Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[Bob Owens]

Why should some chick I want to date know exactly to the penny how much I make at my job? 
 

 
 
More motivation to get a better contract! Let the little head take over because the big one hasn't been doing too good of a job!

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
More motivation to get a better contract! Let the little head take over because the big one hasn't been doing too good of a job!

Yea but the little head is still in my pants and when I take it out she may enjoy the surprise? Anyway can't walk around the bar with it dangling. I'd probably get arrested.

 

[Bob Owens]

Taking out a bigger wallet would probably make more of an impression and dangling it about wont get you arrested either.

 

[scorpion 2]

Oh and just to expand on one other item. Don't think for a second that I'm siding with the Tulsa guys over the Line guys especially in NYC. The fact that a place like NYC doesn't have a COLA in comparison to Tulsa is shameful and almost criminal. Those who have sold you out to keep more for themselves in a place that is beyond cheap to live should be ashamed of themselves.

http://www.areavibes.com/cost-of-living-calculator/tulsa,+ok-vs-new+york,+ny/

You are in severe denial dude if you think the guys on the floor in Tulsa had anything to do with what was brought back to be voted on. If we had open negotiations, however boring, and even with the very remotest possibility of an outburst by a member we wouldnt have this as an issue. Its the back door deals that go on outside of the superficial negotiations with the local presidents that brought back non cola type of contracts. Tulsa has been used as a pawn to sell this crap for years through threats of job losses and outsourcing. The international has used fear tactics and the numbers in Tulsa to screw the line for as long as I have been in this union so you need to give credit where its due brother and look at how your own union has played the numbers game to sell concessions to all of us and especially the guys in high cost of living areas.   

 

[swamt]

I'm not knocking it but from a personal perspective I'm thinking for someone who goes to one it may be pretty boring though? I mean putting the current SWA negotiations in as the example. It's been going on for almost 2 years now. Negotiations have all sorts of parts and not every item being discussed is always the most exciting one, IE: Pay. And I'm sure that many times there are sessions that have yielded no results where the person observing may be pretty bored at the end of the day.

Now if someone was considering running for a position that would place them on one of those negotiating teams I could understand going. That would be a good gauge to see what happens there and if you'd want to be a part of it. Plus it could help you get votes as showing you're being proactive in the process.

Being an observer means you have no say or no voice in the process anyway. So again personally I just don't see the point of it?

Being an observer means you have no say or no voice in the process anyway. So again personally I just don't see the point of it?
 
Absolutely the opposite.  Observers are involved, and have say so with AMFA.  There have been many, many times where observers have changed wording and get more money by having a voice, it happens all the time.  With AMFA all observers are involved, do have a say and are a direct connections and involved with contract nego's as well as integration nego's which were evident during the SWA/AT nego's and could be in the AA/US integration talks.  Keep the TWU/IAM and they will do whatever they want to do not what the membership wants.  There is a very huge point of it that you are not seeing.  It does show a much more unity of the group to the company.  The company saw this unity in the SWA/AT integration nego's and directly changed their nego's with AT that supported the union and membership wishes.  Trust me it works very well indeed...

 

[scorpion 2]

Equity or stock any way you cut it is an unknown value. The only value is when you sell and then you either have long term or shot term capital gains that have to be paid. Short term (under 1 year) can be up to 40%, Long term is around 15%.

A pilot makes substantially more than a mechanic or a FSC. You received as a mechanic more equity than I did because your 17% give back is more than mine. Same with a pilot. They had incredibly rich retirement plans. Their A plan where from what I heard could amount to 2Mil for a top pay 777 Captain was done away with. So to "possibly" make up for that loss he was given more shares or a larger percentage. Again "Possibly" because the only real value is in when he sells.

Many clerks I know sold right out of the gate. So they got a total of let's say $5000 with NO capital gains because they never held it long enough to accumulate that. I actually bought a few thousand dollars worth of Usair shares just before the merger that converted over to AAL at about a $1 per share advance in the conversion. The value I've gained on that currently is about 105% SO FAR. Not counting the equity which has also increased in value.

The simplest way to put this is that everyone has the same pizza pie and 17% was taken off of that pie. But it's the pies that are all different sizes. So 17% for a pilot came off a much larger pie.

That dribble and 2 bucks will buy a cup of coffee but doesnt answer who got more equity which entitled us to more. 

 

[Bob Owens]

Equity or stock any way you cut it is an unknown value. The only value is when you sell and then you either have long term or shot term capital gains that have to be paid. Short term (under 1 year) can be up to 40%, Long term is around 15%.
A pilot makes substantially more than a mechanic or a FSC. You received as a mechanic more equity than I did because your 17% give back is more than mine. Same with a pilot. They had incredibly rich retirement plans. Their A plan where from what I heard could amount to 2Mil for a top pay 777 Captain was done away with. So to "possibly" make up for that loss he was given more shares or a larger percentage. Again "Possibly" because the only real value is in when he sells.
Many clerks I know sold right out of the gate. So they got a total of let's say $5000 with NO capital gains because they never held it long enough to accumulate that. I actually bought a few thousand dollars worth of Usair shares just before the merger that converted over to AAL at about a $1 per share advance in the conversion. The value I've gained on that currently is about 105% SO FAR. Not counting the equity which has also increased in value.
The simplest way to put this is that everyone has the same pizza pie and 17% was taken off of that pie. But it's the pies that are all different sizes. So 17% for a pilot came off a much larger pie.

