Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[Chuck Schalk]

NO, he cannot Chuck, and he knows it.  BTW Chuck, do you or anyone else know what the total number of aircraft mechanics at AA is?  If so please post.  At one time I believe your ranks were at a high of 18,000 plus.  What OS will not admit is the fact the NWA guys were forced to strike which is exactly what the company wanted them to do.  With the offer of 53% of the mechanics being put on the street with their vote of yes, they were forced to come together and actually what a union is suppose to do and support the group, not the "I got mine" group.  I walked with the NWA strikers a many times and they all said they will stand by their decision.  In retrospect, AMFA showed they had balls. NOT like the TWU agreeing to everything the company wants, changing voted rights, and doing behind close door deals.  If anything AMFA has proven unionism twice at NWA.  The first was the big pay raises brought to the mechanic industry by AMFA.  The second was of course the fact that AMFA did what a union is suppose to do when the company wants to sell out over 50% of the ranks.  NOT just sit back and let the company do it, AND, AGREE to it and sellit to the membership as a good thing.  Are you Tulsa guys seeing the light yet?   God I hope so.  OS, take your spin somewhere else, you are getting nowhere here what-so-ever...

i know for a fact that our numbers for title 1 and title 2 in 2003 was 16,750
we are now down to approx 8300 title 1and title 2
you do the math.....the TWU lost all those members under their watch and most notably the TWU pushed us to vote "yes" knowing what the effects would be to the membership.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Overspun,
 
we all understand what the TWU has given up over the years from the members.  I am now not asking for that. i am asking for a list that demonstrates how well the TWU has represented their members.
 
I only want you to explain the great previous accomplishments while under the TWU watch and demonstrate what the TWU has done to help our careers before, now, and the TWU plan in the future.
 
This is not an AMFA question, this is a direct question about our TWU
 
The floor is yours...............

 

[Overspeed]

 
It's all he's got!
 
I still can't figure out which one sucks the least!

 
No they went down to 800 mechanics left working at NW from over 8000 at their peak. That is a big deal!

 

[Overspeed]

Nice spin but try again. So never mind our ranks shrunk by well over 4000 mechanics...But you're making a big deal over NW losing 800 AMT's???????
According to you it's ok because we have MORE than the industry standard!

 
No it's not okay. What you and many others fail to realize that the loss of so many mechanic jobs is mainly due to the TWU having to fight the trend. The outsourcing trend by other airlines whose worker are represented by unions like AMFA. When AA wanted to gut the scope clause they used contracts like AMFA/AS, AMFA/WN, IBT/UA, and IBT/CO as examples of what AA needed to compete. The supposed ball busting unions AMFA and the IBT had already given up on stopping outsourcing and that was used against us.
 
And the point is NW was LEFT with only 800 AMTs when the AMFA "fight" was over.

 

[Overspeed]

i know for a fact that our numbers for title 1 and title 2 in 2003 was 16,750
we are now down to approx 8300 title 1and title 2
you do the math.....the TWU lost all those members under their watch and most notably the TWU pushed us to vote "yes" knowing what the effects would be to the membership.

 
And AA had 820 aging aircraft in 2003 and had just completed an ill-conceived merger with TWA. There was much overlap and old aircraft take a lot more AMTs to maintain. When you look at AMTs per aircraft up until the BK the ratio has stayed almost the same. That means job loss was in line with what a person would expect when over 225 old aircraft are retired. Now since the BK AA dropped another 2,500 for increased outsourcing. Even after BK AA has more AMTs working overhaul than any other airline. Now if we had pushed for getting a better deal in BK court we probably would have lost another 2,000 additional jobs.
 
But then we could claim the TWU is fighter like AMFA by getting our a**es handed to us as a consolation prize.

 

[Overspeed]

Overspun,
 
we all understand what the TWU has given up over the years from the members.  I am now not asking for that. i am asking for a list that demonstrates how well the TWU has represented their members.
 
I only want you to explain the great previous accomplishments while under the TWU watch and demonstrate what the TWU has done to help our careers before, now, and the TWU plan in the future.
 
This is not an AMFA question, this is a direct question about our TWU
 
The floor is yours...............

 
Item one, the TWU removed you and Bob from office.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Item one, the TWU removed you and Bob from office.

thats the best you can do?   you really don't have anything do you

 

[swamt]

Let's see 16,750-8300=  8,450 TWU members left.  Yea according to OS, no big deal.  Hey moron, that's more than you claim was the the loss at NWA.  Keep posting, you still do a great job for the TWU, keep up the great work...

 

[1AA]

Let's see 16,750-8300=  8,450 TWU members left.  Yea according to OS, no big deal.  Hey moron, that's more than you claim was the the loss at NWA.  Keep posting, you still do a great job for the TWU, keep up the great work...

Hey the TWU saved jobs by creating the OSM/SRP classification. The TWU and the company knew the financial logistics of living in Tulsa versus other class 1 stations.
Result was guys stayed in Tulsa , worked more O/T and managed to keep their families together. Yup this is what unions are all about. Saving jobs at what cost?

 

[scorpion 2]

 
No it's not okay. What you and many others fail to realize that the loss of so many mechanic jobs is mainly due to the TWU having to fight the trend. The outsourcing trend by other airlines whose worker are represented by unions like AMFA. When AA wanted to gut the scope clause they used contracts like AMFA/AS, AMFA/WN, IBT/UA, and IBT/CO as examples of what AA needed to compete. The supposed ball busting unions AMFA and the IBT had already given up on stopping outsourcing and that was used against us.
 
