Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[swamt]

 
I completely agree that AMR was going to file BK regardless of what M&R voted. If we had voted yes it would have narrowed down the scope of changes needed in 1113 though. Pay would have not been an issue. Outsourcing and pension would have however.
 
If past AMFA elections at the Nat'l end up like last time then expect Key to protect his position somehow. AMFA Nat'l had to rerun the election last time because of voting irregularities. Some AMFA blogs blame Key of rerunning the election to keep his guys in which didn't work when the DOL got involved.
 
And firing the worthless union (AMFA) at UAL is what they did and you are right, an industrial union prevented more work from being outsourced unlike AMFA did when they were over UAL M&R. So is that the plan? Bring in AMFA, lose overhaul, and then go back to an industrial union like UAL? Ok

Wrong O/S.  It was the IAM, I believe, who represented the UAL mechs prior to AMFA that nego all the language and allowed for the co to outsource.  When AMFA took over at UAL they inherited the contract from IAM and could do nothing on what the IAM had already agreed to.  This very same exact thing will happen at AA when AMFA is brought in to replace the TWU, AMFA will get blamed for everything that the TWU agreed to with the co and nego into the contract and nego out of the contract.  Same thing happened here at SWA when AMFA "inherited" the contract with no teeth that was nego and agreed to by the teamsters.   Although AMFA was there at the time the co took actions to outsource and other things they did at UAL was directly tied to the previous unions agreements and nego's,  AMFA was required by law to inherit and enforce the current contract that the IAM left them,  period.  Get it straight before posting the lies and misinformation.  You and othe AMFA haters just want all the folks out here to believe it was all AMFA's fault at UAL, as well as at SWA for the outsourcing when it is directly tied to the previous unions in both cases.  At SWA, AMFA came in and to this day is still fixing large loop holes and grey areas that were left behind by the teamsters nego contracts for the past 30 some odd years.  Nice try though...

 

[Overspeed]

Overspeed
 
How much of a raise would an AMT at an overhaul base received in the 2010 debacle?  How many on the line would have gotten the top pay rate? You make that 2010 deal sound like we missed out on something worth a sh!t.  One thing it would have done is set a new precedent on removing seniority as a basis for getting or keeping benefits. I know members that had 20 years seniority and under 50 that were going to get screwed on their retiree med compared to someone that had 10 years seniority and was over 50.  What would the next contract be like? Everyone over 55 gets a 10 dollar an hour raise and everyone under 55 gets a 10 dollar an hour pay cut? Its one thing to have an early out voted on in a contract and paid for by reduced pay and benefits to those staying or sticking it to the new hires that are not there to defend themselves but to expect active employees to cannibalize each other was to much for the membership to stomach. You blaming the no vote on a small group of members doesn't give credit to everyone else that saw through the BS in that rag of a contract. Was it just too much on the twu to at least get the same holidays as the non union employees? That whole thing wasn't worth voting on and if I had the chance to vote again I would vote the same way "NO".

 
Missed out? I'm going to say yes. Was it perfect? Hell no. But look at where you are now. Are you better off than where you would be had you voted yes? Well is having 8 holidays, one week more VC, lokced in highest top rate in our peer group better than you have now? Yes definitely.
 
So now you have less than the things you would have had under the 2010 TA. Apparently in your mind that is good. Congratulations on your no vote.

 

[Overspeed]

Wrong O/S.  It was the IAM, I believe, who represented the UAL mechs prior to AMFA that nego all the language and allowed for the co to outsource.  When AMFA took over at UAL they inherited the contract from IAM and could do nothing on what the IAM had already agreed to.  This very same exact thing will happen at AA when AMFA is brought in to replace the TWU, AMFA will get blamed for everything that the TWU agreed to with the co and nego into the contract and nego out of the contract.  Same thing happened here at SWA when AMFA "inherited" the contract with no teeth that was nego and agreed to by the teamsters.   Although AMFA was there at the time the co took actions to outsource and other things they did at UAL was directly tied to the previous unions agreements and nego's,  AMFA was required by law to inherit and enforce the current contract that the IAM left them,  period.  Get it straight before posting the lies and misinformation.  You and othe AMFA haters just want all the folks out here to believe it was all AMFA's fault at UAL, as well as at SWA for the outsourcing when it is directly tied to the previous unions in both cases.  At SWA, AMFA came in and to this day is still fixing large loop holes and grey areas that were left behind by the teamsters nego contracts for the past 30 some odd years.  Nice try though...