With the concessions we all gave back the 17%, and yes for each work group the numbers were different, the TWU, because it had so many people gave more than the pilots not less, IIRC $315 million /yr for the pilots $320 million for TWU, but the Pilots also got nearly 15% of the equity stake while we got 4.8%. Unfortunately for the mechanics market rate considerations were not factored into the concessions and our legal team did not aggressively pursue that arguement. Had we kept the Me Too clause which Little gave away for a 4% increase we would have received the same equity as the pilots. So in other words as a group, for their dollars worth of concessions, and a dollars worth of concessions is a dollars worth of concessions no matter how you slice it, whether you have 100 members or 1000 members, whether you make $10k/year or $100K the value does not change, a dollar is still a dollar, they as a group got around three times as much equity as we did, as individuals much much more than that. Our Equity came out to around a years worth of additional concessions on top of the most concessionary deal in the industry while their equity came out to around three years worth of concessions on one of the better contracts in the industry. Even when considering their higher earnings, once you factor in the Equity per individual the dollar amount lost over the six year term between mechanics and pilots would be pretty close, depending on the performance of the stock mechanics may end up giving more than the pilots. There really is no comparison or justification, Little and his teAAm screwed us, there is no way around it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Another problem. The Me Too (that we lost once the merger went through along with the profit sharing) was rolled into the equity but what was the value based on? The contract was a six year deal worth $320 million a year or around $1.92 Billion.  Was the value based on 3% for six years or just 3% for one year?
 
Lets say the 3% difference would have bought us back double-time for the holidays, we would enjoy that every year, compounded by increases in pay but instead they added 1.7% in a one time equity grant. The Pilots did not give 20%, they gave 17% and still ended up with a lot more equity. So in reality we still gave 20%. They threw in a few extra shares, but we still gave 20% because we didn't get any of the concessions we gave to get to 20% back, concessions that compound for the company for six years.
 
We got screwed again, because even though the contract is a six year contract they based the cost savings annually. They pulled the same scam in 2003, but when we enter regular negotiations where we are demanding increases they cost it out over the life of the agreement. In other words they really won nearly $2billion in concessions from just the TWU. $2 billion .
 
In 2018 be prepared to hear the company pull the same crap they did for 2008 to 2011 where they said that we only gave them $310 million in concessions in 2003 but are demanding $750 million in 2010. one figure was annual, the other was for the whole term of the contract. Don and Little and their boy Donnelly (who reportedly left the TWU and went to work for management at SWA-surprised?) made sure those claims went unchallenged.

 

[scorpion 2]

Another problem. The Me Too (that we lost once the merger went through along with the profit sharing) was rolled into the equity but what was the value based on? The contract was a six year deal worth $320 million a year or around $1.92 Billion.  Was the value based on 3% for six years or just 3% for one year?
 
Lets say the 3% difference would have bought us back double-time for the holidays, we would enjoy that every year, compounded by increases in pay but instead they added 1.7% in a one time equity grant. The Pilots did not give 20%, they gave 17% and still ended up with a lot more equity. So in reality we still gave 20%. They threw in a few extra shares, but we still gave 20% because we didn't get any of the concessions we gave to get to 20% back, concessions that compound for the company for six years.
 
We got screwed again, because even though the contract is a six year contract they based the cost savings annually. They pulled the same scam in 2003, but when we enter regular negotiations where we are demanding increases they cost it out over the life of the agreement. In other words they really won nearly $2billion in concessions from just the TWU. $2 billion .
 
In 2018 be prepared to hear the company pull the same crap they did for 2008 to 2011 where they said that we only gave them $310 million in concessions in 2003 but are demanding $750 million in 2010. one figure was annual, the other was for the whole term of the contract. Don and Little and their boy Donnelly (who reportedly left the TWU and went to work for management at SWA-surprised?) made sure those claims went unchallenged.

The thing that I cant figure is how our 4.8% equity was agreed to four months before the pilots agreed to their deal but after their deal we get an extra 1.7% "me too" allocation and we are still at 4.8% as a whole. Did we get anything or just a slice of equity labeled "me too" and the other slices got smaller? 

 

[screwed again]

The thing that I cant figure is how our 4.8% equity was agreed to four months before the pilots agreed to their deal but after their deal we get an extra 1.7% "me too" allocation and we are still at 4.8% as a whole. Did we get anything or just a slice of equity labeled "me too" and the other slices got smaller? 

