Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[FWAAA]

2012 AA pilots turned theirs down in bankruptcy and renegotiated with the company and settled for more.

That's a fanciful narrative, but it's misleading.  
 

Yes the pilots were given more equity and a larger 401 contribution but that was because their retirement A plan was terminated in BK. That was the one where they were able to receive a lump sum payout on their exit from the company. For some top pay Captains that amount would have been over a Million dollars.

Bullshit.   Don't make things up.     Why not stick to the facts?

The pilots rejected Horton's offer.   That much is factual.  
 
After the judge ruled that AA could abrogate their contract, the pilots settled for the same wages they had earlier rejected and the same 401k contribution (14%) that they had rejected.   
 
The improvements between what they rejected and what they ultimately got was the improved furlough protection (judge wouldn't let AA wipe that out entirely), less outsourcing (judge would not let AA have unlimited codesharing) and the A319s were included in the other single-aisle pay band (where AA had earlier wanted to pay A319 pilots less).   The other irmprovement over the rejected offer included a 76-seat limit on large RJs instead of the 79 seats that AA had offered.   As AA won't be giving the APA any 79-seat mainline planes to fly, this improvement is illusory.   
 
Parker then offered the pilots the 16% 401k contribution (and higher hourly wages) as enticement to support the merger.   
 
The pilots' equity (13.5%) was the same percentage that Horton offered them which they earlier rejected.
 
In short, it makes for a interesting tall tale that the pilots gained a lot by rejecting the LBFO from Horton, but the facts are that they settled for the same wages, the same 401k contribution and the same equity as they rejected earlier in the year.   

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAAsles
 
It has nothing to do with being part of any class, are lawyers/doctors/electricians/nurses
or any other work groups with a license of any kind forced into groups that as long as the group itself survives they should suffer. "NO" I knew you would as a TWU supporter come back with that. That is what the TWU says all the time.

I'm not the TWU and I do not speak for them. I'm an individual, blue collar American worker.
 
I don't feel your job is any less important than mine, its all part of the machine, I just want my cut of that machine and want the union of my choice to help me get that.
I don't want other work groups setting the table for my class and craft. 

That I understand. You feel you have more strength in only concentrating on your craft and class. I always wondered how the word "Class" got inserted into those thought patterns and who inserted it there ultimately?
 
Then why doesn't the TWU represent fireman/policeman/nurses/electricians/plumbers/truckers/longshore workers because they want to be in a union for their group they feel they can be better represented.

I believe they do represent card dealers in Vegas. And my friend who worked for Yellow Pages.com was represented by the IBEW.
 
They want to be with like minded people who understand and have been there doing the job and knows what it took to get there.

You mean they do not want to concern themselves with other people's supposed issues? I guess you don't subscribe to the American Melting Pot?
 
Please don't lump me into to a group that the TWU has said thinks it is better I have been in this industry TOOOO Long.

Who are you referring to? I don't consider myself better than you or that poor bastard being mistreated by the Walton Family.

 

[WeAAsles]

That's a fanciful narrative, but it's misleading.  
 
Bullshit.   Don't make things up.     Why not stick to the facts?

The pilots rejected Horton's offer.   That much is factual.  
 
After the judge ruled that AA could abrogate their contract, the pilots settled for the same wages they had earlier rejected and the same 401k contribution (14%) that they had rejected.   
 
The improvements between what they rejected and what they ultimately got was the improved furlough protection (judge wouldn't let AA wipe that out entirely), less outsourcing (judge would not let AA have unlimited codesharing) and the A319s were included in the other single-aisle pay band (where AA had earlier wanted to pay A319 pilots less).   The other irmprovement over the rejected offer included a 76-seat limit on large RJs instead of the 79 seats that AA had offered.   As AA won't be giving the APA any 79-seat mainline planes to fly, this improvement is illusory.   
 
Parker then offered the pilots the 16% 401k contribution (and higher hourly wages) as enticement to support the merger.   
 
The pilots' equity (13.5%) was the same percentage that Horton offered them which they earlier rejected.
 
In short, it makes for a interesting tall tale that the pilots gained a lot by rejecting the LBFO from Horton, but the facts are that they settled for the same wages, the same 401k contribution and the same equity as they rejected earlier in the year.   

