Bob owens strike ?

[Bob Owens]

I'm confused. In the past didn't you say the Fleet deal was bad and they should turn it down? Well, then it seems with your argument it would have been better to go in with more money, holidays, SK time ect.

I don't understand the "two bites at the apple" analogy. Are you saying that they will not go after the Prefunding and Retiree Medical in BK? I don't think they need to piece meal their assault on the contract in that fashion. It seems like a ludicrous statement.

I've said all along that we should not have given up more outside of BK than we would have in BK. We should have rejected the concessions of 2003, as a friend told me "Better to go into BK fat than skinny".

Two bites of the Apple. Heres one example, actually three bites.

In the TA that was rejected the proposal included terminating participation in the retiree medical plan for those under 50, this plan is prefunded per the agreement with a dollar for dollar match. In the companys offer those under 50 who wished to get coverage through the company had to not only give up 20 years of contributions from the company but also their after tax contributions for "credits". Those credits would likely go to zero value in BK as they are not held in a BK proof trust like the Prefunding is. So they get all the funds from those under 50, a few months later they approach the Union and say that they have to get the same deal from those over 50 or they will file BK. Now that they have split the membership in two,they get it so between the two pre-bk rounds they net over $100 million, (thats just M&R, more than double that if you factor in the whole TWU) but they still have the liability of providing medical benefits to retirees and have all these "credits" on their books, they then file BK, wipe out the credits and wipe out the Retiree medical for those who are retired, all they have to do is refund whats left of the retirees contributions remaining in the account. Not only would they wipe out millions in liability but they would net millions in income that would offset future withdrawls from the General fund to pay their benefit obligations.

Lets see what they go after. To me those two items (retiree and the DB Pension) represent a big paper liability for the company and wiping them out, even though it may not really affect the real performance of the company is just too tempting. It would make their numbers look great to Wall Street and help justify giving themselves huge bonuses when all this is done.

 

[Hopeful]

Lets see what they go after. To me those two items (retiree and the DB Pension) represent a big paper liability for the company and wiping them out, even though it may not really affect the real performance of the company is just too tempting. It would make their numbers look great to Wall Street and help justify giving themselves huge bonuses when all this is done.

At the end of the day, the company filed CH.11...Whatever the wisdom for it, they filed....I would like to believe that the judge is going to see right through AA's plan merely to rewrite labor agreements and end pensions and retiree medical.....but alas! they filed!
The best case scenario on the pensions is that it is frozen....If they wish to terminate the retiree medical prefunding, then, as you have stated, they must refund the entire account....<----On this one, you might see some negotiations with the unions as AA will be writing out some hefty checks to the participants in the plan...

And I agree with you that even ending these benefits will have NO effect on company performance, the judge will see $$$$$$ attached to it. The judge's priority is the company and its restructuring...I do not see him telling creditors that they are going to lose their asses but the workers will see increase in pay and benefits...I hope I am wrong.
Chapter 11 is the fashionable and accepted tool to break unions and screw creditors....That's it!

One more thing....If LABOR was so detrimental to AA's cost structure and survival, AA would have put the LABOR issues before the judge in the next court appointment....not "whenever."

 

[FWAAA]

At the end of the day, the company filed CH.11...Whatever the wisdom for it, they filed....I would like to believe that the judge is going to see right through AA's plan merely to rewrite labor agreements and end pensions and retiree medical.....but alas! they filed!

If AA argues that it cannot reorganize without slashing pay and terminating the pension, AA's "motives" and the history won't matter.

The best case scenario on the pensions is that it is frozen....If they wish to terminate the retiree medical prefunding, then, as you have stated, they must refund the entire account....<----On this one, you might see some negotiations with the unions as AA will be writing out some hefty checks to the participants in the plan...

Bankruptcy probably frees AA from any claim that it must refund the match unless the match is in your trust account. The provision about what AA has to do if it's terminated may be modified by Ch 11. Unfunded promises don't usually get paid. Your contributions plus interest are safe. The match? I doubt you get it.

And I agree with you that even ending these benefits will have NO effect on company performance, the judge will see $$$$$$ attached to it. The judge's priority is the company and its restructuring...I do not see him telling creditors that they are going to lose their asses but the workers will see increase in pay and benefits...I hope I am wrong.

Agreed. Everyone is going to take a cut. Secured lenders, unsecured lenders and the employees. My prediction is that Horton won't just be satisfied with the Vermont plan of 2003, but will slash and burn.

 

[Zom JFK]

We had a bunch of guys quit a few years back, at first they took a small pay cut but it didn't take long before they were making more than they were at AA.

If you are under 40 leave this industry and don't look back. Needless to say I don't encourage my kids to take in interest in this.

Wow thats what I did I got another job when I was 36 and I had 13 years with AA. I took the test a month after the 2003 givebacks realizing that the job would never recover and certainly NEVER be restored to the 2003 level. I'm 42 now and I'm at my new job for 7 years making almost double a year what I used to make at AA. The best thing I ever did. Makes me wonder what I was thinking staying at that horrible company all those years. So take Bobs advice and get out of there you will be glad you did.

 

[TWU informer]

Can we please re-vote on the last T/A without the Vote No videos?

Or are we going to run further off the cliff as if we are the annoited martars of the profession?

I think the time has now come that I can call BS and say "I told you so"

 

[TWU informer]

So take Bobs advice and get out of there you will be glad you did.

