Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[Overspeed]

same old song, same failed plan, same hyperthetical BS and what did it get us........Concessions

 
And your hypothetical about AMFA saving us all and getting us a better deal is not BS? It is BS because they failed at UA, failed at AS, and had an epic fail at NW. That's one, two, three strikes your out!

 

[AANYER]

To all,
 
Believe it or not, "Overspeed" is part of AA management.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
I remember MCI pumping out the work. The company failed to fill the facility with MRO work as I understand it. Looks like you left out some facts Chuck...again.

now it's the companies fault....it was the TWU International reps and Gordon Clark pounding the drum not the company.  what a great deflector you are and always have been.

 

[Overspeed]

now it's the companies fault....it was the TWU International reps and Gordon Clark pounding the drum not the company.  what a great deflector you are and always have been.

 
Gordon did pound the drum. If it had worked he would have been a hero. It failed and now he's a chump. That's how it goes when you take risks. AMFA tried to fight and lost so they are chumps just as well.
 
It was and is the company's duty to manage, even mismanage it. Unfortunately companies can take the risks and the workers pay the consequences. It's capitalism at it's finest.

 

[Realityck]

TWU "protected" the jobs by giving concessions, and yet the headcount continues to shrink? Is that standard industrial unionist fuzzy math? I am no math professor, but the historical facts are all that one has to look at. TWU is not succeeding, TWU has chosen a different path to failure is all. What you have advocated is costing the Line AMT into below industry standards, to keep overhaul jobs that are leaving anyway. This is turn has created a major wedge within the union, weakened that already weak TWU even further to historical weakness and lack of support, and now we truly are at the mercy of the Line AMT majority, and Laws that are against us because the TWU/AFL-CIO political BS is just as much a farse as the philosophy you defend. All the while handing out t-shirts that profess "unity" and that "I am the Union".....what a bunch of crap! It is typical human behavior to defend a failing philosophy because you are directly responsible for the path we are on. But that doesn't make it right, better, or more correct than what the facts speak as truth, which is "TWU is failing, just like the rest of organized labor". Go ahead, bury your head in the sand for self seeking pride, and once the end comes, be sure and blame the members, who under the TWU Consitution have zero authority in the decision making.
 
Outsource percentage is now higher than ever, headcount lower than ever, and with new aircraft and new outsource formula the headcount will continue to be decimated.
 
And you are here, defending the path to failure as exceptional compared to others? Really? You may need to seek professional guidance.

 
 
 
 
It’s amazing to read this sort of nonsense as if the last catastrophic decade from AMFA never happened. Let’s review it. Ten years ago, AMFA represented mechanics at seven carriers: Independence, ATA, Mesaba, Horizon, United, Alaska, and Southwest, with close to 20,000 members. I used to see their supporters selling T shirts bragging about it. Now AMFA has about 3,000 members at two carriers. It is equally amazing to hear people complaining about giving up deicing and push-backs thirty years ago as part of a contract the International recommended that the membership reject. If those functions were restored to Title I, I doubt it would create more than a few dozen jobs system wide.  AMFA managed to give up many times that number of jobs when it allowed heavy maintenance and plant maintenance to be outsourced at Alaska.
 
As has been pointed out before, after losing two major arbitrations, AMFA managed to allow NWA to cut its mechanic and related workforce by more than sixty percent while its fleet was reduced by approximately twenty percent, and to allow the majority of heavy checks to be performed by outside vendors. This was before the strike. We know what happened after the strike.  On that issue, it’s incredible that people get on this board and rant against the “Communist” industrial unions after the UAW, the most traditional industrial union of them all, supplied more economic assistance to NWA strikers than AMFA did - from the dues paid by skilled and unskilled alike.
 
I haven’t criticized AMFA for the concessions at United. Those were imposed in bankruptcy and no union has many choices in bankruptcy other than to provide the relief demanded, and each union that has faced this issue has, in fact, provided the relief demanded. However, the TWU negotiated pay increases, not decreases in bankruptcy, and provided the only bona fide snap back to industry standard negotiated for mechanics out of all the bankruptcy agreements. That provision has, like so much else, been misrepresented on these pages. The comparison is to the average of United, Delta, and USAirways. That would be worth several dollars an hour right now. In September of 2015 United will almost certainly have a new agreement with pay increases, and Delta will follow suit. More important, once there is a single agreement covering AA and USAirways mechanics - and there is no reason that this cannot be accomplished by September of 2015 - there will be no USAirways rate and that comparator will be eliminated. That will produce a major pay increase.
 
There is no question that we have suffered a reduction in headcount due to the bankruptcy.  That reduction has been much less than at other carriers subject to bankruptcy. You act as if there were great choices to be made, that somehow the judge would have intervened to protect us. The Company demanded and received what it said it needed from each work group and each work group complains that they were singled out for the harshest treatment. The same pattern occurred at every other bankruptcy. If you doubt it look at the complaints by mechanics at every other bankruptcy agreement, including those made by AMFA.

 

[screwed again]

What if there is a single agreement covering both AA and USAirways mechs. by Sept. of 2015?  What if the said agreement no longer has the snap back to industry average in it? Then What?

 

[Flying low]

And your hypothetical about AMFA saving us all and getting us a better deal is not BS? It is BS because they failed at UA, failed at AS, and had an epic fail at NW. That's one, two, three strikes your out!

