Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[JABORD]

Your bio looks awesome!
 
http://www.mediate.com/mediator/details.cfm?id=15459

Hey Ovrspun, you've been played, player. See unlike you or I who hide behind the alias, Chuck puts it all out there for all to see. Now it's easy for us to believe that it will shield us from personal attacks as you've just demonstrated, yet I think Chuck will be provided the last laugh.
See a sharp guy like Chuck also knows that if you dangle the worm long enough in the murkey waters that carp like yourself and Reality reside in, at some point when you come off bottom to impress us with your wisdom the temptation will be too much for you. Your inability to provide any more responses of substance has delegated you to personal attack.
Credibility= Chuck (+1)
Ovrspun (0)
You took Chuck's worm. : )

 

[Overspeed]

Hey Ovrspun, you've been played, player. See unlike you or I who hide behind the alias, Chuck puts it all out there for all to see. Now it's easy for us to believe that it will shield us from personal attacks as you've just demonstrated, yet I think Chuck will be provided the last laugh.
See a sharp guy like Chuck also knows that if you dangle the worm long enough in the murkey waters that carp like yourself and Reality reside in, at some point when you come off bottom to impress us with your wisdom the temptation will be too much for you. Your inability to provide any more responses of substance has delegated you to personal attack.
Credibility= Chuck (+1)
Ovrspun (0)
You took Chuck's worm. : )

 
Okay

 

[1AA]

OK so you made your point on ONE thing you feel the TWU has done. While your on a roll and have everybody's attention can you please tell us the other accomplishments the TWU has done for our profession? Here is a list. Please tell us how well the TWU has done on these with the same enthusiasm.
 
1) Two Tier pay scale
2) Two Tier vacation scale
3) Five paid vacation days
4) Reduced Vacation multiplier
5) Elimination of double time O/T
6) Ten days of IOD pay
7) Elimination of retirement Prefunding
8) Elimination of Penalty hour
9) Frozen Pensions
10) Reduction in Shift Premiums
11) Elimination of Longevity pay
12) Elimination of meal allowance
13) Removal of Cap on Flex benefits
14) Transfer lockout from 6 months to 1 year
15) New Line qual test (virtually impossible to pass)
16) Elimination of Profit Sharing
 
This should be enough to keep you busy. I am sure others can add to the list in a timely manner. Please take my request seriously. We all want to know how these items have benefited the AMT at AA with the same enthusiasm you have about the ASAP program.
 
Thank you and good luck.

Can you please answer my request. I asked you nicely. You seem to be the only one here on this forum who defends all the TWU's decisions and actions so please answer my questions. Is this asking too much from someone with your TWU intellect?

 

[Deleted member 14439]

Can you please answer my request. I asked you nicely. You seem to be the only one here on this forum who defends all the TWU's decisions and actions so please answer my questions. Is this asking too much from someone with your TWU intellect?

Yes, Overspeed. Please respond, line by line, to these items 1AA listed. Tell us how the AA AMT is better off?

 

[Overspeed]

Can you please answer my request. I asked you nicely. You seem to be the only one here on this forum who defends all the TWU's decisions and actions so please answer my questions. Is this asking too much from someone with your TWU intellect?

 
Did you say I have intellect or was the combination of TWU and intellect a jab?
 
I have no problem listing items that the TWU has done for our careers and labor in general. I strongly believe given the diificult labor environment of the last 13 years the TWU has done very well. As far as gains? That is in my opinon nearly non-existent save a few examples that have bucked the trend. Namely profitable airlines like SWA and AS. Every union on the property at those airlines have done well and frankly it is not hard to ask for and get raises at an airline that is killing it financially. All the unions at SWA have done what they are supposed to do up until now. Now the SWA unions are under attack as pointed out by their CEO shortly after AMR filed BK. He knows it will be hard to compete and I for one and very much paying attention to what happens there.
 
That being said I would say that the TWU has enhanced our careers in the following ways. Kept the DB pension intact longer than any other union, protected more jobs than any other union and continues to do so to this day with the best lowest limits on outsourcing of any union, kept retiree medical intact for longer than any other airline, first ever wage adjustment provision negotiatied in a BK contract, shortest duration BK agreement when factoring in the early opener, first Just Policy - SMS program in the industry (enhancement to ASAP), and first A&P license protection program in the industry.
 
