Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

FWIW, UA has a similar program on the ramp as well (yes, I know they're not A&P's).

I agree with Chuck that ASAP programs have real value, and would love to see one on the ramp here at DL.
 
Overspeed said:
The APA and TWU were both honored by the FAA and the President of the US as being the first to implement ASAP. Both are pioneers in the ASAP programs that are now used industry wide.

Using your criteria the Wright Brothers did nothing and were not pioneers in aviation because many people before them envisioned powered flight before them. Face it, the TWU were the first to implement a working and functioning ASAP program that other unions should be thankful for the work they did.

You just want to feel better because you piped in before knowing the facts. Typical AMFA position based on emotion and lacking all the facts.

And your welcome.
Click to expand...
 
 
Do you really want to know what the TWU is pioneers in?  Talk about putting it on the ladies tee!
 
Overspeed said:
The APA and TWU were both honored by the FAA and the President of the US as being the first to implement ASAP. Both are pioneers in the ASAP programs that are now used industry wide.

Using your criteria the Wright Brothers did nothing and were not pioneers in aviation because many people before them envisioned powered flight before them. Face it, the TWU were the first to implement a working and functioning ASAP program that other unions should be thankful for the work they did.

You just want to feel better because you piped in before knowing the facts. Typical AMFA position based on emotion and lacking all the facts.

And your welcome.
Click to expand...
 
Being the first to JOIN an ASAP isn't the same as pioneering the ASAP!
 
By your own postings YOU freely admit that the TWU didn't JOIN the ASAP program til mid 1998, funny thing.......the ASAP program was formally standardized by the FAA in January 1997! 
 
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/23205
 
If the TWU pioneered the ASAP program why did take you a year and a half to JOIN?
 
Further, if the TWU "pioneered" the ASAP for mechanics in mid 1998, then how come the original Advisory Circular issued by the FAA in early 1997 has language in its example section clearly illustrating the FAA had already envisioned aircraft mechanics groups involvement over a FULL YEAR AND A HALF PRIOR TO THE TWU/Mechanics JOINING?
 
From FAA AC 120-66 dated January 8, 1997
 
(a) A pilot reports an altitude deviation where the
aircraft was assigned by ATC to climb to an altitude of 10,000
ft. MSL, but actually levels off at 11,000 ft. MSL. Evidence of
the violation, other than the safety-related report, (e.g., air
traffic control tape, air traffic controller's statements) is
gathered by an investigation not caused by, or otherwise
predicated on, the filing of the safety-related report. The
pilot's apparent violation does not involve conduct that is
excluded from the ASAP. The apparent violation therefore would
be addressed by the enforcement-related incentive.
(b) A repair station technician reports that he/she was
assigned to accomplish a required inspection (RII); however,
he/she inadvertently neglected to sign the check sheet that the
inspection was completed. Evidence of the apparent violation,
other than the technician's safety-related report, reveals that
the inspection was accomplished and the check sheet was not
signed. This evidence was gathered by an investigation not
caused by, or otherwise predicated on, the filing of the safetyrelated
report. The apparent violation does not involve conduct
that is excluded from the ASAP. The apparent violation therefore
would be addressed by the enforcement-related incentive.
 
 
Click to expand...
 
Contrary to your continued blathering, I have the facts, and it is you that is trying to make yourself and your TWU feel better by your ridiculous attempts at aggrandizement.
 
The TWU@AA was the first mechanic group to negotiate an MOU under the ASAP. I've never disputed that.
 
That said JOINING the ASAP program a FULL YEAR AND A HALF after its formal introduction hardly qualifies them as "pioneers" of the program.
 
And your welcome
 
Chuck and Kev
 
Please don't misunderstand me, I don't and have never questioned the benefits of the ASAP program for mechanics.
 
The program we have here at UAL has more than proved its worth to our members.
 
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #395
Chuck Schalk said:
I have to be honest here, although the pilots started the ASAP,  The ASAP program with the mechanics has been very effective and has helped many mechanics. I saw it first hand.  I give credit to the select few people who are involved in the program not the TWU as a whole.
Click to expand...
with that said,   the TWU has pioneered and mastered the ability to negotiate away everything that made our job a career.  this is fact, it is difficult for anyone to promote the TWU as a representative when they lead in concessions and have lowered the bar for the entire industry. Our contracts of 2003 and 2012 were used against other unions in negotiations after us.   at least the TWU can they pioneered something
 
Overspeed said:
Overhaul is shrinking but not out of existence and you know it.

