Bob owens strike ?

[TWU informer]

I may be in for a colossal let down, but I'm hopping the money we didn't get becomes the money they want now. We saved the compAAny millions +interest for failing to ratify. Those who in turn ratified could lose what they gained. What's ironic is the same tech service group that failed to ratify their contract in 03' were forced to take concesssions along with the rest of us but now were able to ratify apart. Any of you TWU zealots familiar with these double standard rules?

I too have some hope left.

The TWU is "going to fight like hell".
Still in denial that all we will receive, and all that we have ever received is nothing more than what the company wants to give.

TWU is nothing more than a smoke screen made up of an over paid collection of appointed fools that are attempting to have us believe they make a difference in what the end result of a T/A looks like. The only difference they make is the division of the pie along with a history of reducing pay and benefits in exchange for dues payers. But in the end it is only what the company wants to give and how.

I still believe AA wants to remain in the maintenance business, but not every aspect of the maintenance business. I think we will see decent pay rates, with adjustments in outsourced work, classifications, along with changes in license pay and jobs that require the license. Interesting enough AA had interviews Mon thru Wed of last week for AMT's and without question they plan to still bring more new hires on board. That indicates and buyout of the top seniority on the horizon.

 

[Birdman]

Interesting enough AA had interviews Mon thru Wed of last week for AMT's and without question they plan to still bring more new hires on board. That indicates and buyout of the top seniority on the horizon.

That would be a waste of time unless it was compAAny funded. Doubt the membersip will opt to bare the cost of another buyout.

 

[Buck]

That would be a waste of time unless it was compAAny funded. Doubt the membersip will opt to bare the cost of another buyout.

An early out offer without the pension bogging the company down? hmmmm? What would that entail?

 

[FWAAA]

All the funds are held by JPMorgan in individual accounts for each participant. The trust was set up specifically for Bankruptcy. When we agreed to this concession back in 1990 there was a lot of backlash over having to pay money to the company 35 years before we turn 65. If the company held the funds and went BK as PanAm recently had not only would our jobs possibly disappear but our funds for retiree medical would as well. The company agreed to the match as a way of keeping the concession as at that time we were the only ones paying for this, and as long as the company maintained the plan they not only got back all their funds but they got ours as well.

So how do you figure we don't get the match, the plan is on the local 562 website.

I read the trust and I agree with you - you should get both halves, your contributions and the match, as long as AA has funded the match and nobody fights the arrangement in bankruptcy court.

Still, I'd gladly trade both halves of the retiree medical for the $50/hr you guys deserve. A 50% payraise would go a long way to help me get over a few thousand dollars in a retiree medical account.

 

[Rogallo]

You fail to accept the fact that even if the outcome re: Chapter 11 would have been the same, you would have had in your pocket a 6% signing bonus, line would have had $2.55 more per hour for 18 months. Not to mention you would currently be making more every hour awating the axe to fall. I do fail to see where the outcome would be the same in my or your pcoket book. I lost over $16,000.00 while some were "fighting" for a better deal.....

That woulda been great. What kind of benefit increases would we have gotten?

Just asking.

 

[Duke787]

Who has flipped? Same old same old out there.

Yes, a couple of Locals got together and retained an attorney because we did not want filtered information. We relied on the economist that the International hired and when he did the cost out he was $ 250 million off. Every assumption he made was in favor of the company. the company didn't even challenge the modified cost out.

On the issue of strikes, well plenty of judges ruled that "separate but equal" was legal, it took Rosa Parks to sit in one of the front seats, despite all the legal rulings, to change that legal injustice. Airline workers may need to follow the example of Rosa Parks, we should comply with what the RLA says, as much as it sucks it's a law that was put in place by elected representatives, not of couple of one per centers who aren't accountable to the public, and according to the RLA if our contract is abrogated we can resort to self help. If our contract is abrogated we must react and resort to self help in spite of the NWA ruling.Judges are not supposed to make laws, they are supposed carry out the law, the judges convoluted decision in the NWA case needs to be challenged and we ain't waiting for years while the legal system jerks us around, we have already been suffering for eight years. If workers under the NLRA can strike why can't workers under the RLA? The prohibition on strikes or self help in the RLA is clear that it's tied to the status quo. Hortons own statements say that he went this route for strategic reasons, that he was no using the code for its intended purpose, so they better not even think about touching our contract. To them this is a game,"let's see how low we can drive them down before they rebel", but we ain't playing, when it starts injunctions won't stop it.
This is a watershed moment, everyone will be watching us, if they abrogate our contract or use BK to once again get what they want everyone else should be prepared to face the same thing again. They will keep taking till we rebel, when we go we will need everyone else to go as well.
Bankruptcy deals with creditors, when you extend creyou wand exchange something of value without getting something back at the time of the exchange you take a risk, when a court tells exxon that they have to sell fuel to a bankrupt carrier for $1 gallon or tell the PONY that they can only charge $ 100 to land a 777 at JFK then they may have an argument to try and justify what they have done to workers Real people should not be treated as the property of corporate persons, our rights should be superior to the rights of corporate persons. If you extend credit you inherit risk, so the logic and legal argument behind wiping out debts and even terminating deferred compensation has some basis, but to impose terms going forward, regardless of the period is not where someone engaged in an activity where it's expected that there is risk, imposing terms going forward is nothing less than confiscating the property of one person for the unwarranted benefit of another.