Now there will be attacks that many of these things were as a result fon concessions elsewhere and that is true. When you take our CBA in its totality we protect more jobs at a higher rate of pay then other unions who have chosen to trade jobs for pay. No one has it both ways. I strongly believe the TWU preserved the members interests as whole better than other unions. Keep in mind, AMR's BK filing referenced all the contracts that are referenced as "superior" to the TWU's at AA as being the reason AMR needed relief from the TWU CBA. So if the AMFA, IBT, and IAM CBAs were so much better than the TWU's at AA, why would the AMR BK attorney's use them? Think.

 

[1AA]

Still did not answer my question. I guess it is not worth the time punching the keyboard for a break down on the good of the concessions. Maybe some one else here can get you to answer my question for the good of all the posters and readers who come here for the latest news and to get educated.

 

[WeAAsles]

Page 6 down tells the story of why AA sought relief through bankruptcy for those who want to read AMR's petition to the court.

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/4_15463.pdf
 
The unions’ requests late yesterday added new complexity to American’s effort to win givebacks in union bargaining instead of asking a judge for authority to scrap existing contracts and impose new terms. American said last week that time is running out for consensual accords at the third-largest U.S. airline.
 
“All efforts to reach voluntary agreements through direct negotiations were exhausted,” Jim Little, Transport Workers Union international president, told members in a message. TWU, American’s biggest union, has been in talks with the Fort Worth, Texas-based carrier since 2006.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-09/american-airlines-unions-seek-u-s-arbitrator-in-bankruptcy-giveback-talks.html

 

 

[WeAAsles]

2. The Committee has concluded that there is no additional economic value beyond the current company offers that can be provided to the company's labor organizations without endangering AMR's reorganization and the rights and economic interests of non-union creditors and parties in interest. Accordingly, the Committee decided today that it will oppose any new efforts to transfer additional economic value from general unsecured creditors to American's unionized employees.

http://blogs.star-telegram.com/files/amr-creditors-committee-statement-re-section-1113-matters1.pdf

 

[WeAAsles]

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/3094_15463.pdf

 

[comatose]

Amfaman we've been over this even though quite a few of you disagree. Why should the dues of a bus driver go towards a suit that is solely to our benefit? You think a bus driver wants to defend our equity lawsuit. Ask the bus driver what he thinks on that one?

Tell you what I'll make you a bet. When this is all over the total cost to each member won't even come out to 1% total after the case is thrown out for no merit? We both work in MIA. Lunch in any restaurant of your choice.

Sorry but he definitely isn't AMFAMAN.

 

[WeAAsles]

Now the real work will begin. Because AMR avoided Chapter 11 for so long, when it finally did file it did so with "fewer scheduled passengers carried and a smaller fleet than either the Delta-Northwest and United-Continental restructured and consolidated carriers or Southwest," the unsecured creditors' committee wrote in court filings. In its own court documents, AMR notes that it has the highest operating costs today, compared with United, Delta and US Airways, and Derchin says union labor costs alone put AMR at an $800 million-a-year disadvantage to its rivals, meaning management must reduce labor costs, wages and pension obligations while increasing productivity.
 
From 2000 to 2010, AMR suffered almost $11.5 billion in net losses -- it made profits only in 2000, 2006 and 2007 -- because it had to keep prices competitive even while its costs were so much higher than rivals.
 
But not everyone is convinced. One source says that AMR likes to blame its problems on its labor costs, but what it doesn't publicize is that it does more maintenance on its planes in-house than other airlines, artificially inflating those expenses and keeping its vendor costs lower than its competitors.

Read more: AMR and the return of the bare-knuckled bankruptcy - The Deal Pipeline (SAMPLE CONTENT: NEED AN ID?) http://www.thedeal.com/content/restructuring/amr-and-the-return-of-the-bare-knuckled-bankruptcy.php#ixzz32ZA25onO

 

[WeAAsles]

This was one I really liked but since very few people read what Bills have been put out there and write to their elected officials to show support, this is what happened to it.