Yes and their improvements came at the hands of others who wanted to purchase the home that they lived in. The Tax assessor (AA) was still demanding his payment. Doug Parker was just the one who made it a little easier to pay that bill.

However you sliced that pie originally, be it in 2, 4, 6 or 8 the pie remained the same size.

 

[Overspeed]

Being the first to JOIN an ASAP isn't the same as pioneering the ASAP!
 
By your own postings YOU freely admit that the TWU didn't JOIN the ASAP program til mid 1998, funny thing.......the ASAP program was formally standardized by the FAA in January 1997! 
 
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/23205
 
If the TWU pioneered the ASAP program why did take you a year and a half to JOIN?
 
Further, if the TWU "pioneered" the ASAP for mechanics in mid 1998, then how come the original Advisory Circular issued by the FAA in early 1997 has language in its example section clearly illustrating the FAA had already envisioned aircraft mechanics groups involvement over a FULL YEAR AND A HALF PRIOR TO THE TWU/Mechanics JOINING?
 
From FAA AC 120-66 dated January 8, 1997
 

 
Contrary to your continued blathering, I have the facts, and it is you that is trying to make yourself and your TWU feel better by your ridiculous attempts at aggrandizement.
 
The TWU@AA was the first mechanic group to negotiate an MOU under the ASAP. I've never disputed that.
 
That said JOINING the ASAP program a FULL YEAR AND A HALF after its formal introduction hardly qualifies them as "pioneers" of the program.
 
And your welcome

Agan, the concept was put in to actual use for the first time by the TWU at AA. The White House and FAA honored the APA and TWU for stepping up when no one else did. We pioneered the first working program for mechanics in the industry and that is a fact. Once the TWU at AA for mechanics all other unions used our members hard pioneering work to use as the basis for their programs and MOUs.

Again your welcome.

Using the Wright Brothers again because people came before and imagined, talked, and wrote about powered fligtht the Wrights did no pioneering work in aviation. Just because an AC was written and people discussed the concept as a good idea before does not devalue the pioneering efforts of our TWU members at AA.

It's okay to say thank you for the TWU blazing the path for the first ever working ASAP program for mechanics. But because you can't I will say this....you are welcome.

 

[swamt]

Agan, the concept was put in to actual use for the first time by the TWU at AA. The White House and FAA honored the APA and TWU for stepping up when no one else did. We pioneered the first working program for mechanics in the industry and that is a fact. Once the TWU at AA for mechanics all other unions used our members hard pioneering work to use as the basis for their programs and MOUs.

Again your welcome.

Using the Wright Brothers again because people came before and imagined, talked, and wrote about powered fligtht the Wrights did no pioneering work in aviation. Just because an AC was written and people discussed the concept as a good idea before does not devalue the pioneering efforts of our TWU members at AA.

It's okay to say thank you for the TWU blazing the path for the first ever working ASAP program for mechanics. But because you can't I will say this....you are welcome.

The only thing the TWU has pioneered at AA has been the concessions trains that have come thru AA since 1993 to current, maybe even since 1983.  
I see Overspeed still cannot post a single positive thing that the TWU hass done for the craft and class of the mechanics.  Keep posting OS your doing great...

 

[john john]

Can you site me any example of where a union has said no in a BK and come out ahead? Taking into account the worst possible recent scenario example Hostess. And no I don't believe AA would have went that route before you respond.

Here is a little history lesson for you


http://web.archive.org/web/20041030113039/www.cwa.net/PDFs/Management10-22-04proposal.pdf
Company to CWA 1113 (c) Proposal October 22, 2004
http://web.archive.org/web/20041013063944/www.cwa.net/PDFs/ManagementProposal.pdf

Transformation Plan Term Sheet
Company to CWA Comprehensive Transformation Proposal July 27, 2004

http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/15047-companys-latest-proposal-to-cwagarbage/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Communications+Workers+of+America+prepares+for+US+Airways+strike.-a0125572458
The CWA represents 6,000 ticket, reservation and gate agents at US Airways, the majority of whom voted to allow CWA President Morton Bahr to order a strike and select a strike date if US Airways cancels the union's contract through the bankruptcy courts.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050511082659/http://www.cwa.net/