Bob, are you calling for a strike if AA comes after our contract during BK? Are you circumventing the TWU as an organisation to call a strike if the TWU doesn't do what you think they should do? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you want to go on strike to make case law that employees can strike while under the RLA.

I ask because you are playing chicken with ALL of our jobs. Your last theory didn't work so well when the last TA was voted down.

 

[Duke787]

That woulda been great. What kind of benefit increases would we have gotten?

Just asking.

What kind of benefit increase are you going to get in BK?

just asking

We were gong to get pay increase during the worst econimc climate sense the depression.

The vote no guys will tell you they were protecting the profession, which is great, but how much are they going to be able to protect in BK. Know when to pick your battles.


Not blaming the unions for BK

 

[Bob Owens]

You fail to accept the fact that even if the outcome re: Chapter 11 would have been the same, you would have had in your pocket a 6% signing bonus, line would have had $2.55 more per hour for 18 months. Not to mention you would currently be making more every hour awating the axe to fall. I do fail to see where the outcome would be the same in my or your pcoket book. I lost over $16,000.00 while some were "fighting" for a better deal.....

Well first of all the increase was $2, not $2.55, we get .55 now. The 6% signing bonus for the base was tied to language that clearly said the company could sell off up to 25% of the value of the maintenance operation in any given year without ensuring that the workers at that location would be offered employment and still work under our contracts terms. As I said in another post the closing of the class II stations thanks to the ASM increase would have resulted in more mechanics in the class I stations, cutting the OT and likely offsetting any increase. THe ASM increase also would have allowed the company to transfer more flying to commuter carriers, further eroding the need for OT. The $2 increase comes out to $4k per year, the guys in class I stations are pulling down anywhere from $15 k to $40k per year in OT. My guess is that OT in the bases is currently high as well. You can count on most of that dissapearing once a contract is signed, they did the same thing prior to the 2001 contract. Make OT available so they arent hurting as bad during negotiations, then cut it off once the deal is signed. Have you called in to find out what you have in your Prefunding account? I've got $13000, and since I was on payroll prior to 1990 my figures are low, most my age and many who are younger have a lot more than that. With the raise I would have seen around $6000 more over the 18 months, but it would have cost me $13000. I would have taken $13000 from an interest bearing BK proof trust and handed over to a company in exchange for credits held by a company that has now filed BK. Sure you were over 50 so for the time being you kept prefunding and retiree medical, but in BK new deals could be reached and then voided again if they reject the business plan. No doubt you would not have made out any better than us. In BK we could have a new deal put in where you buy credits for retiree medical, like us, we accept it because now those without it are the majority thanks to the hundreds of heads they added the last eighteen months, then after ratification the business plan is rejected because they feel that the company is still carrying too much liability, then they come back and wipe out both the retiree medical and your "credits". So like us you would lose everything you had in prefunding because we would have allowed the company to terminate our participation in exchange for "credits" that could become worthless in BK. Maybe in your particular case it would have been worth it, give up your prefunding for $16,000, that is , if you still had a job at AA.

 

[TWU informer]

Well first of all the increase was $2, not $2.55, we get .55 now. The 6% signing bonus for the base was tied to language that clearly said the company could sell off up to 25% of the value of the maintenance operation in any given year without ensuring that the workers at that location would be offered employment and still work under our contracts terms. As I said in another post the closing of the class II stations thanks to the ASM increase would have resulted in more mechanics in the class I stations, cutting the OT and likely offsetting any increase. THe ASM increase also would have allowed the company to transfer more flying to commuter carriers, further eroding the need for OT. The $2 increase comes out to $4k per year, the guys in class I stations are pulling down anywhere from $15 k to $40k per year in OT. My guess is that OT in the bases is currently high as well. You can count on most of that dissapearing once a contract is signed, they did the same thing prior to the 2001 contract. Make OT available so they arent hurting as bad during negotiations, then cut it off once the deal is signed. Have you called in to find out what you have in your Prefunding account? I've got $13000, and since I was on payroll prior to 1990 my figures are low, most my age and many who are younger have a lot more than that. With the raise I would have seen around $6000 more over the 18 months, but it would have cost me $13000. I would have taken $13000 from an interest bearing BK proof trust and handed over to a company in exchange for credits held by a company that has now filed BK. Sure you were over 50 so for the time being you kept prefunding and retiree medical, but in BK new deals could be reached and then voided again if they reject the business plan. No doubt you would not have made out any better than us. In BK we could have a new deal put in where you buy credits for retiree medical, like us, we accept it because now those without it are the majority thanks to the hundreds of heads they added the last eighteen months, then after ratification the business plan is rejected because they feel that the company is still carrying too much liability, then they come back and wipe out both the retiree medical and your "credits". So like us you would lose everything you had in prefunding because we would have allowed the company to terminate our participation in exchange for "credits" that could become worthless in BK. Maybe in your particular case it would have been worth it, give up your prefunding for $16,000, that is , if you still had a job at AA.