I'm not pitting overhaul versus line I'm saying we are one unionized work force and it is wrong to sacrifice overhaul for line. There has to be a better way than the way AMFA rolled on overhaul workers.

The SRP job was started as a result of the outsourcing that was growing industry wide in the early 90s.
Click to expand...
O/S
 
You admit that O/H is shrinking as a result of outsourcing by companies. AA was the last to get on board with it but it's happening every day now. More and more jobs are being sent away to South America and other places that was done here in the states.
 
SO The SRP was started because of it. So are you saying that the TWU created/negotiated jobs for non licensed mechanics which does away with the A&P??
 
The line guys are A&Ps so you sacrifice the A&P for O/H. That is the point, this why we want the TWU gone. The TWU will take jobs give them to NON licensed mechanics, only to keep union dues coming in.
 
I don't wish for anyone to loose their job, but if the TWU didn't have the power to save the A&P then it's not AMFA's fault either that jobs went away.  Just because the AMFA didn't bargain away A&P jobs to non licensed mechanics shows us that they are looking out for the A&P and that is what we are paying them to do with our dues.
 
O/H and line both deserve to be represented by a union which will not bend over, setting the future of our class and craft back yrs. When more and more jobs are being shifted to MRO's or non licensed mechanics that jeopardises our wage earning potential.
 
When guys are laid off and go to work at MRO's for half the money they were being paid at a carrier, That sets the standard for our class and craft back yrs. This shows companies that some will work for less, that is why they offer less. The TWU is a business, and the TWU just wants its dues in order for the leaders to get theirs. They say we have more people employed and represented by the TWU. (just because of concessions) lower paying jobs.
 
Unions were setup to better the working mans wages NOT to set them back.
 
If the company turns Tulsa or any other base into a MRO paying lower wages will you still be saying we saved jobs? Just as long as the TWU represents the workers the TWU  leaders don't care one way or the other. (it's all about the dues) If the MRO wasn't so much of a draw due to lower wages then why are there so many and more starting every day????
 
The companies are willing to sacrifice american jobs to save cost.
The TWU is willing to sacrifice my paycheck to save itself.
 
One of you TWU supporters is going to attempt to spin the elitist factor from what I said but that is far from my point. I don't have all the answers. Some jobs were set up that did not require an A&P. The shop machinists, welders and component shop mechanics and others required jobs at the base station, are important. The company sets those stations in places that are generally company friendly and at less of an environmental cost. So wages can be lower. The line guys then should receive cost of living allowances like GEO pay. But when the TWU preaches that we are all one union, I either move to a base station or get another job/work O/T.
 
That is not what I or many other A&P's want to do spend more time away from family, the job in itself keeps most away at important times. (weekends/holidays/shifts)
It's NOT about the line vers the base its just simple economics.
 
The TWU's Intl. guys (gless/Don V./Drummand, got theirs and now a new batch is in place to get their money. When do we get ours????   
 
AMFA at AA 2014
 
Overspeed said:
Overhaul is shrinking but not out of existence and you know it.

I'm not pitting overhaul versus line I'm saying we are one unionized work force and it is wrong to sacrifice overhaul for line. There has to be a better way than the way AMFA rolled on overhaul workers.

The SRP job was started as a result of the outsourcing that was growing industry wide in the early 90s.
Click to expand...
But its ok to sacrifice the line for overhaul.
 
Chuck Schalk said:
with that said,   the TWU has pioneered and mastered the ability to negotiate away everything that made our job a career.  this is fact, it is difficult for anyone to promote the TWU as a representative when they lead in concessions and have lowered the bar for the entire industry. Our contracts of 2003 and 2012 were used against other unions in negotiations after us.   at least the TWU can they pioneered something
Click to expand...
Chuck I'm trying to understand the basis for where you stand? I have seen your You Tubes and understand that you feel in both 03 and during the BK that the members should have given the company a firm no vote. For 03 I wish we had had a crystal ball to know whether or not the company would have walked into that building in lower Manhattan so we would have had a clear choice? As for what happened during the BK I would like to understand your position as to what you truly believe would have been accomplished by taking a stand and holding firm?

