Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[WeAAsles]

Oh and just to expand on one other item. Don't think for a second that I'm siding with the Tulsa guys over the Line guys especially in NYC. The fact that a place like NYC doesn't have a COLA in comparison to Tulsa is shameful and almost criminal. Those who have sold you out to keep more for themselves in a place that is beyond cheap to live should be ashamed of themselves.

http://www.areavibes.com/cost-of-living-calculator/tulsa,+ok-vs-new+york,+ny/

 

[scorpion 2]

 
 
1.7% in recognition that another labor group on the property received additional equity without additional concessions ( the “me too” agreements )
http://www.twu.org/Portals/0/AMRBK/aa_distribution_plan_powerpoint.pdf
 

So what labor group got more equity so we could get more?    1.7% more

 

[WeAAsles]

So what labor group got more equity so we could get more?    1.7% more

Equity or stock any way you cut it is an unknown value. The only value is when you sell and then you either have long term or shot term capital gains that have to be paid. Short term (under 1 year) can be up to 40%, Long term is around 15%.

A pilot makes substantially more than a mechanic or a FSC. You received as a mechanic more equity than I did because your 17% give back is more than mine. Same with a pilot. They had incredibly rich retirement plans. Their A plan where from what I heard could amount to 2Mil for a top pay 777 Captain was done away with. So to "possibly" make up for that loss he was given more shares or a larger percentage. Again "Possibly" because the only real value is in when he sells.

Many clerks I know sold right out of the gate. So they got a total of let's say $5000 with NO capital gains because they never held it long enough to accumulate that. I actually bought a few thousand dollars worth of Usair shares just before the merger that converted over to AAL at about a $1 per share advance in the conversion. The value I've gained on that currently is about 105% SO FAR. Not counting the equity which has also increased in value.

The simplest way to put this is that everyone has the same pizza pie and 17% was taken off of that pie. But it's the pies that are all different sizes. So 17% for a pilot came off a much larger pie.

 

[WeAAsles]

If you look again at the Equity powerpoint.Mechanics and FSC's are almost the same size. Around 7500 members in each group. Your group received 54% of the shares while FSC's got 37%. You got more because you make more. Same as the pilots.

It was 17% of TOTAL labor costs from each group that the equity is meant to try and recoup those losses.  

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Thus far no supporter of ANY major legacy airline union has been able to cite me any example of gains outside of carriers who did not either cease existence and lost all or went through the BK process and still survive today? Be that in alphabetical order. AFA, ALPA, AMFA, APA, APFA, CWA, IAM, IBT, TWU and others. As well as any non union counterparts. Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Continental, Northwest, Usair, United, Delta and American Airlines. 7 names down out of 10 in the musical chairs called the Airline Industry.

So who has done well then? Southwest Airlines. Not really a legacy airline but an airline that has been consistently PROFITABLE. Being profitable is what can get the people who work for them more and they have gotten more. Now some like to compare UPS and Fedex into the mix. #1 they never competed against a dozen other competitors and #2 they fly boxes not people. 

Now onto the Pension. Did we pay to keep it in 03? YES!!! Of course we did. Should we have? That's up to you to decide? Has any of the readers ever done the math on what your pension would have been if it had been frozen in 03? What if they had gone BK and it was then thrown on the PBGC for pennies on the dollar? We have some former Eastern and TWA people who work with us who would LOVE to have what we still do. They've told me what the PBGC has said they'll be getting when they retire. It's not pretty.
 
 
you are missing the main point...... what ever we kept in 2003, we paid for including the pension and in 2012 the company got the rest and more concessions.  the Bankruptcy concessions list of 2003 was completed in 2012. 
 
we the members of the TWU have not recieved anything without sacrifice on our part.  Everything came at a cost to us. The equity stake and the profit sharing is pennies on the dollar for what we gave up in concessions.  Our Careers  are gone under the guidance of the TWU.
 
again,   what has the Twu done to enhance our careers?
 
start with #1..........

 

[WeAAsles]

Thus far no supporter of ANY major legacy airline union has been able to cite me any example of gains outside of carriers who did not either cease existence and lost all or went through the BK process and still survive today? Be that in alphabetical order. AFA, ALPA, AMFA, APA, APFA, CWA, IAM, IBT, TWU and others. As well as any non union counterparts. Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Continental, Northwest, Usair, United, Delta and American Airlines. 7 names down out of 10 in the musical chairs called the Airline Industry.
So who has done well then? Southwest Airlines. Not really a legacy airline but an airline that has been consistently PROFITABLE. Being profitable is what can get the people who work for them more and they have gotten more. Now some like to compare UPS and Fedex into the mix. #1 they never competed against a dozen other competitors and #2 they fly boxes not people. 
Now onto the Pension. Did we pay to keep it in 03? YES!!! Of course we did. Should we have? That's up to you to decide? Has any of the readers ever done the math on what your pension would have been if it had been frozen in 03? What if they had gone BK and it was then thrown on the PBGC for pennies on the dollar? We have some former Eastern and TWA people who work with us who would LOVE to have what we still do. They've told me what the PBGC has said they'll be getting when they retire. It's not pretty.
 
 
you are missing the main point...... what ever we kept in 2003, we paid for including the pension and in 2012 the company got the rest and more concessions.  the Bankruptcy concessions list of 2003 was completed in 2012. 
 
we the members of the TWU have not recieved anything without sacrifice on our part.  Everything came at a cost to us. The equity stake and the profit sharing is pennies on the dollar for what we gave up in concessions.  Our Careers  are gone under the guidance of the TWU.
 
again,   what has the Twu done to enhance our careers?
 
start with #1..........

