Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[Overspeed]

C'mon Overspeed, now you're attacking the lawyers.  Really?  You say give Gary P. a chance, even he could have a chance with the AMFA.  The thing about the AMFA is that if the leadership fails, they get voted out.  No cushy International type positions to hand out as rewards for screwing the membership.  Sounds a lot better to most of us AMTs!N

 
Not an attack, just the facts. You are willing to try to join a union that chooses and stays with an awful law firm, the National had to rerun an election because of severe irregularities, lost 80% of their membership over the last 15 years, can't win a contract with the most consistently profitable airline with its "professional negotiators", gives one time pension deals to its top officer after he leads thousands off a cliff to unemployment, and rolls over at the first sign of trouble in BK court with UAL.
 
And that's better than what you have now? Ok

 

[FWAAA]

Desperation? Hardly. Point is you are so deperate to rid yourselves of the "terrible TWU" that you would take a union that is so flawed and has such an awful track record. If you ask me, going to AMFA will finish the job Carty started in 2003 with the concessions, destroying the organized labor at AA.

The only organized labor group that's been "destroyed" at AA are the employees who have been "represented" by the worthless union.   The pilots and flight attendants maintained industry-leading compensation for years until their bankruptcy-imposed cost reductions in 2012.  Their contracts imposed higher costs on AA than the pilots and FAs at the other legacies.    
 
The losers at AA?   The work group whose pay and benefits have lagged the industry for many years?     They have one thing in common, and that's the Transport Workers Union.
 
Still harping about Carty?    Time to look away from the rear view mirror and look forward.   2003 was a long, long time ago.   

 

[Overspeed]

The only organized labor group that's been "destroyed" at AA are the employees who have been "represented" by the worthless union.   The pilots and flight attendants maintained industry-leading compensation for years until their bankruptcy-imposed cost reductions in 2012.  Their contracts imposed higher costs on AA than the pilots and FAs at the other legacies.    
 
The losers at AA?   The work group whose pay and benefits have lagged the industry for many years?     They have one thing in common, and that's the Transport Workers Union.
 
Still harping about Carty?    Time to look away from the rear view mirror and look forward.   2003 was a long, long time ago.   

 
I agree, 2003 was a long time ago. You would not be lagging if you had taken the 2010 deal. You would have been making $38 top out in 2014 with full pay SK, 8 holidays at 2X, and the week of VC back but you backed the vote no coalition. Since we are the union and we voted no then are we totally worthless? I think not.
 
We were hoodwinked! bamboozled! We didn't land in BK, BK landed on us! Thanks vote no coalition with all your laughable videos giving us false information. BK was real and we had no chance of getting released. Voting no made our position worse going in to BK, not better. That's not the TWU Int'l that mislead you, it was your line local presidents telling you keep voting no because the deals will progessively get better and if they don't...at least we will know. Guess what? Now we know that the vote no coalition was so wrong and out played. Look at your paycheck and you will know.

 

[Slopoke]

 
I agree, 2003 was a long time ago. You would not be lagging if you had taken the 2010 deal. You would have been making $38 top out in 2014 with full pay SK, 8 holidays at 2X, and the week of VC back but you backed the vote no coalition. Since we are the union and we voted no then are we totally worthless? I think not.
 
We were hoodwinked! bamboozled! We didn't land in BK, BK landed on us! Thanks vote no coalition with all your laughable videos giving us false information. BK was real and we had no chance of getting released. Voting no made our position worse going in to BK, not better. That's not the TWU Int'l that mislead you, it was your line local presidents telling you keep voting no because the deals will progessively get better and if they don't...at least we will know. Guess what? Now we know that the vote no coalition was so wrong and out played. Look at your paycheck and you will know.

 
 
 
 
Who knows how it really would have turned out. It's time to move on and get a union that will not steer members to the benefit of the union.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
I agree, 2003 was a long time ago. You would not be lagging if you had taken the 2010 deal. You would have been making $38 top out in 2014 with full pay SK, 8 holidays at 2X, and the week of VC back but you backed the vote no coalition. Since we are the union and we voted no then are we totally worthless? I think not.
 
We were hoodwinked! bamboozled! We didn't land in BK, BK landed on us! Thanks vote no coalition with all your laughable videos giving us false information. BK was real and we had no chance of getting released. Voting no made our position worse going in to BK, not better. That's not the TWU Int'l that mislead you, it was your line local presidents telling you keep voting no because the deals will progessively get better and if they don't...at least we will know. Guess what? Now we know that the vote no coalition was so wrong and out played. Look at your paycheck and you will know.