I'm sure knowing the former position you were in that you have read all of the possible roads that were out there for us to have a template to guide us by? Or I have to assume that you truly believe we would have paved the way for a new path that went against everyone else who held firm? Without this being about either the TWU or AMFA what do you think would have happened? Or if you had 100% membership support for your plan, what should we have done?

Can you site me any example of where a union has said no in a BK and come out ahead? Taking into account the worst possible recent scenario example Hostess. And no I don't believe AA would have went that route before you respond.
 
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #399
WeAAsles said:
Chuck I'm trying to understand the basis for where you stand? I have seen your You Tubes and understand that you feel in both 03 and during the BK that the members should have given the company a firm no vote. For 03 I wish we had had a crystal ball to know whether or not the company would have walked into that building in lower Manhattan so we would have had a clear choice? As for what happened during the BK I would like to understand your position as to what you truly believe would have been accomplished by taking a stand and holding firm?

I'm sure knowing the former position you were in that you have read all of the possible roads that were out there for us to have a template to guide us by? Or I have to assume that you truly believe we would have paved the way for a new path that went against everyone else who held firm? Without this being about either the TWU or AMFA what do you think would have happened? Or if you had 100% membership support for your plan, what should we have done?

Can you site me any example of where a union has said no in a BK and come out ahead? Taking into account the worst possible recent scenario example Hostess. And no I don't believe AA would have went that route before you respond.
Click to expand...
2012 AA pilots turned theirs down in bankruptcy and renegotiated with the company and settled for more.
 
Chuck Schalk said:
2012 AA pilots turned theirs down in bankruptcy and renegotiated with the company and settled for more.
Click to expand...
No they didn't. They said no and the judge ultimately abrogated their contract. The company was imposing (soft) terms and the pilots somewhat fought back against those terms but ultimately settled for a 17% cut to their contract. The "Me Too" was admittedly a feel good document because under BK rule ALL creditors have to be treated equally. The 17% cut was agreed to be the UCC in which all 3 unions were a part of but did not have the over riding majority of 9.

If you are referring to the MOU between Usair and the pilots that was a separate entity purely designed to gain their support for a merger of the companies. Had AA been able to implement their original "Stand Alone" plan we all would be continuing to work under the imposed terms more than likely at the very least until the end of our contracts.    
 
Yes the pilots were given more equity and a larger 401 contribution but that was because their retirement A plan was terminated in BK. That was the one where they were able to receive a lump sum payout on their exit from the company. For some top pay Captains that amount would have been over a Million dollars.

Under the BK they did not come out ahead. They recieved no gains as much was taken from their their future golfing years.
 
WeAAsles said:
Chuck I'm trying to understand the basis for where you stand? I have seen your You Tubes and understand that you feel in both 03 and during the BK that the members should have given the company a firm no vote. For 03 I wish we had had a crystal ball to know whether or not the company would have walked into that building in lower Manhattan so we would have had a clear choice? As for what happened during the BK I would like to understand your position as to what you truly believe would have been accomplished by taking a stand and holding firm?

I'm sure knowing the former position you were in that you have read all of the possible roads that were out there for us to have a template to guide us by? Or I have to assume that you truly believe we would have paved the way for a new path that went against everyone else who held firm? Without this being about either the TWU or AMFA what do you think would have happened? Or if you had 100% membership support for your plan, what should we have done?

Can you site me any example of where a union has said no in a BK and come out ahead? Taking into account the worst possible recent scenario example Hostess. And no I don't believe AA would have went that route before you respond.
Click to expand...
WeAAsle
 
Voting "NO" back in 03 or this time in 2012 may have had some consequences, but like in any fight there is some collateral damage. No its not fun being that damage, but at least you either move or start over, or wait to be recalled if laid off. But Voting "YES" destroys the very core values that being in a union are about. Better paying job, vacations, holiday pay, sick time, medical benefits, aren't these things union men/woman fought for in the past.  Our class and craft is under attack and its time to say "Enough is Enough"
 
Coming out the other side of BK for the better is almost an impossible thing, but setting it up that as soon as the company turns around the union members get back what they had  to a point is what we all want. Some thing we can do without, some we can except but when they take it all that is NOT acceptable. Just how many times do the employees of any company have to bail out the Mgmt for the mistakes they made only to have them get a parachute made of Gold as they are replaced.
 
