills/trades working in concert to perform aircraft maintenance due to the complexity of the beasts, but when I see a mechanic pumped up by amfa belittling a man with 30+ years experience in another trade because he hasn't a pair of certificates like a 20-something snot-nosed brat who literally bought them from Spartan, something is bad wrong with that organization.

You can 'wax poetic' all you wish; "Seek the Truth", etc. - but it's still a deflection; a way to avoid an answer. Also, look up "Ad Hominem".

Now - quit trying to gain credibility via insults as you typically do and answer the question.​

I have personally heard TWU supporters claim we will get all our $$hit back, does that make it true? You remind me of High Speed Steel.

I have personally heard TWU supporters claim the local officer elections were completely fair and handled correctly. Does that make it true? How is the Arbitration Committee going for ya?

What was your question again?

 

[Raptor]

No A&P just a meager welder.

Proud meager welder, I have been to the docks and done mechanic jobs, most mechanics bring their weld needs and "G" jobs to have them done. I assume this is because they cannot do the welding themselves. Not really sure why the welders can do their job but they don't seem to be able to ours.

Does this make me "unskilled" or unable to tell the difference between a worthless union and a democratic one? Does it make me unable to identify a stooge that is blindly led or a selfish future scab?

Exactly why would I be afraid of the truth? It is the TWU stooges that fear the truth, not me.

Guess who the mechanics' Crew Chief calls to have a repair done on an aircraft when a structure hack job has been accomplished by the highly skilled A&P Mechanic?

I thought all A&P could weld, I know I can, so most Highly skilled A&P can do both, but I do not think a welder could repair an Airplane without some supervision from an A&P, you assumed wrongly maybe A&P come to have you do their G jobs because they do not do enough welding at home to own their own personal welder, you have one in your shop and I am sure you would not let them use it to do their own welding or most likely they would, next time they ask you to do a G job offer to let them use the welder in your shop and I am sure they will get it done.

I am not saying meager welders are unskilled, they certainly are, but I am saying they are not Aircraft Mechanics who can repair an Aircraft on their own, since they are not Aircraft Mechanics maybe they should not be in an Aircraft Mechanic Union along with all the other non Aircraft Mechanics.

Just something to think about Dave :unsure:

I do understand why you need more money it must suck to not get A&P license pay.
I have 3 FAA licenses, A&P, pilots license, and 2 FCC radio Licenses just to name a few.
Too bad I can't get paid for ALL of them.
look it up on the web if you don't believe me their all open to the public on the FCC and FAA sites.

Have a nice Day

 

[TWU informer]

I thought all A&P could weld, I know I can, so most Highly skilled A&P can do both, but I do not think a welder could repair an Airplane without some supervision from an A&P, you assumed wrongly maybe A&P come to have you do their G jobs because they do not do enough welding at home to own their own personal welder, you have one in your shop and I am sure you would not let them use it to do their own welding or most likely they would, next time they ask you to do a G job offer to let them use the welder in your shop and I am sure they will get it done.

I am not saying meager welders are unskilled, they certainly are, but I am saying they are not Aircraft Mechanics who can repair an Aircraft on their own, since they are not Aircraft Mechanics maybe they should not be in an Aircraft Mechanic Union along with all the other non Aircraft Mechanics.

Just something to think about Dave :unsure:

I do understand why you need more money it must suck to not get A&P license pay.
I have 3 FAA licenses, A&P, pilots license, and 2 FCC radio Licenses just to name a few.
Too bad I can't get paid for ALL of them.
look it up on the web if you don't believe me their all open to the public on the FCC and FAA sites.

Have a nice Day

Yeah it is sad the skill pay doesn't match the license pay.

I am not the least bit interested in your licenses, it will not stop you from being a scab or selfish, thus they don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Come on over to the shop on Thursday or Friday, I have some .020 Titanium, an HW-20 Torch, Argon and appropiate weld rod. I want to see some of your welding skills in action. I may not be interested in viewing your license, but I do have a digital camera that I will take photos and share if you can really weld the aircraft grade thin exotic metals. Don't be scared, come and show me your welding skills.

I will even let you sharpen the tungsten to what ever liking you want before you begin.