Strike authorization vote by US Airways Passenger Service employees passes overwhelmingly: 86% approve, 14% disapprove...
11-10-2004
CWA represented US Airways agents and reps have voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike or other lawful job action in the event that management imposes concessions through the bankruptcy process without a vote of the employees. With strong showings from all locations and workgroups, the CWA Passenger Service local presidents counted the ballots today at CWA’s national headquarters in Washington, DC.
The final vote tally was 86% in favor of strike authorization and 14% opposed. Full details and explanation of the strike vote authorization process and procedures, including CWA strike benefits, is contained in the letter you received at your home address accompanying your strike authorization ballot.
The CWA local presidents immediately issued this statement: “Thank you, agents and reps, for giving us this show of strength and determination. We pledge to make every effort to reach a reasonable settlement with management – a settlement that can be ratified by a vote of the employees. Thank you for support.”
CWA Board Clears the Way for Possible Strike By US Airways Passenger Service Agents
11/30/2004
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The Communications Workers of America's national executive board voted unanimously to authorize strike action by 6,000 passenger service agents against US Airways, clearing the way for CWA's president to set a strike date.
The passenger agents earlier this month voted by 86 percent to authorize a strike against the airline in a membership referendum.
Meanwhile, CWA negotiators are continuing to meet this week with US Airways management in an attempt to reach a new labor settlement.
The airline has demanded devastating pay and benefit concessions from the agents and has petitioned the bankruptcy judge to throw out their union contract.
Abrogation of the contract would allow the agents to strike or engage in other job actions.
Agents Approve Contract at US Airways
12-23-04
Washington, D.C. - US Airways passenger service agents, members of the Communications Workers of America, have ratified changes to their contract with US Airways to help the troubled airline as it seeks to emerge from bankruptcy.
The settlement was approved by a 60 percent vote in an Internet and telephone ratification process under the aegis of the American Arbitration Association. The contract, covering about 6,000 active agents, is amendable beginning Jan. 1, 2012.
The bargaining committee of local union presidents recommended approval of the settlement, given the carrier's bankruptcy status and the past decision of the bankruptcy judge to allow US Airways to temporarily cut workers' wages by 21 percent and implement further benefit cuts while negotiations continued.
Those cuts will end as the new ratified agreement takes effect on Jan. 1.
This agreement reduces average wages by 12. 9 percent, an "improvement" over the 34 percent wage cut US Airways management was demanding in earlier bargaining.
CWA reaches tentative agreement with US Airways management... now members will vote on the contract...
12/02/2004
Washington, D.C. -- The Communications Workers of America has reached a tentative settlement with US Airways covering airport and reservations agents at the airline.
The agreement is subject to membership ratification. Materials and complete information on the proposed settlement will be sent to members' home addresses; members will vote electronically in an American Arbitration Association election process.
In the face of devastating demands for wage and benefit cuts and other concessions, the bargaining committee of CWA local union presidents and CWA staff was able to push back against some of the harsher and more excessive proposals made by US Airways management.
US Airways filed for bankruptcy protection on Sept. 12 and has petitioned to abrogate its union contracts unless the unions agreed to concessionary settlements.

 

[WeAAsles]

Here is a little history lesson for you


http://web.archive.org/web/20041030113039/www.cwa.net/PDFs/Management10-22-04proposal.pdf
Company to CWA 1113 (c) Proposal October 22, 2004
http://web.archive.org/web/20041013063944/www.cwa.net/PDFs/ManagementProposal.pdf

Transformation Plan Term Sheet
Company to CWA Comprehensive Transformation Proposal July 27, 2004

http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/15047-companys-latest-proposal-to-cwagarbage/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Communications+Workers+of+America+prepares+for+US+Airways+strike.-a0125572458
The CWA represents 6,000 ticket, reservation and gate agents at US Airways, the majority of whom voted to allow CWA President Morton Bahr to order a strike and select a strike date if US Airways cancels the union's contract through the bankruptcy courts.
http://web.archive.org/web/20050511082659/http://www.cwa.net/