You can thank the "vote Yes" coalition and the TWU paidshop stewards with our union dues to run around Tulsa telling their members to vote "YES" based on fear and they did not even read the contract or understand what they were giving up.  Look at how pissed the TULSA members are right now that the company is running all over them while the TWU stands by and says nothing but they can do that.  If they knew then what they know now i bet more members would have voted "NO".  But thats the TWU way as quoted by many on the floor.  

 

[Chuck Schalk]

You can thank the "vote Yes" coalition and the TWU paidshop stewards with our union dues to run around Tulsa telling their members to vote "YES" based on fear and they did not even read the contract or understand what they were giving up.  Look at how pissed the TULSA members are right now that the company is running all over them while the TWU stands by and says nothing but they can do that.  If they knew then what they know now i bet more members would have voted "NO".  But thats the TWU way as quoted by many on the floor.  
 
"BK landed on us" you say?  what s cop out!    this so called BK was plotted against the employees it did not just land.  The only one who suffered from this BK was the employees as stated in several articles.  what BK just lands and pays their creditor back 100% .  For anyone to say something so foolish as the" BK Landed on us" is a fool, misinformed, or backing the company.  This BK rewarded management and wall street and we suffer for years to come.  The TWU, AFL/CIO and the transporft trades should be hopping mad at the sham the company has done and will continue to do to their union members!   where is the strength and support?  there is none, all alot of hot air and selling points is all it is.

 

[Overspeed]

 

You can thank the "vote Yes" coalition and the TWU paidshop stewards with our union dues to run around Tulsa telling their members to vote "YES" based on fear and they did not even read the contract or understand what they were giving up.  Look at how pissed the TULSA members are right now that the company is running all over them while the TWU stands by and says nothing but they can do that.  If they knew then what they know now i bet more members would have voted "NO".  But thats the TWU way as quoted by many on the floor.  
 
"BK landed on us" you say?  what s cop out!    this so called BK was plotted against the employees it did not just land.  The only one who suffered from this BK was the employees as stated in several articles.  what BK just lands and pays their creditor back 100% .  For anyone to say something so foolish as the" BK Landed on us" is a fool, misinformed, or backing the company.  This BK rewarded management and wall street and we suffer for years to come.  The TWU, AFL/CIO and the transporft trades should be hopping mad at the sham the company has done and will continue to do to their union members!   where is the strength and support?  there is none, all alot of hot air and selling points is all it is.

 
Keep whining about how the law is unfair. I know it's unfair but the point is you and all your vote no coalition people either were too stupid to realize how unfair the law was to labor or you were really that out plated by Brundage and company. Either way, the members did get screwed with no thanks to you and your youtube video stars.

 

[FWAAA]

We were hoodwinked! bamboozled! We didn't land in BK, BK landed on us! Thanks vote no coalition with all your laughable videos giving us false information. BK was real and we had no chance of getting released. Voting no made our position worse going in to BK, not better. That's not the TWU Int'l that mislead you, it was your line local presidents telling you keep voting no because the deals will progessively get better and if they don't...at least we will know. Guess what? Now we know that the vote no coalition was so wrong and out played. Look at your paycheck and you will know.

AA did not file for Ch 11 protection because of anything the AMTs did or didn't do.   AA was going to file for bankruptcy reorganization regardless of how the AMTs voted on the 2010 proposal.   AA spent 2010 and 2011 getting its ducks in a row for a Ch 11 filing, like borrowing as much as its lenders would permit against its section 1110-eligible aircraft.   The signs were obvious to anyone who was paying attention.  
 
AA filed for Ch 11 protection to jam more efficient contracts down the throats of the pilots and FAs.   Obviously, since AA was in bankruptcy, management availed itself of the chance to flush away any other inefficiencies, like the TWU agreement's very low outsourced ASM cap.
 
It's true that AA did not demand large hourly pay rate reductions in Ch 11;   in fact, it didn't propose paycuts for the TWU-represented groups that ratified their 2010 TAs.  

Whether or not the AMTs would have been better off had they ratified the 2010 proposal is irrelevant when considering the current issue:    whether or not they'd be better off now and in the future if they fired the TWU.  
 
