Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[scorpion 2]

Yes, but the members removed you and the people who removed us have all been removed.  

Now thats funny,,.,, I dont care who you are. LOL

 

[swamt]

Agreed.  Now, do we have the balls to finally do anything about it?
 
I sure hope we do!

Pretty sure this will be the year...

 

[Overspeed]

Yes, but the members removed you and the people who removed us have all been removed.  

 
Uh...I'm still working. How was I "removed"?

 

[Overspeed]

You are correct, when the TWU agreed to B-scale they already had the most permissive language in the industry as far as outsourcing via the CR Smith Letter. The deal was less layoffs in return for more outsourcing, protect current workers even if it means a shrinking overall headcount through attrition. Then when other carriers agreed to B Scale the TWU went from a 9 year progression to a 12 year progressions plus an addition 4 years if hired with no experience. Finally the market caught up and AA was unable to attract or retain mechanics with the 12 year progression  so they lowered it down to where everyone else was to a five year progression. Remember that prior to 1983 the industry standard , including AA was two years to top. So we can fairly be cited for increasing the progression by more than 150%. All along the way the TWU introduced "in house outsourcing of A&P work" through the transfer of R&D to Fleet, Deicing to Fleet and SRPs in overhaul. Even today when Overspeed cites 'mechanics" per aircraft he uses the whole title group, which includes many workers at much less than full AMT rates, not AMT or A&Ps per aircraft.  Figure around 3 of the "mechanics per aircraft " he cites are people making much less than full AMT rates. Line maintenance wise we are about the same as other legacy carriers as far as the ratio, but at much, much lower rates of total compensation, in total compensation we are even lower than USAIR. 
 
This is the legacy that Overspeed supported and wishes for us to continue and it has nothing to do with saving jobs, it has to do with giving AA management whatever they want. In the past they wanted industry leading outsourcing, they got that, now that other carriers have won the ability to outsource which eliminated that advantage and leveled the playing field between carriers they want the lowest compensation, by far, in the industry, Overspeed supports that. One thing that is pretty consistent about Overspeed is that if it means putting more of our money in the companys pocket he finds a way to support it. 

 
So if the TWU had the most permissive langauge in the industry and the "better" CBAs had stronger language, how did the other airlines start the outsourcing trend before AA? Did their unions allow it? Could it be you are wrong and the TWU language is actually better?
 
The TWU responded to the outsourcing trend by instead of just saying screw it, the outsourcing battle is lost like Prisco said over at UA while an AMFA rep, they kept the work inhouse. Even protected license pay if a person was displaced in to the classification. At all the other airlines, if you get laid off from an AMT job then you can apply at AAR for $12 and hour to do the work you could have been doing as topped out OSM.
 
And the numbers that are cited here about 18,000 mechanics also include the entire Title I as well. It is a fair comparison to use ratios.
 
I support a good wage for good work. The Art 1 and 4 wage adjustment language protects way more jobs and keeps our pay higher than it would have been if we had done it your way and let the judge abrogate our agreement. Have you seen how easily AE is getting dismantled? Do you really think by voting no and letting a judge look out for us would have been a good deal? Every other airline trashed their AMT work force. But you would have been fine with that because while you still went to work passing the people who got laid off you could say, "Did you see that guys in court? We were fighters!"

 

[AANYER]

Overspeed, AKA "Overspun"
 
Stop the bullshit, every word that comes out of your nasty, philthy mouth makes each and every AMT hate the TWU and you even more.  Go hide under a rock you sc&m bucket.  We hate you at the greatest level you can imagine.

 

[TWU informer]

 
So if the TWU had the most permissive langauge in the industry and the "better" CBAs had stronger language, how did the other airlines start the outsourcing trend before AA? Did their unions allow it? Could it be you are wrong and the TWU language is actually better?
 
The TWU responded to the outsourcing trend by instead of just saying screw it, the outsourcing battle is lost like Prisco said over at UA while an AMFA rep, they kept the work inhouse. Even protected license pay if a person was displaced in to the classification. At all the other airlines, if you get laid off from an AMT job then you can apply at AAR for $12 and hour to do the work you could have been doing as topped out OSM.
 
And the numbers that are cited here about 18,000 mechanics also include the entire Title I as well. It is a fair comparison to use ratios.
 
I support a good wage for good work. The Art 1 and 4 wage adjustment language protects way more jobs and keeps our pay higher than it would have been if we had done it your way and let the judge abrogate our agreement. Have you seen how easily AE is getting dismantled? Do you really think by voting no and letting a judge look out for us would have been a good deal? Every other airline trashed their AMT work force. But you would have been fine with that because while you still went to work passing the people who got laid off you could say, "Did you see that guys in court? We were fighters!"