No need to take that advice, another 6 to 9 months and Bob will have succeeded in forcing us out and there wont be any getting out or choice to it. Does anyone think they are bluffing and will not seek CAB modifications using 1113? If yes, keep dreaming but please get drug tested to see if someone gave you some date rape drugs in your coffee. I know a guy that recently retired and he had a saying that appears to be very true. At least once a day he would say "I am surrounded by F'ing Idiots"

 

[Bob Owens]

Bankruptcy probably frees AA from any claim that it must refund the match unless the match is in your trust account. The provision about what AA has to do if it's terminated may be modified by Ch 11. Unfunded promises don't usually get paid. Your contributions plus interest are safe. The match? I doubt you get it.

All the funds are held by JPMorgan in individual accounts for each participant. The trust was set up specifically for Bankruptcy. When we agreed to this concession back in 1990 there was a lot of backlash over having to pay money to the company 35 years before we turn 65. If the company held the funds and went BK as PanAm recently had not only would our jobs possibly disappear but our funds for retiree medical would as well. The company agreed to the match as a way of keeping the concession as at that time we were the only ones paying for this, and as long as the company maintained the plan they not only got back all their funds but they got ours as well.

So how do you figure we don't get the match, the plan is on the local 562 website.

 

[Mr Red]

No need to take that advice, another 6 to 9 months and Bob will have succeeded in forcing us out and there wont be any getting out or choice to it. Does anyone think they are bluffing and will not seek CAB modifications using 1113? If yes, keep dreaming but please get drug tested to see if someone gave you some date rape drugs in your coffee. I know a guy that recently retired and he had a saying that appears to be very true. At least once a day he would say "I am surrounded by F'ing Idiots"

You fail to accept the fact that the majority said NO MORE VOLUTARY GIVEBACKS ! We could have offered to work for half pay and the outcome would have been the same.Upper managment knew taking the bonus every year was a poison pill for labor relations,yet they took them anyway.We are the bottom of the food chain here,they went after the pilots CBA .One thing we know for sure,their won't be any more B/K threats .

 

[AV1]

No need to take that advice, another 6 to 9 months and Bob will have succeeded in forcing us out and there wont be any getting out or choice to it. Does anyone think they are bluffing and will not seek CAB modifications using 1113? If yes, keep dreaming but please get drug tested to see if someone gave you some date rape drugs in your coffee. I know a guy that recently retired and he had a saying that appears to be very true. At least once a day he would say "I am surrounded by F'ing Idiots"

Regarding that last sentence, so true, so true. I find myself thinking that at least once a day.

 

[DallasConehead]

No need to take that advice, another 6 to 9 months and Bob will have succeeded in forcing us out and there wont be any getting out or choice to it. Does anyone think they are bluffing and will not seek CAB modifications using 1113? If yes, keep dreaming but please get drug tested to see if someone gave you some date rape drugs in your coffee. I know a guy that recently retired and he had a saying that appears to be very true. At least once a day he would say "I am surrounded by F'ing Idiots"

x2

 

[paul1]

x2

x3 its time for for some people to step aside before things get $#$%ed up more than they are already going to be.

amateur hour is over. please step aside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we need to be on one pg.

 

[Buck]

x3 its time for for some people to step aside before things get $#$%ed up more than they are already going to be.

amateur hour is over. please step aside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we need to be on one pg.

If we need to be on one page, then why the division between line and overhaul?

 

[Buster CRC]

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/shotwell071211.html

 

[TWU informer]

You fail to accept the fact that the majority said NO MORE VOLUTARY GIVEBACKS ! We could have offered to work for half pay and the outcome would have been the same.Upper managment knew taking the bonus every year was a poison pill for labor relations,yet they took them anyway.We are the bottom of the food chain here,they went after the pilots CBA .One thing we know for sure,their won't be any more B/K threats .

You fail to accept the fact that even if the outcome re: Chapter 11 would have been the same, you would have had in your pocket a 6% signing bonus, line would have had $2.55 more per hour for 18 months. Not to mention you would currently be making more every hour awating the axe to fall. I do fail to see where the outcome would be the same in my or your pcoket book. I lost over $16,000.00 while some were "fighting" for a better deal.....

better deal...

man that sounds really good doesn't it?

Wasn't long ago the mantra was "Retro isn't off the table, and we are going to get all of the prefund account back.

ROFLMAO

You never will be able to justify losing that guaranteed money based on your speculation of gloom and doom! And I mean NEVER
Not when over 50% of the membership lost $10,000.00 plus in the last 18 months. Go ahead and try though if you like.

Given a revote on the same T/A you would see 85-90% yes rate now.

 

[Birdman]

You never will be able to justify losing that guaranteed money based on your speculation of gloom and doom! And I mean NEVER
Not when over 50% of the membership lost $10,000.00 plus in the last 18 months. Go ahead and try though if you like.

Given a revote on the same T/A you would see 85-90% yes rate now.

I may be in for a colossal let down, but I'm hoping the money we didn't get becomes the money they want now. We saved the compAAny millions +interest for failing to ratify. Those who in turn ratified could lose what they gained. What's ironic is the same tech service group that failed to ratify their contract in 03' were forced to take concesssions along with the rest of us but now were able to ratify apart. Any of you TWU zealots familiar with these double standard rules?