If the AMTs fire the TWU by voting for AMFA, then there should be debate about whom should lead AA's AMFA local(s), and perhaps the "vote NO" coalition shouldn't be selected.   But IMO, that debate doesn't have anything to do with replacing the TWU with a democratic craft union like AMFA.
 
Maybe some AMTs would have fared better if they'd voted away their retiree medical prefunding in exchange for higher hourly pay in 2010.   IMO, that's an issue on which nobody will ever agree.    
 
What AA's AMTs can agree on is that firing the worthless union won't make them any worse off than they are now, and it's likely to make them better off in the future.   

 

[Overspeed]

AA did not file for Ch 11 protection because of anything the AMTs did or didn't do.   AA was going to file for bankruptcy reorganization regardless of how the AMTs voted on the 2010 proposal.   AA spent 2010 and 2011 getting its ducks in a row for a Ch 11 filing, like borrowing as much as its lenders would permit against its section 1110-eligible aircraft.   The signs were obvious to anyone who was paying attention.  
 
AA filed for Ch 11 protection to jam more efficient contracts down the throats of the pilots and FAs.   Obviously, since AA was in bankruptcy, management availed itself of the chance to flush away any other inefficiencies, like the TWU agreement's very low outsourced ASM cap.
 
It's true that AA did not demand large hourly pay rate reductions in Ch 11;   in fact, it didn't propose paycuts for the TWU-represented groups that ratified their 2010 TAs.  

Whether or not the AMTs would have been better off had they ratified the 2010 proposal is irrelevant when considering the current issue:    whether or not they'd be better off now and in the future if they fired the TWU.
 
If the AMTs fire the TWU by voting for AMFA, then there should be debate about whom should lead AA's AMFA local(s), and perhaps the "vote NO" coalition shouldn't be selected.   But IMO, that debate doesn't have anything to do with replacing the TWU with a democratic craft union like AMFA.
 
Maybe some AMTs would have fared better if they'd voted away their retiree medical prefunding in exchange for higher hourly pay in 2010.   IMO, that's an issue on which nobody will ever agree.    
 
What AA's AMTs can agree on is that firing the worthless union won't make them any worse off than they are now, and it's likely to make them better off in the future.   

 
I completely agree that AMR was going to file BK regardless of what M&R voted. If we had voted yes it would have narrowed down the scope of changes needed in 1113 though. Pay would have not been an issue. Outsourcing and pension would have however.
 
If past AMFA elections at the Nat'l end up like last time then expect Key to protect his position somehow. AMFA Nat'l had to rerun the election last time because of voting irregularities. Some AMFA blogs blame Key of rerunning the election to keep his guys in which didn't work when the DOL got involved.
 
And firing the worthless union (AMFA) at UAL is what they did and you are right, an industrial union prevented more work from being outsourced unlike AMFA did when they were over UAL M&R. So is that the plan? Bring in AMFA, lose overhaul, and then go back to an industrial union like UAL? Ok

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Overspun,  you are a broken record.  You keep saying "AMFA will give up overhaul".  That is what you say nobody else.  Lets get it straight, AMFA at southwest is fighting for and won an arbitration case to bring another line overhaul into Southwest. Why do you keep saying AMFA wants to give up overhaul when thay are fighting to get more?
You are a spinner just like your alias name overspun.  Your opinion is politically minded and does not reflect the reality.
 
If anything, the TWU is leading the way to outsourcing. look at all the work going out the door.  Keep in mind we gave concessions to keep the pension, system protection, retire medical, and more but mostly to keep from outsourcing work and all that is gone so we lost everything under the TWU watch.
 
The TWU is overall "the leading concessionary Union"  
 
If you don't believe me, just ask anyone on the floor they feel the same way
 
FYI: the TWU pushed "YES" votes on the concessiuonary agreements and with the outsourced work language.  They are as much to blame for the outsourcing as members being told to vote yes

 

[Vortilon]

Overspeed, you know - for posing as an everyday AA AMT based at DFW - you sure sound a lot like a TWU International politician (liar).   Do you rant against the AMFA in your breakroom?  Yeah, I doubt it.  You would be a pariah amongst your peers.  Your BS; plain and simple, reeks of desperation to hang on to your beloved corrupt communist organization -  the TWU.   No real AA AMT would give a rats a$$ for the TWU getting the boot.  Your feigned concern over losing overhaul is more than obvious.  We are all, on to your line of BS.  The tired diatribes against the AMFA are not getting any traction.  You have no credibility!