TWU "protected" the jobs by giving concessions, and yet the headcount continues to shrink? Is that standard industrial unionist fuzzy math? I am no math professor, but the historical facts are all that one has to look at. TWU is not succeeding, TWU has chosen a different path to failure is all. What you have advocated is costing the Line AMT into below industry standards, to keep overhaul jobs that are leaving anyway. This is turn has created a major wedge within the union, weakened that already weak TWU even further to historical weakness and lack of support, and now we truly are at the mercy of the Line AMT majority, and Laws that are against us because the TWU/AFL-CIO political BS is just as much a farse as the philosophy you defend. All the while handing out t-shirts that profess "unity" and that "I am the Union".....what a bunch of crap! It is typical human behavior to defend a failing philosophy because you are directly responsible for the path we are on. But that doesn't make it right, better, or more correct than what the facts speak as truth, which is "TWU is failing, just like the rest of organized labor". Go ahead, bury your head in the sand for self seeking pride, and once the end comes, be sure and blame the members, who under the TWU Consitution have zero authority in the decision making.
 
Outsource percentage is now higher than ever, headcount lower than ever, and with new aircraft and new outsource formula the headcount will continue to be decimated.
 
And you are here, defending the path to failure as exceptional compared to others? Really? You may need to seek professional guidance.

 

[DallasConehead]

Who cares,,, a few years more and Ill be out of this crap hole with all its BS every single day.

 

[TWU informer]

Overspeed, AKA "Overspun"
 
Stop the bullshit, every word that comes out of your nasty, philthy mouth makes each and every AMT hate the TWU and you even more.  Go hide under a rock you sc&m bucket.  We hate you at the greatest level you can imagine.

I don't hate overspeed at all, and calling him names isn't making a difference. Defending a failed union policy like he does, is allowed in the United States, just like other things you likely depise are allowed in a free Country. But expressing your opinion without the name calling and hate would be a more professional and democratic way to disagree with him or anyone else.

 

[TWU informer]

Who cares,,, a few years more and Ill be out of this crap hole with all its BS every single day.

I care! And this isn't just about you my friend.

 

[Overspeed]

TWU "protected" the jobs by giving concessions, and yet the headcount continues to shrink? Is that standard industrial unionist fuzzy math? I am no math professor, but the historical facts are all that one has to look at. TWU is not succeeding, TWU has chosen a different path to failure is all. What you have advocated is costing the Line AMT into below industry standards, to keep overhaul jobs that are leaving anyway. This is turn has created a major wedge within the union, weakened that already weak TWU even further to historical weakness and lack of support, and now we truly are at the mercy of the Line AMT majority, and Laws that are against us because the TWU/AFL-CIO political BS is just as much a farse as the philosophy you defend. All the while handing out t-shirts that profess "unity" and that "I am the Union".....what a bunch of crap! It is typical human behavior to defend a failing philosophy because you are directly responsible for the path we are on. But that doesn't make it right, better, or more correct than what the facts speak as truth, which is "TWU is failing, just like the rest of organized labor". Go ahead, bury your head in the sand for self seeking pride, and once the end comes, be sure and blame the members, who under the TWU Consitution have zero authority in the decision making.
 
Outsource percentage is now higher than ever, headcount lower than ever, and with new aircraft and new outsource formula the headcount will continue to be decimated.
 
And you are here, defending the path to failure as exceptional compared to others? Really? You may need to seek professional guidance.

 
Help me out. Are you saying that since you believe the TWU is on a "different path to failure" are you saying that the AMFA, IBT, IAM, and TWU are all going about it the wrong way? Then why even change if we are all screwed. I don't think we are.
 
As far as you your statements about headcount and outsourcing percentage you are right. Headcount is the lowest it has been on a ratio basis it is still better than all others. Outsourcing percentage is higher but still better than everyone else.
 
I think we are in the best position ever to get a good contract and fix the problems with our CBA. The industry is in an upturn, we have a JCBA to negotiate soon after the IAM gets parity with us on pay, the Art 4 wage adjustment is kicking in soon, and we have early openers in less than two years. We need to start getting our act together instead of bickering and wasting resources on another failed AMFA drive, a union that even you agree has failed.

 

[TWU informer]

 
Help me out. Are you saying that since you believe the TWU is on a "different path to failure" are you saying that the AMFA, IBT, IAM, and TWU are all going about it the wrong way? Then why even change if we are all screwed. I don't think we are.
 
As far as you your statements about headcount and outsourcing percentage you are right. Headcount is the lowest it has been on a ratio basis it is still better than all others. Outsourcing percentage is higher but still better than everyone else.
 