Strike authorization vote by US Airways Passenger Service employees passes overwhelmingly: 86% approve, 14% disapprove...
11-10-2004
CWA represented US Airways agents and reps have voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike or other lawful job action in the event that management imposes concessions through the bankruptcy process without a vote of the employees. With strong showings from all locations and workgroups, the CWA Passenger Service local presidents counted the ballots today at CWA’s national headquarters in Washington, DC.
The final vote tally was 86% in favor of strike authorization and 14% opposed. Full details and explanation of the strike vote authorization process and procedures, including CWA strike benefits, is contained in the letter you received at your home address accompanying your strike authorization ballot.
The CWA local presidents immediately issued this statement: “Thank you, agents and reps, for giving us this show of strength and determination. We pledge to make every effort to reach a reasonable settlement with management – a settlement that can be ratified by a vote of the employees. Thank you for support.”
CWA Board Clears the Way for Possible Strike By US Airways Passenger Service Agents
11/30/2004
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The Communications Workers of America's national executive board voted unanimously to authorize strike action by 6,000 passenger service agents against US Airways, clearing the way for CWA's president to set a strike date.
The passenger agents earlier this month voted by 86 percent to authorize a strike against the airline in a membership referendum.
Meanwhile, CWA negotiators are continuing to meet this week with US Airways management in an attempt to reach a new labor settlement.
The airline has demanded devastating pay and benefit concessions from the agents and has petitioned the bankruptcy judge to throw out their union contract.
Abrogation of the contract would allow the agents to strike or engage in other job actions.
Agents Approve Contract at US Airways
12-23-04
Washington, D.C. - US Airways passenger service agents, members of the Communications Workers of America, have ratified changes to their contract with US Airways to help the troubled airline as it seeks to emerge from bankruptcy.
The settlement was approved by a 60 percent vote in an Internet and telephone ratification process under the aegis of the American Arbitration Association. The contract, covering about 6,000 active agents, is amendable beginning Jan. 1, 2012.
The bargaining committee of local union presidents recommended approval of the settlement, given the carrier's bankruptcy status and the past decision of the bankruptcy judge to allow US Airways to temporarily cut workers' wages by 21 percent and implement further benefit cuts while negotiations continued.
Those cuts will end as the new ratified agreement takes effect on Jan. 1.
This agreement reduces average wages by 12. 9 percent, an "improvement" over the 34 percent wage cut US Airways management was demanding in earlier bargaining.
CWA reaches tentative agreement with US Airways management... now members will vote on the contract...
12/02/2004
Washington, D.C. -- The Communications Workers of America has reached a tentative settlement with US Airways covering airport and reservations agents at the airline.
The agreement is subject to membership ratification. Materials and complete information on the proposed settlement will be sent to members' home addresses; members will vote electronically in an American Arbitration Association election process.
In the face of devastating demands for wage and benefit cuts and other concessions, the bargaining committee of CWA local union presidents and CWA staff was able to push back against some of the harsher and more excessive proposals made by US Airways management.
US Airways filed for bankruptcy protection on Sept. 12 and has petitioned to abrogate its union contracts unless the unions agreed to concessionary settlements.

Thank you John John. I actually like the CWA very much and think they have a ton of cajones that I wish everyone had. Too bad that there were so many that didn't want to engage in the full on merger that I feel would have made us immensely stronger in the future. Well that's now a part of the history books I guess.

Actually though in my original comment I used the word "Ahead". Even though under lesson you sited IMO a great example of a union that fought back and did a little better than some others in BK court, they still did not come out ahead in that process.

Remember the readers here are looking for an example that doesn't cite a 17% reduction or a 12.9% reduction. They are at the very least looking for an example of a 0% reduction and still maintaining ALL that they had prior to going through the court process.

That's also what I'm looking for and was looking for so I could join wholeheartedly the NO supporters that I begged to give me an example of. I never was given that example.

 

[Overspeed]

The only thing the TWU has pioneered at AA has been the concessions trains that have come thru AA since 1993 to current, maybe even since 1983.  
I see Overspeed still cannot post a single positive thing that the TWU hass done for the craft and class of the mechanics.  Keep posting OS your doing great...