 
At UAL we all know the IAM started it but AMFA promised the membership there that they if they voted no on the IAM TA and brought in AMFA they would get a better deal. Instead AMFA completed the roll over in BK. OV said himself that AMFA members at UAL would have gotten a worse deal risking abrogation in court. Little said the same thing and he is the bad guy because you have selective hearing. Grow up and realize AMFA could not and would not have been able to get a better deal than the TWU did at AA.

 

[Overspeed]

We voted no in August of 2010. Typically after an NMB mediated TA gets rejected the parties are released. We never asked. Didn't even meet with the company till December. Negotiating committee passed a vote to ask for release but International still refused. Had we been released we most likely would have had a PEB negotiated settlement in place six months before AA, then like the pilots, flight attendants, stores, fleet service, dispatchers and sim techs we would have gone into BK in a good position. 2010 was a cost neutral contract, the 20% would have been the same but we would have had more. If it had passed, how do you suppose Tulsa and Title 2 would have approached getting to the 20%? Do you think they would have left the premiums that only AA line mechanics got? You seem to forget that Tulsa overwhelmingly voted NO in 2010.

 
Typically release is possible but every indication from the NMB was that they would sit on it based on what I heard. Kind of like what is happening with the IAM and US. NMB is not favorable to strikes much anymore.
 
I know TUL voted no.

 

[scorpion 2]

The 35% maintenance cost that can be outsourced and no specific language attached that determines what expenses can be considered as cost will make it impossible to calculate or prove that we have reached the limit.  We already see the same scenario happening here that every other mechanic had to deal with when defending poor scope language.  
 
We also know that the IBT went door to door selling snake oil to the laid off mechanics that lost their jobs because of the IAM negotiated scope clause. The teamsters are world class at selling themselves and when they promise they will get your job back and put you into their pension fund who wouldn't sign a card. How many that signed a card are working again? I'm thinking none.  

 

[scorpion 2]

84 cents an hour over two years after giving up 5 bucks in one shot in 2003 is missing out? What about throwing seniority out the door and starting age based contract scenarios? We dodged an ugly bullet in 2010 and refused to sell our souls for a few holidays and a smoke and mirror pay scale formula brother and the membership for once saw it for Trojan horse that it was.

 

[Overspeed]

84 cents an hour over two years after giving up 5 bucks in one shot in 2003 is missing out? What about throwing seniority out the door and starting age based contract scenarios? We dodged an ugly bullet in 2010 and refused to sell our souls for a few holidays and a smoke and mirror pay scale formula brother and the membership for once saw it for Trojan horse that it was.

 
Again, how are you better off now because you voted no? You are more dignified now? I don't want scraps either but the way I viewed it was that we knew the BK was coming. Every indication was that AMR was going to pull the trigger. Some saw it as a threat, others thought it was true. My point is that the contingency plan after voting no had a low probability of success. That situation played out, AMR filed BK, and now we have less than before.

 

[1AA]

 
Again, how are you better off now because you voted no? You are more dignified now? I don't want scraps either but the way I viewed it was that we knew the BK was coming. Every indication was that AMR was going to pull the trigger. Some saw it as a threat, others thought it was true. My point is that the contingency plan after voting no had a low probability of success. That situation played out, AMR filed BK, and now we have less than before.

Have you tried selling this point of view to your break room buddies? Your not convincing anyone here on this forum other than you are in a desperation mode to convince us to give the TWU another shot for the final flush of our careers down the toilet.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

 
At UAL we all know the IAM started it but AMFA promised the membership there that they if they voted no on the IAM TA and brought in AMFA they would get a better deal. Instead AMFA completed the roll over in BK. OV said himself that AMFA members at UAL would have gotten a worse deal risking abrogation in court. Little said the same thing and he is the bad guy because you have selective hearing. Grow up and realize AMFA could not and would not have been able to get a better deal than the TWU did at AA.

 
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
 
The last IAM mechanics contract gave away our overhauls before AMFA was ever voted on the property.
 
I know you're desperate to prop up your precious TWU but your grade school attempts to rewrite UAL history isn't helping

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
 
The last IAM mechanics contract gave away our overhauls before AMFA was ever voted on the property.
 
I know you're desperate to prop up your precious TWU but your grade school attempts to rewrite UAL history isn't helping

oh no,  overspun knows everything and pokes at people who use their real names but he hides behind an alias and we are suppose to give credabilty to a coward. If he is so sure of what he says then bring your philosophy to the floor personally, bring anyone you want and sell it to any line station.  I would laugh my ass off watching that.  Overspun you speak so strongly behind the computer.  Tell us who you are and then we can move forward. I am tired of arguing with no name you.