I think we are in the best position ever to get a good contract and fix the problems with our CBA. The industry is in an upturn, we have a JCBA to negotiate soon after the IAM gets parity with us on pay, the Art 4 wage adjustment is kicking in soon, and we have early openers in less than two years. We need to start getting our act together instead of bickering and wasting resources on another failed AMFA drive, a union that even you agree has failed.

I am saying the AMT's of this industry are going about it the wrong way.
 
Instead of being divided into different unions, all AMT's need to unite into one. And the AMFA Consitituion and purpose would serve them best.
 
Stop being used against each other in negotiations in a race to the bottom, stop reliance on campaign finance, yard signs, get out the vote, ect. And actually pull off a France type of industry wide shut down, and let's see who the Politicians listen to then. Worked in the past, why not today too?
 
Might be just a dream and never happen. But my dream and idea is better than your status quo defending the same old tired unionism because you want to protect leadership positions and dues income for politicians.
 
My idea hasn't been tried by the AMT's.
Yours HAS though!
 
You are always so narrowed minded, thinking only of yourself, overhaul outsourcing, or only those of us at AA, and not looking at the problem from an industry wide/idea perspective.
 
You seem to like to talk about a "strength in numbers" idea, except when it comes to using the idea, or the AMT's all getting into one union to create the strength. Then your emotions of hate, and your comparison of failures take over and you are blinded from any idea beyond your defending of the TWU and the industry wide failure we are suffering from. Or your once again frothing of " we are going to get 'em next time". I have waited for many next times with the TWU, and it never comes.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
So if the TWU had the most permissive langauge in the industry and the "better" CBAs had stronger language, how did the other airlines start the outsourcing trend before AA? Did their unions allow it? Could it be you are wrong and the TWU language is actually better?
 
The TWU responded to the outsourcing trend by instead of just saying screw it, the outsourcing battle is lost like Prisco said over at UA while an AMFA rep, they kept the work inhouse. Even protected license pay if a person was displaced in to the classification. At all the other airlines, if you get laid off from an AMT job then you can apply at AAR for $12 and hour to do the work you could have been doing as topped out OSM.
 
And the numbers that are cited here about 18,000 mechanics also include the entire Title I as well. It is a fair comparison to use ratios.
 
I support a good wage for good work. The Art 1 and 4 wage adjustment language protects way more jobs and keeps our pay higher than it would have been if we had done it your way and let the judge abrogate our agreement. Have you seen how easily AE is getting dismantled? Do you really think by voting no and letting a judge look out for us would have been a good deal? Every other airline trashed their AMT work force. But you would have been fine with that because while you still went to work passing the people who got laid off you could say, "Did you see that guys in court? We were fighters!"

really Overspun,  sounds like the TWU......... remember when MCI was pumping out the work and TWU president Gordon Clark was giving blessed speeches how great his members were doing and how much the TWU International supported their base. while he was speaking to the press mci mechanics were rolling their tool boxes out to the parking lot because they were laid off! walking by the TWU international reps and Gordon Clark who went to work. The TWU dropprd the ball on all the MCI workers with false hopes and eventually closed the base under the TWU watch.
 
Your theory is hyperthetical,  my statement is fact!

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Help me out. Are you saying that since you believe the TWU is on a "different path to failure" are you saying that the AMFA, IBT, IAM, and TWU are all going about it the wrong way? Then why even change if we are all screwed. I don't think we are.
 
As far as you your statements about headcount and outsourcing percentage you are right. Headcount is the lowest it has been on a ratio basis it is still better than all others. Outsourcing percentage is higher but still better than everyone else.
 
I think we are in the best position ever to get a good contract and fix the problems with our CBA. The industry is in an upturn, we have a JCBA to negotiate soon after the IAM gets parity with us on pay, the Art 4 wage adjustment is kicking in soon, and we have early openers in less than two years. 

same old song, same failed plan, same hyperthetical BS and what did it get us........Concessions

 

[DNTULSA]

Chuck,
 
you left out layoffs!

 

[Overspeed]

really Overspun,  sounds like the TWU......... remember when MCI was pumping out the work and TWU president Gordon Clark was giving blessed speeches how great his members were doing and how much the TWU International supported their base. while he was speaking to the press mci mechanics were rolling their tool boxes out to the parking lot because they were laid off! walking by the TWU international reps and Gordon Clark who went to work. The TWU dropprd the ball on all the MCI workers with false hopes and eventually closed the base under the TWU watch.
 
Your theory is hyperthetical,  my statement is fact!

 
I remember MCI pumping out the work. The company failed to fill the facility with MRO work as I understand it. Looks like you left out some facts Chuck...again.