"Died (Referred to Committee) in a previous session of Congress"

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/s2092

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Did you say I have intellect or was the combination of TWU and intellect a jab?
 
I have no problem listing items that the TWU has done for our careers and labor in general. I strongly believe given the diificult labor environment of the last 13 years the TWU has done very well. As far as gains? That is in my opinon nearly non-existent save a few examples that have bucked the trend. Namely profitable airlines like SWA and AS. Every union on the property at those airlines have done well and frankly it is not hard to ask for and get raises at an airline that is killing it financially. All the unions at SWA have done what they are supposed to do up until now. Now the SWA unions are under attack as pointed out by their CEO shortly after AMR filed BK. He knows it will be hard to compete and I for one and very much paying attention to what happens there.
 
That being said I would say that the TWU has enhanced our careers in the following ways. Kept the DB pension intact longer than any other union,  (we gave industry leading concessions, so the members paid for it)  The company did not give us anything in 2003 that was not offset by something else)  protected more jobs than any other union and continues to do so to this day with the best lowest limits on outsourcing of any union,( percentages are the easiest to manipulate, our language allows for easy manipulation of the money) kept retiree medical intact for longer than any other airline (again we paid for it in concessions), first ever wage adjustment provision negotiatied in a BK contract, (what did we give to get that?...everything) shortest duration BK agreement when factoring in the early opener (that is to be proud of when the company got everything wanted who cares how short), first Just Policy - SMS program in the industry (enhancement to ASAP) (ASAP program is a good one), and first A&P license protection program in the industry. (not a bad but AMFA had fine protection and legal representation for their members)
 
Now there will be attacks that many of these things were as a result fon concessions elsewhere and that is true (so we agree on that one) .When you take our CBA in its totality we protect more jobs at a higher rate of pay then other unions who have chosen to trade jobs for pay. No one has it both ways. I strongly believe the TWU preserved the members interests as whole better than other unions. Keep in mind, AMR's BK filing referenced all the contracts that are referenced as "superior" to the TWU's at AA as being the reason AMR needed relief from the TWU CBA (you mean the 2003 almost BK that lowered the bar for the industry that came back to bite  the TWU) So if the AMFA, IBT, and IAM CBAs were so much better than the TWU's at AA, why would the AMR BK attorney's use them? Think.  ( yes.... think how they got there.......our 2003 the great concession thats how

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Now the real work will begin. Because AMR avoided Chapter 11 for so long, when it finally did file it did so with "fewer scheduled passengers carried and a smaller fleet than either the Delta-Northwest and United-Continental restructured and consolidated carriers or Southwest," the unsecured creditors' committee wrote in court filings. In its own court documents, AMR notes that it has the highest operating costs( overall costs, not M&R) today, compared with United, Delta and US Airways, and Derchin says union labor costs alone put AMR at an $800 million-a-year disadvantage to its rivals, meaning management must reduce labor costs, wages and pension obligations while increasing productivity.
 
From 2000 to 2010, AMR suffered almost $11.5 billion in net losses -- it made profits only in 2000, 2006 and 2007 -- because it had to keep prices competitive even while its costs were so much higher than rivals.
 
But not everyone is convinced. One source says that AMR likes to blame its problems on its labor costs, but what it doesn't publicize is that it does more maintenance on its planes in-house than other airlines, artificially inflating those expenses and keeping its vendor costs lower than its competitors.(just like the TWU outsourcing percentage)
 
did the TWU investigate why the company paid down their long term debt in the billions right before filing for BK to make their cash position look worse than it was........

Read more: AMR and the return of the bare-knuckled bankruptcy - The Deal Pipeline (SAMPLE CONTENT: NEED AN ID?) http://www.thedeal.com/content/restructuring/amr-and-the-return-of-the-bare-knuckled-bankruptcy.php#ixzz32ZA25onO
 

 

[FWAAA]

The company did not pay down its debt right before filing for Ch 11.   To the contrary, AA borrowed more money in the months leading up to the bankruptcy filing, as summarized by the linked article.   By filing with over $4 billion in cash,  AA did not have to beg lenders for DIP loans nor did it have to beg lenders for exit financing to pay off DIP loans.   Quite a different experience from UA's bankruptcy.