Are you really serious? After everything I put out there this is what you give me back Chuck? Back in the day you used to bat 1000 on these pages. What happened to you?

I gave you everything and you give me this silliness in return? What the hell is this nonsense?

You got something you want to sell. Well sell it! Otherwise if you really can't you should stop wasting people's time on here.

 

[Overspeed]

 

 
Now the real work will begin. Because AMR avoided Chapter 11 for so long, when it finally did file it did so with "fewer scheduled passengers carried and a smaller fleet than either the Delta-Northwest and United-Continental restructured and consolidated carriers or Southwest," the unsecured creditors' committee wrote in court filings. In its own court documents, AMR notes that it has the highest operating costs( overall costs, not M&R) today, compared with United, Delta and US Airways, and Derchin says union labor costs alone put AMR at an $800 million-a-year disadvantage to its rivals, meaning management must reduce labor costs, wages and pension obligations while increasing productivity.
 
From 2000 to 2010, AMR suffered almost $11.5 billion in net losses -- it made profits only in 2000, 2006 and 2007 -- because it had to keep prices competitive even while its costs were so much higher than rivals.
 
But not everyone is convinced. One source says that AMR likes to blame its problems on its labor costs, but what it doesn't publicize is that it does more maintenance on its planes in-house than other airlines, artificially inflating those expenses and keeping its vendor costs lower than its competitors.(just like the TWU outsourcing percentage)
 
did the TWU investigate why the company paid down their long term debt in the billions right before filing for BK to make their cash position look worse than it was........

Read more: AMR and the return of the bare-knuckled bankruptcy - The Deal Pipeline (SAMPLE CONTENT: NEED AN ID?) http://www.thedeal.com/content/restructuring/amr-and-the-return-of-the-bare-knuckled-bankruptcy.php#ixzz32ZA25onO
 

 

 
Doesn't matter. Would it have made a difference on whether or not we were forced in to more concessions in BK or had our CBA abrogated? No. What you point out is a very important fact. The vote no coalition was caught completely with its pants down. You all were totally outclassed and all the perceived knowledge you think you had was kicked to the curb. We had very little leverage yet the talk was that we should keep pushing the limits because we will never know what we could get of we don't go all the way. Fortunately enough people had enough of getting the Rochambeau from the company and took the last deal before they were able to complete the dismantling of our CBA. We seriously should have taken the 2010 deal and we would be much better off.
 
Face it, the company f'd us legally even though we all know it was a BS BK.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Doesn't matter. Would it have made a difference on whether or not we were forced in to more concessions in BK or had our CBA abrogated? No. What you point out is a very important fact. The vote no coalition was caught completely with its pants down. You all were totally outclassed and all the perceived knowledge you think you had was kicked to the curb. We had very little leverage yet the talk was that we should keep pushing the limits because we will never know what we could get of we don't go all the way. Fortunately enough people had enough of getting the Rochambeau from the company and took the last deal before they were able to complete the dismantling of our CBA. We seriously should have taken the 2010 deal and we would be much better off.
 
Face it, the company f'd us legally even though we all know it was a BS BK.

how do you explain the last 20 years....who screwed us then?  you can't blame the company for the TWU and voluntary concessions.
i missed the part about how the TWU has enhanced my career over the last 20 years?
 
start with #1........

 

[WeAAsles]

I missed the part how any legacy carrier union has done well since 9/11 and all the things that have happened since that day.

Start with #1.......

You got something you want to sell? Well sell it!!! Otherwise if you really can't you should stop wasting people's time on here.

 

[Vortilon]

I missed the part how any legacy carrier union has done well since 9/11 and all the things that have happened since that day.

Start with #1.......

You got something you want to sell? Well sell it!!! Otherwise if you really can't you should stop wasting people's time on here.

 
 
You and overspeed are funny.  It's over for your beloved TWU as far as representing the M&R at AA.  There is absolutely nothing you TWU guys could say or do to convince any AMT on the property that signing an AMFA authorization card would be a mistake!  The betrayal of the AMTs at AA by the TWU & the company is well documented.  August can't get here soon enough.  That last scam your douchebag union pulled off with the IBT & company was priceless.  Couple that with buying off your buddies at the NMB,  Everybody saw what you and your scumbag accomplices pulled off.  That is the one thing the TWU is good at, deception of their own dues paying members!