 

[swamt]

 
At UAL we all know the IAM started it but AMFA promised the membership there that they if they voted no on the IAM TA and brought in AMFA they would get a better deal. Instead AMFA completed the roll over in BK. OV said himself that AMFA members at UAL would have gotten a worse deal risking abrogation in court. Little said the same thing and he is the bad guy because you have selective hearing. Grow up and realize AMFA could not and would not have been able to get a better deal than the TWU did at AA.

You still do not prove that it was AMFA that allowed the outsourcing.  It was in fact the IAM that nego it, period.  Same thing happened at SWA.  And the very same thing WILL happen at AA when AMFA gets voted in.  BTW, pls keep posting, your doing a great job for the twu, or rather AMFA...

 

[swamt]

 
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
 
The last IAM mechanics contract gave away our overhauls before AMFA was ever voted on the property.
 
I know you're desperate to prop up your precious TWU but your grade school attempts to rewrite UAL history isn't helping

100% correct.  O/S just will not admit it...

 

[Bob Owens]

Basically what you are saying is that with Little and Videtich running the show we should not have expected a contract that brings us anywhere near what our peers have and should have accepted a zero cost (to the company) contract, seven years after rolling over and giving the company a deal that would net them in excess of $2.1 Billion in concessions from us,(that's $2.1 billion out of our pockets into theirs, that we should have agreed to new concessions and continue to give them in excess of $310 million a year in concessions when they were projecting profits), because with Little and Videtich running the show things can only get worse.
 
Show me an example of where after four years of talks, two years of mediation and a rejected TA the NMB did not, upon request, release the parties. You claim the NMB will not release anyone if its going to eventuate in a stike, then explain this:
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/13/business/13air.html?_r=0
 
The NMB is part of a process, its not their job to weigh in and make determinations on what impact a strike will have, that's up to elected people in the government, first the President, then the Congress. Their job is to mediate, and when they feel mediation has not helped they step out, which is exactly what they did at AA in the summer of 2011. They said they did not want to waste government resources on talks between us because it would not help. It was Little and Videtich that said they wanted to continue talks and not request a release and they brought in Fleet service to make sure the vote passed.
 
As far as the IAM not being released at US, did they bring back the companys last offer to the membership? Do they really want to be released or did they just throw that out there to make their members believe they are fighting? Lets face it, you don't hear a damn thing about it. No picket lines in major cities, maybe out in a cornfield in South Carolina but nothing in NY, PHL LAX etc, nothing in the news, nada. If they really wanted a release they would be making some noise about it.

 

[700UW]

They did picket PHL, CLT, PHX and DC where US has a major presence.
 
And there has been a work to rule campaign which was done during critical travel periods.
 
The company HASNT presented a last and final offer to the IAM nor the NMB, and as you know the past two months progress has been made.
 
Rumor has it that M&R CBA is nearly finished but the IAM is waiting on ALL THREE Groups to have a CBA.
 
And no one picketed in a middle of a field in SC.
 
What is your problem?
 
And the three negotiating committees as of last night are still in DC.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well its the quietest picket in history. Not one major media organization picked up on it.
 
I don't know that progress has been made, I've only heard you and Parker say progress has been made but you have never given any details or defined what you mean by progress.
 
Why aren't you guys involving the TWU in these secret silent pickets? Whatever you get will affect joint negotiations. You are under Section 6, which is a fairer arena than the joint negotiations where we have even less leverage because there is zero chance of self help if the company refuses to bargain.  We could set up pickets in cities where US does not have as much of a presence. You want to have an association with us, well now would be the perfect time to show how we can work together, or not. Problem is guys aren't likely to show up and picket for something when they don't even know what you are asking for.
 
I spoke to Jackson? At the shareholders meeting, he said that it wouldn't be right to pay the US guys more than the AA guys so that's why they haven't come to an agreement, I said I'm an AA guy and I would be OK with them making more than us, the more the better, he should too because then it would help bring in a joint agreement that much quicker. I told him that I look at the US/IAM deal as a precursor of what the Joint agreement will look like because our agreement sucks in its entirety, that we had the worst deal in the industry and since we are now the biggest we should have the best.  Parker admitted that our contracts suck. I hope you guys are not buying into false promises that once we get into Joint negotiations they will be willing to deal, because they wont. They will be working off the APA and the APFA deals with very minor improvements because they are already up to industry standards, both our contracts suck, even by industry standards, when we walk into Joint talks they will only be willing to improve our crappy deals proportionately to what they improved the Pilots and Flight attendants deals which wont be much. In the end that means we still would have the worst deal in the industry and they will likely try and tack on a few more years like they have done to you guys since 2002.
 
So lets see the M&R deal? Or is it a secret that only the company and IAM leadership are allowed to know about?