 
And AMFA is welcome at SW for the TWU's hard work at establishing the basis for your aircraft mechanic ASAP program as well. You...are...welcome.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Agan, the concept was put in to actual use for the first time by the TWU at AA. The White House and FAA honored the APA and TWU for stepping up when no one else did. We pioneered the first working program for mechanics in the industry and that is a fact. Once the TWU at AA for mechanics all other unions used our members hard pioneering work to use as the basis for their programs and MOUs.

Again your welcome.

Using the Wright Brothers again because people came before and imagined, talked, and wrote about powered fligtht the Wrights did no pioneering work in aviation. Just because an AC was written and people discussed the concept as a good idea before does not devalue the pioneering efforts of our TWU members at AA.

It's okay to say thank you for the TWU blazing the path for the first ever working ASAP program for mechanics. But because you can't I will say this....you are welcome.

 
And again the TWU pioneered nothing.
 
As I've clearly shown, the ASAP program was in place for over a year and a half before the TWU/mechanics at American signed their MOU.
 
If you had any actual knowledge of the ASAP program beyond simple press releases, you would know that almost every airline operation flight, maintenance etc is unique, hence any new group be it pilot, mechanic, dispatcher etc is going to write an MOU based on the FAAs base template, not on some other airlines existing MOU. As you can clearly see here at the FAAs ASAP website.
 
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/memo_generator/
 
notice this part....

Automated Memorandum of Understanding Generator
If the TWU pioneered the program, why isn't there a mechanics only MOU generator? 
 
The TWU was merely the first mechanic group to sign on to a program that was already in existense, hence they "trailblazed" nothing.
 
I know having to educate you on the ASAP like this comes at the expense of your ignorance repeatedly being exposed  so I won't wait for your thank you.....
 
I'll just say .... you are welcome.

 

[Kev3188]

Chuck and Kev
 
Please don't misunderstand me, I don't and have never questioned the benefits of the ASAP program for mechanics.
 
The program we have here at UAL has more than proved its worth to our members.

No problem- I didn't see it that way at all.

 

[Overspeed]

 
And again the TWU pioneered nothing.
 
As I've clearly shown, the ASAP program was in place for over a year and a half before the TWU/mechanics at American signed their MOU.
 
If you had any actual knowledge of the ASAP program beyond simple press releases, you would know that almost every airline operation flight, maintenance etc is unique, hence any new group be it pilot, mechanic, dispatcher etc is going to write an MOU based on the FAAs base template, not on some other airlines existing MOU. As you can clearly see here at the FAAs ASAP website.
 
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/memo_generator/
 
notice this part....
Automated Memorandum of Understanding Generator
If the TWU pioneered the program, why isn't there a mechanics only MOU generator? 
 
The TWU was merely the first mechanic group to sign on to a program that was already in existense, hence they "trailblazed" nothing.
 
I know having to educate you on the ASAP like this comes at the expense of your ignorance repeatedly being exposed  so I won't wait for your thank you.....
 
I'll just say .... you are welcome.

 
Again...apparently everyone up to the President Clinton and FAA Secretary Jane Garvey recognizes the great work in being the first mechanic ASAP program in the industry. Regardless of what you say the TWU at AA signed the first MOU and its great members on the first committee created a working program. Our efforts trail blazed, piorneered, first to do it, whatever means that you are very welcome to reap the benefits of what the TWU did FIRST regardless of whether or not there was an AC in place. Just because we did not initiate the concept does not mean that the TWU did not blaze the trail for all mechanic ASAP programs. That is a fact again recognized all the way up to the White House that the TWU was the first mechanic ASAP program and you...are...welcome.
 
You ate crow because you did the normal misinformed AMFA thing and reacted before knowing the full facts.

 

[Overspeed]

 
And again the TWU pioneered nothing.
 
As I've clearly shown, the ASAP program was in place for over a year and a half before the TWU/mechanics at American signed their MOU.
 
If you had any actual knowledge of the ASAP program beyond simple press releases, you would know that almost every airline operation flight, maintenance etc is unique, hence any new group be it pilot, mechanic, dispatcher etc is going to write an MOU based on the FAAs base template, not on some other airlines existing MOU. As you can clearly see here at the FAAs ASAP website.
 