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Overspeed, you know - for posing as an everyday AA AMT based at DFW - you sure sound a lot like a TWU International politician (liar).   Do you rant against the AMFA in your breakroom?  Yeah, I doubt it.  You would be a pariah amongst your peers.  Your BS; plain and simple, reeks of desperation to hang on to your beloved corrupt communist organization -  the TWU.   No real AA AMT would give a rats a$$ for the TWU getting the boot.  Your feigned concern over losing overhaul is more than obvious.  We are all, on to your line of BS.  The tired diatribes against the AMFA are not getting any traction.  You have no credibility!

 Overpseed should be a man and finally say who he is and stop hiding behind an alias then again that is typical of the TWU to hide behind everyone else and point fingers. 

 

[1AA]

 
I completely agree that AMR was going to file BK regardless of what M&R voted. If we had voted yes it would have narrowed down the scope of changes needed in 1113 though. Pay would have not been an issue. Outsourcing and pension would have however.
 
If past AMFA elections at the Nat'l end up like last time then expect Key to protect his position somehow. AMFA Nat'l had to rerun the election last time because of voting irregularities. Some AMFA blogs blame Key of rerunning the election to keep his guys in which didn't work when the DOL got involved.
 
And firing the worthless union (AMFA) at UAL is what they did and you are right, an industrial union prevented more work from being outsourced unlike AMFA did when they were over UAL M&R. So is that the plan? Bring in AMFA, lose overhaul, and then go back to an industrial union like UAL? Ok

Amazing that you actually believe your crap. Good thing 99% of us on this board are exposing the TWU lies and pushing to better ourselves and our profession. You would be more affective if you walked around all the break rooms and tried to sell your lies face to face. But you can not face the guys in person because you would be laughed right out to the parking lot. Go ahead and continue, we all need a good laugh.
I believe this is the part where you reply about NWA again and their failures or is it how bad of a job Lee Seham did. Maybe how UAL booted AMFA out for the corrupt Teamsters.

 

[scorpion 2]

Overspeed
 
How much of a raise would an AMT at an overhaul base received in the 2010 debacle?  How many on the line would have gotten the top pay rate? You make that 2010 deal sound like we missed out on something worth a sh!t.  One thing it would have done is set a new precedent on removing seniority as a basis for getting or keeping benefits. I know members that had 20 years seniority and under 50 that were going to get screwed on their retiree med compared to someone that had 10 years seniority and was over 50.  What would the next contract be like? Everyone over 55 gets a 10 dollar an hour raise and everyone under 55 gets a 10 dollar an hour pay cut? Its one thing to have an early out voted on in a contract and paid for by reduced pay and benefits to those staying or sticking it to the new hires that are not there to defend themselves but to expect active employees to cannibalize each other was to much for the membership to stomach. You blaming the no vote on a small group of members doesn't give credit to everyone else that saw through the BS in that rag of a contract. Was it just too much on the twu to at least get the same holidays as the non union employees? That whole thing wasn't worth voting on and if I had the chance to vote again I would vote the same way "NO".

 

[Bob Owens]

I agree, 2003 was a long time ago. You would not be lagging if you had taken the 2010 deal. You would have been making $38 top out in 2014 with full pay SK, 8 holidays at 2X, and the week of VC back but you backed the vote no coalition. Since we are the union and we voted no then are we totally worthless? I think not.
 
We were hoodwinked! bamboozled! We didn't land in BK, BK landed on us! Thanks vote no coalition with all your laughable videos giving us false information. BK was real and we had no chance of getting released. Voting no made our position worse going in to BK, not better. That's not the TWU Int'l that mislead you, it was your line local presidents telling you keep voting no because the deals will progessively get better and if they don't...at least we will know. Guess what? Now we know that the vote no coalition was so wrong and out played. Look at your paycheck and you will know.

We voted no in August of 2010. Typically after an NMB mediated TA gets rejected the parties are released. We never asked. Didn't even meet with the company till December. Negotiating committee passed a vote to ask for release but International still refused. Had we been released we most likely would have had a PEB negotiated settlement in place six months before AA, then like the pilots, flight attendants, stores, fleet service, dispatchers and sim techs we would have gone into BK in a good position. 2010 was a cost neutral contract, the 20% would have been the same but we would have had more. If it had passed, how do you suppose Tulsa and Title 2 would have approached getting to the 20%? Do you think they would have left the premiums that only AA line mechanics got? You seem to forget that Tulsa overwhelmingly voted NO in 2010.