With that type of thinking, MCI closed = strike 1, AFW closed = strike 2, one more and TWU your out...

 

[Flying low]

What if there is a single agreement covering both AA and USAirways mechs. by Sept. of 2015?  What if the said agreement no longer has the snap back to industry average in it? Then What?

Wouldn't we still be bound to our contract until 2018? Even so, as Chuck pointed out the "industry average" pay raise we're supposed to get won't amount to a hill of beans.

 

[Overspeed]

Wouldn't we still be bound to our contract until 2018? Even so, as Chuck pointed out the "industry average" pay raise we're supposed to get won't amount to a hill of beans.

 
The industry average rate adjustment (attachment 4.5) kicks in 36 months after DOS. That being said the snap shot at that time will not include US because AA should have single operating certificate in place. SInce US will now be part of the new AA they don't exist as US. So now DL and US will be used as the rates for industry average. Your contractual annual scale raises will compound on top of the new rate. The one area that could be a concern is that we can be helped by UA and DL if they settle before 36 month DOS. If they don't we would averaged in at their current top rates. I haven't heard that there is much movement at UA right now or US on their respective contracts.

 

[Overspeed]

With that type of thinking, MCI closed = strike 1, AFW closed = strike 2, one more and TWU your out...

 
I agree with that. GP is leading the charge at 591 and he will have his chance to get TWU members a great raise for all of us in the JCBA discussions. He now has the largest local in the system and the full backing of all Title 1 and 2. TWU will get us an ILC especially with Bob working the numbers.

 

[swamt]

Overspeed, AKA "Overspun"
 
Stop the bullshit, every word that comes out of your nasty, philthy mouth makes each and every AMT hate the TWU and you even more.  Go hide under a rock you sc&m bucket.  We hate you at the greatest level you can imagine.

This is exactly why I tell him to keep posting.

 

[swamt]

WOW! As predicted, here comes Overspeed and Realitycheck out of the wood-works.  LOL.  Just gotta love this stuff.  C'mon you two (Overspeed and Realitycheck) Please keep spreading your BS, please do...

 

[scorpion 2]

 
Help me out. Are you saying that since you believe the TWU is on a "different path to failure" are you saying that the AMFA, IBT, IAM, and TWU are all going about it the wrong way? Then why even change if we are all screwed. I don't think we are.
 
As far as you your statements about headcount and outsourcing percentage you are right. Headcount is the lowest it has been on a ratio basis it is still better than all others. Outsourcing percentage is higher but still better than everyone else.
 
I think we are in the best position ever to get a good contract and fix the problems with our CBA. The industry is in an upturn, we have a JCBA to negotiate soon after the IAM gets parity with us on pay, the Art 4 wage adjustment is kicking in soon, and we have early openers in less than two years. We need to start getting our act together instead of bickering and wasting resources on another failed AMFA drive, a union that even you agree has failed.

When they get parity with us on pay dont they also get parity with us on all our crap. Isnt that a net zero?  What does parity on pay have to do with JCBA? We had an early opener in the last concessionary deal and didnt use it but does it really matter since we are under the RLA?  US AMT's are in negotiations right now and their own worst enemy is our contract!  Instead of melting in with our bowl of sh!t wouldnt it be better if they fight to get something that will be beneficial to all of us later on down the road?  I guess misery likes company thats why your hoping they settle for a twu sh!t sandwich.

 

[Overspeed]

When they get parity with us on pay dont they also get parity with us on all our crap. Isnt that a net zero?  What does parity on pay have to do with JCBA? We had an early opener in the last concessionary deal and didnt use it but does it really matter since we are under the RLA?  US AMT's are in negotiations right now and their own worst enemy is our contract!  Instead of melting in with our bowl of sh!t wouldnt it be better if they fight to get something that will be beneficial to all of us later on down the road?  I guess misery likes company thats why your hoping they settle for a twu sh!t sandwich.

 
You would have to ask the IAM nego comm what they are looking for. I would suspect they want parity on pay for now but I don't know. Yes the IAM/US CBA has more holidays, better OT rates, and quite a few other things. I would suspect that during a JCBA nego that selecting the best of both would be the priority. That is why I strongly beleive now is not the time to be switching unions. It is my opinion that is why AMFA got hammered at UA and AS on scope because they did not understand the intent of the prior language. The company probably knew that and attacked while they were still figuring out the CBAs in place.
 
Even though I disagree with many things the current 591 EB believes, people like GP, Owens, and Rojas were there. If anyone has a good shot of getting us the best of both CBAs while making sure AA management doesn't shaft us it would be them.

 

[MetalMover]

 
The industry average rate adjustment (attachment 4.5) kicks in 36 months after DOS. That being said the snap shot at that time will not include US because AA should have single operating certificate in place. SInce US will now be part of the new AA they don't exist as US. So now DL and US will be used as the rates for industry average. Your contractual annual scale raises will compound on top of the new rate. The one area that could be a concern is that we can be helped by UA and DL if they settle before 36 month DOS. If they don't we would averaged in at their current top rates. I haven't heard that there is much movement at UA right now or US on their respective contracts.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Just because the single operating certificate would be in place does not mean we will have a new contract. Negotiations can take years. Look at UA/CO. How many years have they been negotiating and they HAVE THE SAME UNION? This could drag on until our current contract expires.