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Just sell us on the idea that the great powerful TWU with the assistance of the AFL/CIO, the transport trades division, and all their political clout have enhanced our careers over the last 20 years.  go back past 9-11 i said 20 years, better yet make it 30 years then.   I am sure over this time span you make a list...start with #1 and keep writing so we can understand why we should stay with the TWU.........it is a simple task for a great and powerful organization
 
 

 

[1AA]

how do you explain the last 20 years....who screwed us then?  you can't blame the company for the TWU and voluntary concessions.
i missed the part about how the TWU has enhanced my career over the last 20 years?
 
start with #1........

How about with post # 420 on the 22nd of May on page 35? His first responce was a deflection. Please tell us or sell us (Overspeed) on how great the TWU has been for the career of the AMT in this industry. It would be nice to hear your justification of all the concessions on AMT day.
 
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57088-article-4-industry-comparable-pay-rate/?p=1088601

 

[AANYER]

Chuck
 
WeAAsles nor Overspeed can tell any AMT at AA anything good that the TWU has done for them.  They would have to move heaven and earth to do so.  We just had an AMT 78 years old with 60 years of service in NY pass away.  This gentleman had 60 years of service between the TWU and the IAM at AA and TWA respectively.  However,  he could not retire because of all of the oppressive contracts under these two horrible unions.  God bless his soul.  You may ask why bring this up. I'm bringing this up because until he passed away this Tuesday, he indicated that he could not retire because he had little or no pension and or retirement.  He said that if he were to retire he would have received a minuscule $1,200 per month.  It's sad because they are many AMTs like this that simply cannot afford to retire because of these horrible contracts over the years.  The midnight shift is literally and figuratively a grave yard of zombies walking around at AA at night.  These guys are crying out at night to be released with dignity. So far this year they have been a plethora of elderly AMTs who have either had heart attacks and or strokes at work or shortly after leaving.  My perception is that this is exactly what AA wants so that they don't have to pay out full pension if the AMT dies.  More importantly,  the TWU has blood all over their hands with this, they are particularly responsible for the demise of our colleagues and or craft.  These bastards haven't any passion and or empathy for the AMTs.
 
AMFA Now More Than Ever

 

[WeAAsles]

 
 
You and overspeed are funny.  It's over for your beloved TWU as far as representing the M&R at AA.  There is absolutely nothing you TWU guys could say or do to convince any AMT on the property that signing an AMFA authorization card would be a mistake!  The betrayal of the AMTs at AA by the TWU & the company is well documented.  August can't get here soon enough.  That last scam your douchebag union pulled off with the IBT & company was priceless.  Couple that with buying off your buddies at the NMB,  Everybody saw what you and your scumbag accomplices pulled off.  That is the one thing the TWU is good at, deception of their own dues paying members!

You don't really understand something. I'm not a TWU rep and could care less who you want to represent you. It doesn't even have a tiny ounce of a concern to me in ANY way shape or form. The one's I do care about would be your hostages, your bargaining chips. Title 2!!!! Looking at AMFA contracts anyone in there right minds knows EXACTLY what you guys are going to do to them come negotiation time. Bye Bye Birdie! "They have NOTHING to do with my craft anyway, I don't care what happens to them" Basically my thought is set your hostages free and you can take your ship anywhere you want to sail it. You want AMFA because you know you can rid of everyone who doesn't turn a wrench and get more for you.

But another thing is IF you are going to go you're not going to leave with snake oil salesman selling you a bunch of soda water as a cure all tonic. You need to leave knowing full well the entire story and what you're getting yourself into. You need to leave and whoever you chose to go with STICK with them. Don't come looking for someone else to represent you in 5 years because who you picked wasn't all they were cracked up to be in YOUR minds.

The TWU will do just fine without you if that's what you really want. I personally don't want to see you go but your all grown ups and can make your own choices in life.

Happy AMT day BTW.

 

[WeAAsles]

Oh and BTW does any of this sound BEYOND familiar to any of you. Keep riding that Merry Go Round.

 
The mechanics' union had authorized a strike if the vote had failed, and its members voted down a previous contract agreement in January. But the union's leadership told them a ''No'' vote this time could produce worse terms than the ones negotiated.
 
''This vote signifies ratification but not acceptance,'' said AMFA Local 9 president Joseph Prisco, whose unit represents 52 percent of United mechanics - based in San Francisco and Hawaii.
 
''During the last several months this membership universally experienced a deep sense of anger provoked by the policies and actions of United management,'' he said. ''Any trust in senior management going forward must now be earned by the actions of senior management for UAL to operate as a successful company.''
 
The company released a statement saying it appreciated the approval vote. ''This is an important and necessary step in providing the cost savings United needs to finish its restructuring successfully,'' the airline said.
 
The new pay cuts, effective immediately, will come on top of 14 percent reductions made two years ago. Reduced benefits, such as sick days and holidays, would account for the rest of the labor savings.
 
A 5 percent defined-contribution pension plan is part of the new contract, replacing the former defined-benefits plan. The mechanics' union also will get $40 million in convertible notes upon United's exit from Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

http://www.aviationpros.com/news/10434968/united-airlines-mechanics-ratify-deal