By the way, if you had worked your ass off in the AMFA Drive as you claim, you would know the National Mediation Board decides Craft or Class Designation not the Union or some potential scab. That is really one of the first basic issues ALL organizers were trained on. You must have been out spending all of that cash or opening a savings account when we had that session.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Let's stipulate that most AA welders are better welders than most AA A&Ps.

.

 

[Raptor]

Yeah it is sad the skill pay doesn't match the license pay.

I am not the least bit interested in your licenses, it will not stop you from being a scab or selfish, thus they don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Come on over to the shop on Thursday or Friday, I have some .020 Titanium, an HW-20 Torch, Argon and appropiate weld rod. I want to see some of your welding skills in action. I may not be interested in viewing your license, but I do have a digital camera that I will take photos and share if you can really weld the aircraft grade thin exotic metals. Don't be scared, come and show me your welding skills.

I will even let you sharpen the tungsten to what ever liking you want before you begin.

By the way, if you had worked your ass off in the AMFA Drive as you claim, you would know the National Mediation Board decides Craft or Class Designation not the Union or some potential scab. That is really one of the first basic issues ALL organizers were trained on. You must have been out spending all of that cash or opening a savings account when we had that session.

My post had nothing to do with who decides who can be in AMFA, I merely said maybe they should not be in a Aircraft Mechanics Union since they are not technically Aircraft Mechanics ( a Personal Opinion ) I do know who can and cannot be in AMFA, that does not mean I necessarily agree with the NMB, usually I don't Even Aircraft cleaners and facilities Maintenance can be in AMFA, once again that does not mean it is right.

I will agree that a full time welder wether A&P or not would be better than a part time welder, I have not welded Titanium because you don't run into it much on the street but once one knows how to weld learning the specifics of a particular Metal does not take long.

I do think there is a whole lot more learning involved in being an A&P capable or repairing almost anything on an Aircraft than a welder that only needs to know how to do one thing.

 

[The Goose]

I have personally heard TWU supporters claim we will get all our $$hit back, does that make it true? You remind me of High Speed Steel.

I have personally heard TWU supporters claim the local officer elections were completely fair and handled correctly. Does that make it true? How is the Arbitration Committee going for ya?

What was your question again?

Never mind - you did answer the question to Raptor - I'm quite sure you remember the question; you simply chose to ignore it and redirect and deflect. You're far too predictable.

There's no need to address the rigged local 514 elections or if we'll (get all our $$hit back). I doubt that will happen to any significant degree. I'm sure the company and 'union' will throw a fish of some sort our way, but it will be rather insignificant and in no way begin to atone for the corporate lies and union misrepresentation of the last few years.

My intent, which you obviously missed or chose to ignore, was to point out to you that amfa will have to change it's elitist ways in order to get enough people on board to get rid of the current infestation some refer to as a union with a majority such that even the company can't cook the books enough to provide the twu the support it previously did during the most recent card count for amfa. Calling it a 'bus-driver's union' as some do and other belittling terms only reinforces the crap spoon-fed to the membership. Your tirades and ignoring questions as I had posed to you provides additional reinforcement to those who question amfa's intent. Is that what you want? I understand your hatred for the twu but is that hate so important to maintain that you'll turn people away with it? Reminds me of the 'Born-Again' types that turn people off and away by their constant rants. Have you anything of substance to say or just a continuation of preaching 'the truth, the truth'. What is your truth, Dave? Almost all here know and agree the twu international is a bunch of crooks as is the corporate management. I understand your issue with the twu is it being in bed with the company (in my mind, criminal behavior) and not representing its membership. I agree with you - I want them out also. I want the twu slapped with a DFR lawsuit. I'd like to see the company nailed to the wall also.

Learn from the past; the go-it-alone stuff won't work. Don't try to sell a partial story; that turns people away. amfa should embrace all skills, trades and jobs required to make an aircraft/airline function correctly uniting the membership against the so-called management rather than the way things have been handled in the past. amfa preaches 'unity', yet makes it a point to piss off half of its prospective membership because of their supporters' elitist attitude.