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/memo_generator/
 
notice this part....
Automated Memorandum of Understanding Generator
If the TWU pioneered the program, why isn't there a mechanics only MOU generator? 
 
The TWU was merely the first mechanic group to sign on to a program that was already in existense, hence they "trailblazed" nothing.
 
I know having to educate you on the ASAP like this comes at the expense of your ignorance repeatedly being exposed  so I won't wait for your thank you.....
 
I'll just say .... you are welcome.

 
Definition of pioneer is to originate or take part in the development of. In this case the TWU "took part in the development of" the first ever working ASAP program for mechanics. There were no AMFA reps at the White House being honored.
 
You are welcome

 

[Overspeed]

 
And again the TWU pioneered nothing.
 
As I've clearly shown, the ASAP program was in place for over a year and a half before the TWU/mechanics at American signed their MOU.
 
If you had any actual knowledge of the ASAP program beyond simple press releases, you would know that almost every airline operation flight, maintenance etc is unique, hence any new group be it pilot, mechanic, dispatcher etc is going to write an MOU based on the FAAs base template, not on some other airlines existing MOU. As you can clearly see here at the FAAs ASAP website.
 
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/memo_generator/
 
notice this part....
Automated Memorandum of Understanding Generator
If the TWU pioneered the program, why isn't there a mechanics only MOU generator? 
 
The TWU was merely the first mechanic group to sign on to a program that was already in existense, hence they "trailblazed" nothing.
 
I know having to educate you on the ASAP like this comes at the expense of your ignorance repeatedly being exposed  so I won't wait for your thank you.....
 
I'll just say .... you are welcome.

 
And when AMFA and the rest of the US airline AMTs want to step up their safety culture they should look at more of the TWU's pioneering work in maintenance safety.
 
http://flightsafety.org/aerosafety-world-magazine/september-2011/just-policy

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

 
And when AMFA and the rest of the US airline AMTs want to step up their safety culture they should look at more of the TWU's pioneering work in maintenance safety.
 
http://flightsafety.org/aerosafety-world-magazine/september-2011/just-policy

 
O/S
 
When the AMT's at the rest of the US airlines look to see which Union leads the way in Concessions they will see that the TWU is the pioneers at that as well.
 
"NO Thank You TWU"

 

[1AA]

Agan, the concept was put in to actual use for the first time by the TWU at AA. The White House and FAA honored the APA and TWU for stepping up when no one else did. We pioneered the first working program for mechanics in the industry and that is a fact. Once the TWU at AA for mechanics all other unions used our members hard pioneering work to use as the basis for their programs and MOUs.

Again your welcome.

Using the Wright Brothers again because people came before and imagined, talked, and wrote about powered fligtht the Wrights did no pioneering work in aviation. Just because an AC was written and people discussed the concept as a good idea before does not devalue the pioneering efforts of our TWU members at AA.

It's okay to say thank you for the TWU blazing the path for the first ever working ASAP program for mechanics. But because you can't I will say this....you are welcome.

OK so you made your point on ONE thing you feel the TWU has done. While your on a roll and have everybody's attention can you please tell us the other accomplishments the TWU has done for our profession? Here is a list. Please tell us how well the TWU has done on these with the same enthusiasm.
 
1) Two Tier pay scale
2) Two Tier vacation scale
3) Five paid vacation days
4) Reduced Vacation multiplier
5) Elimination of double time O/T
6) Ten days of IOD pay
7) Elimination of retirement Prefunding
8) Elimination of Penalty hour
9) Frozen Pensions
10) Reduction in Shift Premiums
11) Elimination of Longevity pay
12) Elimination of meal allowance
13) Removal of Cap on Flex benefits
14) Transfer lockout from 6 months to 1 year
15) New Line qual test (virtually impossible to pass)
16) Elimination of Profit Sharing
 
This should be enough to keep you busy. I am sure others can add to the list in a timely manner. Please take my request seriously. We all want to know how these items have benefited the AMT at AA with the same enthusiasm you have about the ASAP program.
 
Thank you and good luck.