Thats a good question and it hasn't been answered sicnce you first asked. It has been danced around though. If it was 4.8% and we got 1.7% from the pilots deal four months later, why didnt the original percentage go up?

 

[swamt]

With the concessions we all gave back the 17%, and yes for each work group the numbers were different, the TWU, because it had so many people gave more than the pilots not less, IIRC $315 million /yr for the pilots $320 million for TWU, but the Pilots also got nearly 15% of the equity stake while we got 4.8%. Unfortunately for the mechanics market rate considerations were not factored into the concessions and our legal team did not aggressively pursue that arguement. Had we kept the Me Too clause which Little gave away for a 4% increase we would have received the same equity as the pilots. So in other words as a group, for their dollars worth of concessions, and a dollars worth of concessions is a dollars worth of concessions no matter how you slice it, whether you have 100 members or 1000 members, whether you make $10k/year or $100K the value does not change, a dollar is still a dollar, they as a group got around three times as much equity as we did, as individuals much much more than that. Our Equity came out to around a years worth of additional concessions on top of the most concessionary deal in the industry while their equity came out to around three years worth of concessions on one of the better contracts in the industry. Even when considering their higher earnings, once you factor in the Equity per individual the dollar amount lost over the six year term between mechanics and pilots would be pretty close, depending on the performance of the stock mechanics may end up giving more than the pilots. There really is no comparison or justification, Little and his teAAm screwed us, there is no way around it.

 
 

Another problem. The Me Too (that we lost once the merger went through along with the profit sharing) was rolled into the equity but what was the value based on? The contract was a six year deal worth $320 million a year or around $1.92 Billion.  Was the value based on 3% for six years or just 3% for one year?
 
Lets say the 3% difference would have bought us back double-time for the holidays, we would enjoy that every year, compounded by increases in pay but instead they added 1.7% in a one time equity grant. The Pilots did not give 20%, they gave 17% and still ended up with a lot more equity. So in reality we still gave 20%. They threw in a few extra shares, but we still gave 20% because we didn't get any of the concessions we gave to get to 20% back, concessions that compound for the company for six years.
 
We got screwed again, because even though the contract is a six year contract they based the cost savings annually. They pulled the same scam in 2003, but when we enter regular negotiations where we are demanding increases they cost it out over the life of the agreement. In other words they really won nearly $2billion in concessions from just the TWU. $2 billion .
 
In 2018 be prepared to hear the company pull the same crap they did for 2008 to 2011 where they said that we only gave them $310 million in concessions in 2003 but are demanding $750 million in 2010. one figure was annual, the other was for the whole term of the contract. Don and Little and their boy Donnelly (who reportedly left the TWU and went to work for management at SWA-surprised?) made sure those claims went unchallenged.

I wanna first thank you Bob, for being so honest.  It is great to see a TWU official or union member post the reality of what's really going on.  You have listed items above that the "members" had no control of and being swiped from their pockets.  The equity, as well as the profit sharing.  Yes this all happened during Littles control, and the TWU is currently trying to save face by Little moving on and someone else taking control.  This will not change the minds of the membership, they will never forget about the last 3 decades.  Please keep posting the truth, the members really need to hear it and coming from a current TWU official will help the membership as you have always done.

 

[Bob Owens]

The thing that I cant figure is how our 4.8% equity was agreed to four months before the pilots agreed to their deal but after their deal we get an extra 1.7% "me too" allocation and we are still at 4.8% as a whole. Did we get anything or just a slice of equity labeled "me too" and the other slices got smaller?

Are you sure you aren't confusing the 4% raise with the USAIR deal with the Equity stake?

 

[scorpion 2]

Are you sure you aren't confusing the 4% raise with the USAIR deal with the Equity stake?

We traded or should I say Jim Little swapped our profit sharing for the 4.3% raise because USAIR didnt have a profit sharing plan. Or a least our equivalent workforce at USAIR didnt have one. The 4.8% equity deal was completely different.  

 

[Chuck Schalk]

I still have not had a quantifiable answer to the question:
"I am asking for all the great accomplishments the TWU has done to enhance our careers in our class and craft over the last 30 years........just start with #1......
 
maybe the TWU can come up some at the anti-AMFA meeting in Dallas today?

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 American Airlines Group Inc Analyst Notes On May 23, 2014, American Airlines Group Inc (American Airlines) announced that Airfinance Journal has honored the airlines with Overall Deal of the Year award for its merger with US Airways; and Airline Treasury Team of the Year award for its work on a major aircraft order and other financing. American Airlines' CFO, Derek Kerr commented, "We couldn't be more proud of our treasury and finance teams for their navigation through one of the most complex reorganizations and mergers in the history of our industry. Their efforts resulted in the most successful restructuring in airline history, with a full recovery for creditors and a return for shareholders that was unprecedented. We've positioned the company well for the years ahead.
 
 
What was the employees rate of return....... oh thats right, it was negative!
 
we bore the whole BK and they did not even hide it!