So we are going to get a better deal? Or could get a better deal? Or might get a better deal? Or should get a better deal?
OK I have no choice but still wait for you to deliver. I just disagree that's all.

 

[Duke787]

It's time for the self proclaimed experts to step aside and let the
Professionals do their job. I wouldn't ask a bk lawyer to change
engine on a S80, I'm not asking an A&P to represent me in a bk
court.

 

[tech2101]

Hopeful, on 08 December 2011 - 06:46 AM, said:
Snip...

you might see some negotiations with the unions as AA will be writing out some hefty checks to the participants in the plan...

You must be in an alternate universe if you think AA is going to be writing "hefty checks" to any employee while operating under bankruptcy protection.

 

[Tex-Mech]

It's time for the self proclaimed experts to step aside and let the
Professionals do their job. I wouldn't ask a bk lawyer to change
engine on a S80, I'm not asking an A&P to represent me in a bk
court.

Based on the letter the international posted, it looks like the locals tried to get experts, but now we are stuck with gless.

 

[Bob Owens]

So we are going to get a better deal? Or could get a better deal? Or might get a better deal? Or should get a better deal?
OK I have no choice but still wait for you to deliver. I just disagree that's all.

First lets see what they throw out there.

This BK will be like no other because each BK is different and many things are different between now and 2003. In 2003 unions across the industry had just recieved 30% increases months before the filings, we have already lost over 40% since 2003 and have not had an increase in three years. AA is rolling in with over $4 billion. Their planes are full, fares may not be super high but the fees are. Their revenue is strong, over $24 billion this year and their average hourly wage for mechanics not including OT is pretty much at the bottom. The company will likely cite the OT driven inflated number and we will have to show that they are trying to decieve the court because they made a choice not to hire, hiring would not only drive down OT but drive down the average wage not including OT because the starting wage is lower than competitors and we have longer progressions to the top. We could cite how AA has a relationship with several A&P schools across the country and a flexible starrting rate so they could have hired more mechanics to reduce both their OT and average costs but failed to do so. OT costs will likely be reduced as the fleet shrinks and is rebnewed as well. BK will not produce more Pilots or Mechanics and people are already leaving AA. Just heard a guy from DFW quit and got hired by SWA and a few new hires quit in Tulsa. Boeing has billions of dollars worth of contracts and has estimated that huge numbers of new mechanics will be needed for the industry. The skills that mechanics have are portable and other industries have surpassed what Aviation pays in many major urban areas. UAL which went through BK has a deal on the table thats better than what we rejected and USAIR is in Mediation. Otherwise we are below everyone else, including non-union post BK Delta. Any cuts in any way are unrealistic because the market dictates otherwise. Sure they may cite the Pension and Retiree medical, we can show how the costs for those items, which are far off in the future are more than covered by what we gave up now that nobody else gave up. Even the company said that switching to the DC plan would not net them any savings until far off in the future. In other words there is nothing left to take. If they target OH then they have to fork over the numbers and prove that they can get it done cheaper and have alternatives, looks like Timco is already late. When AA dumps all their underwater leases they wont have so many spares and 10 days is a lot of lost revenue.

 

[Duke787]

Based on the letter the international posted, it looks like the locals tried to get experts, but now we are stuck with gless.

With Gless and the law firm the TWU hired to represent us.

 

[Bob Owens]

You must be in an alternate universe if you think AA is going to be writing "hefty checks" to any employee while operating under bankruptcy protection.

Hopeful is a little confused. He is referring to the Prefunding. Its a VEBA, if the company terminates the plan we get the money, but AA would not be writing the checks, JP Morgan would be. They hold the funds in a trust. Mine would be around $13,000, most would have more because its a little counter intuative, those who are in it the longest would not have the most. Those who were on payroll prior to 1990 are locked in with lower contributions thus have a lower match, people who were hired after made higher contributions. The deal was regardless of what was in the fund it all went to the company and we all got the same coverage. So I would get the same coverage for lets say $20,000 in total funds at retirement as a guy who had $60,000.