PanAm, Eastern, TWA, Continental, Air Florida, Capitol Intl., NorthEast, MGM Grand all gone and some say good riddance. The strong survive that is the way it is, Why have the employees  here had to watch as their pay checks got smaller as the economy grew. Even McDonnell Douglas is gone airbus and boeing have survived. Again just part of the business, (aviation). Most of us knew that coming in.
 
WeAAsle you are not an A&P so you just don't get it, many throughout our industry have started over many times including myself. It gets into your blood the craft and its hard to walk away from. But its also as hard to watch the career path that we chose get destroyed.
 
AMFAinMIAMI said:
WeAAsle
 
Voting "NO" back in 03 or this time in 2012 may have had some consequences, but like in any fight there is some collateral damage. No its not fun being that damage, but at least you either move or start over, or wait to be recalled if laid off. But Voting "YES" destroys the very core values that being in a union are about. Better paying job, vacations, holiday pay, sick time, medical benefits, aren't these things union men/woman fought for in the past.  Our class and craft is under attack and its time to say "Enough is Enough"
 
Coming out the other side of BK for the better is almost an impossible thing, but setting it up that as soon as the company turns around the union members get back what they had  to a point is what we all want. Some thing we can do without, some we can except but when they take it all that is NOT acceptable. Just how many times do the employees of any company have to bail out the Mgmt for the mistakes they made only to have them get a parachute made of Gold as they are replaced.
 
PanAm, Eastern, TWA, Continental, Air Florida, Capitol Intl., NorthEast, MGM Grand all gone and some say good riddance. The strong survive that is the way it is, Why have the employees  here had to watch as their pay checks got smaller as the economy grew. Even McDonnell Douglas is gone airbus and boeing have survived. Again just part of the business, (aviation). Most of us knew that coming in.
 
WeAAsle you are not an A&P so you just don't get it, many throughout our industry have started over many times including myself. It gets into your blood the craft and its hard to walk away from. But its also as hard to watch the career path that we chose get destroyed.
Click to expand...
Amfaman this is the reason why you will ALWAYS lose. You like many consider yourself a part of some kind of privileged class. Unlike the extremely intelligent unions in Europe who stand up for all who are a part of labor. You feel your power lies in insulating and isolating yourself from all other who struggle with the preface "You don't understand" You prefer to shun all others because they do not perform the specialty that you chose to educate yourself into. Everyone has their place in your societal view unless they happen to be earning or making more than yourself and then it's ok to rally against them.

Have you ever done any research on the power of the Union movement overseas? Look into why they have been so successful while the private sector union movement in the US where it all started is down to a measly 6%. I personally don't care if you feel I belong in your Country Club or not because personally it's rotting from within. And really the only one you have to blame is yourself for that.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN02556:mad:@@L&summ2=m&
 
WeAAsles said:
Amfaman this is the reason why you will ALWAYS lose. You like many consider yourself a part of some kind of privileged class. Unlike the extremely intelligent unions in Europe who stand up for all who are a part of labor. You feel your power lies in insulating and isolating yourself from all other who struggle with the preface "You don't understand" You prefer to shun all others because they do not perform the specialty that you chose to educate yourself into. Everyone has their place in your societal view unless they happen to be earning or making more than yourself and then it's ok to rally against them.

Have you ever done any research on the power of the Union movement overseas? Look into why they have been so successful while the private sector union movement in the US where it all started is down to a measly 6%. I personally don't care if you feel I belong in your Country Club or not because personally it's rotting from within. And really the only one you have to blame is yourself for that.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN02556:mad:@@L&summ2=m&
Click to expand...
WeAAsles
 
It has nothing to do with being part of any class, are lawyers/doctors/electricians/nurses
or any other work groups with a license of any kind forced into groups that as long as the group itself survives they should suffer. "NO" I knew you would as a TWU supporter come back with that. That is what the TWU says all the time.
 
I don't feel your job is any less important than mine, its all part of the machine, I just want my cut of that machine and want the union of my choice to help me get that.
I don't want other work groups setting the table for my class and craft. 
 
Then why doesn't the TWU represent fireman/policeman/nurses/electricians/plumbers/truckers/longshore workers because they want to be in a union for their group they feel they can be better represented.
They want to be with like minded people who understand and have been there doing the job and knows what it took to get there.
 
Please don't lump me into to a group that the TWU has said thinks it is better I have been in this industry TOOOO Long.
 
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