That's just a few observations - I'm rather tired of typing this AM.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Dude you hit the nail on the head, you are right most likely the only way New York will get what they should have is if they go on strike and nobody fills their positions, Tulsa will not do it for them, we are taking care of ourselves just fine, New York will have to fight their fight without expecting support from Overhaul stations if they wish to ensure their success.
counting on Overhaul will only lead to disapointment that has already been proven from the past.

Some line Mechanics have threatened to go on strike or fight back in another way no matter what the Overhaul stations do, if that is more than just TALK then maybe they have a chance to get what they want, but if they are waiting for the TWU or Overhaul to help them
then I think they will be waiting for a very long time.
I do think that New York and other High cost area's deserve a COLA it only makes sense to me, but they can only count on themselves to get it, as you said Limit if they think they are underpaid then they can withold their services untill they feel like they are being paid enough, if they were to do that then it would not matter what the Overhaul stations did.

It will be interesting to see if the line stations will continue to go along with the TWU Majority vote or if they have the guts to rebel and go their own way as an autonomous group, if they choose to follow the Majority once again I will not call them cowards for not standing alone for what they need, although one could if they wanted to.

It is easy to call someone names for doing what they think they should do as oppossed to doing what you think they should do.

Good point Limit.

Obvious setup hah?
You might believe that you should be paid a location wage, but the company prefers you get a market wage.
What are the market wages these days for line and periodic checks in NY?
Location hah?
I got news for you guys.
The only reason mechanics like you are underpaid (for their location that is,right?) is none other than yourselves.
You and only you.
Stop blaming TWU, Tulsa, Guatemala, the White House, Congress and your dog.
The line mechanics that keep coming to work for those same low wages are to blame.
Years ago I faced the same problem.
Keep going to work for practically poverty wages in the east, quit and go work another job in NY, or move. I chose to move.
If you guys expect to get anything more, YOU must do something about it.
If you think that guys in Tulsa, Guatemala, England or Germany will get this done for you, well frankly you are idiots.
Most of you are in your forties and fifties for Christ sake, what kind of dream world are you in?
As long as there is a pool of workers willing to do your work for less you don’t have a chance of achieving your goals.
I was not willing to stay out east and did not want to quit, so guess what?
I am not suggesting you move or quit. Maybe you have another solution, I don’t.
Even if by some incredible miracle overhaul supported you, and went on strike, their impact to operations will be minimal for weeks.
It’s you, the line that has to walk, regardless of what overhaul does.
You think you need TWU’s approval for that?
Bull I say, it’s all inside you.
And since practically none of you can secure a working permit in Guatemala, Germany or England its either Tulsa , another “Locationâ€￾ or some really deep soul searching for you guys.
In the mean time instead of Germany wages you will get American wages.
And this my friend is your location as far as this industry is concerned.




Eventually,and it is just a matter of time, AA will spin off overhaul. When that does happen the company will once again gut your contract. And you will be paid like the rest of the MRO facilities in the US. So it will not matter if you live in Kentucky, Alabama, or Oaklahoma the company will bring your wages and benefits down to be competitive with the rest of the MRO's in the country. So enjoy your lifestyle now because it will not last forever. You will be lucky to get 3 more years or till the end of the next contract. The company is all ready gearing up for the MRO work on foreign carriers. In order for them to get any business they will have to streamline the pay and benefits in Tulsa. Then where will you move to

 

[Ed Norton]

Eventually,and it is just a matter of time, AA will spin off overhaul. When that does happen the company will once again gut your contract. And you will be paid like the rest of the MRO facilities in the US. So it will not matter if you live in Kentucky, Alabama, or Oaklahoma the company will bring your wages and benefits down to be competitive with the rest of the MRO's in the country. So enjoy your lifestyle now because it will not last forever. You will be lucky to get 3 more years or till the end of the next contract. The company is all ready gearing up for the MRO work on foreign carriers. In order for them to get any business they will have to streamline the pay and benefits in Tulsa. Then where will you move to

Lets not forget that once overhaul gets spun off from the airline, the workers will no longer be under the Railway Labor Act. That means te TWU stands to loose a bunch of cash flow from "right to work" states like Texas and Oklahoma; they'll still be able to collect at MCI.
Would AA stab its running dog lackey union in the back? l