And the point is NW was LEFT with only 800 AMTs when the AMFA "fight" was over.

The trend setter was the twu. The B scale was the first injustice delivered to the mechanics. They twu not only tipped the first concessionary domino over with the creation of the B scale they have made cannibalism standard fare at the negotiations table. The other unions were faced with ugly decisions when it came time to negotiate because of the twu style of bargaining. We retained our scope language because we gutted everything else in our contracts. Our scope was never that solid anyway. The C.R. Smith letter was the heart n sole of our scope and was written at a time when a hand shake meant something. Its gone now and so is the rest of the weak language in our scope. You want to point fingers at the other unions scope but you need to be honest with yourself and realize how it came to be. Pressure from the weak link in unionism (twu) caused the downward spiral in all articles of mechanics contracts, throughout the industry.   

 

[Bob Owens]

The trend setter was the twu. The B scale was the first injustice delivered to the mechanics. They twu not only tipped the first concessionary domino over with the creation of the B scale they have made cannibalism standard fare at the negotiations table. The other unions were faced with ugly decisions when it came time to negotiate because of the twu style of bargaining. We retained our scope language because we gutted everything else in our contracts. Our scope was never that solid anyway. The C.R. Smith letter was the heart n sole of our scope and was written at a time when a hand shake meant something. Its gone now and so is the rest of the weak language in our scope. You want to point fingers at the other unions scope but you need to be honest with yourself and realize how it came to be. Pressure from the weak link in unionism (twu) caused the downward spiral in all articles of mechanics contracts, throughout the industry.   

You are correct, when the TWU agreed to B-scale they already had the most permissive language in the industry as far as outsourcing via the CR Smith Letter. The deal was less layoffs in return for more outsourcing, protect current workers even if it means a shrinking overall headcount through attrition. Then when other carriers agreed to B Scale the TWU went from a 9 year progression to a 12 year progressions plus an addition 4 years if hired with no experience. Finally the market caught up and AA was unable to attract or retain mechanics with the 12 year progression  so they lowered it down to where everyone else was to a five year progression. Remember that prior to 1983 the industry standard , including AA was two years to top. So we can fairly be cited for increasing the progression by more than 150%. All along the way the TWU introduced "in house outsourcing of A&P work" through the transfer of R&D to Fleet, Deicing to Fleet and SRPs in overhaul. Even today when Overspeed cites 'mechanics" per aircraft he uses the whole title group, which includes many workers at much less than full AMT rates, not AMT or A&Ps per aircraft.  Figure around 3 of the "mechanics per aircraft " he cites are people making much less than full AMT rates. Line maintenance wise we are about the same as other legacy carriers as far as the ratio, but at much, much lower rates of total compensation, in total compensation we are even lower than USAIR. 
 
This is the legacy that Overspeed supported and wishes for us to continue and it has nothing to do with saving jobs, it has to do with giving AA management whatever they want. In the past they wanted industry leading outsourcing, they got that, now that other carriers have won the ability to outsource which eliminated that advantage and leveled the playing field between carriers they want the lowest compensation, by far, in the industry, Overspeed supports that. One thing that is pretty consistent about Overspeed is that if it means putting more of our money in the companys pocket he finds a way to support it. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
Item one, the TWU removed you and Bob from office.

Yes, but the members removed you and the people who removed us have all been removed.  

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

You are correct, when the TWU agreed to B-scale they already had the most permissive language in the industry as far as outsourcing via the CR Smith Letter. The deal was less layoffs in return for more outsourcing, protect current workers even if it means a shrinking overall headcount through attrition. Then when other carriers agreed to B Scale the TWU went from a 9 year progression to a 12 year progressions plus an addition 4 years if hired with no experience. Finally the market caught up and AA was unable to attract or retain mechanics with the 12 year progression  so they lowered it down to where everyone else was to a five year progression. Remember that prior to 1983 the industry standard , including AA was two years to top. So we can fairly be cited for increasing the progression by more than 150%. All along the way the TWU introduced "in house outsourcing of A&P work" through the transfer of R&D to Fleet, Deicing to Fleet and SRPs in overhaul. Even today when Overspeed cites 'mechanics" per aircraft he uses the whole title group, which includes many workers at much less than full AMT rates, not AMT or A&Ps per aircraft.  Figure around 3 of the "mechanics per aircraft " he cites are people making much less than full AMT rates. Line maintenance wise we are about the same as other legacy carriers as far as the ratio, but at much, much lower rates of total compensation, in total compensation we are even lower than USAIR. 
 
This is the legacy that Overspeed supported and wishes for us to continue and it has nothing to do with saving jobs, it has to do with giving AA management whatever they want. In the past they wanted industry leading outsourcing, they got that, now that other carriers have won the ability to outsource which eliminated that advantage and leveled the playing field between carriers they want the lowest compensation, by far, in the industry, Overspeed supports that. One thing that is pretty consistent about Overspeed is that if it means putting more of our money in the companys pocket he finds a way to support it. 

 
Bob
 
The high lighted comment if I am not mistaken was in reference to the 1991 contract.
I was not here then, but thats when the TWU made it 6yrs to be vested in the retirement plan. When Federal law changed it from 10yrs to 5yrs, Jan 1st 1989. Just another screwing by the TWU. The TWU knows the company hires only after many yrs go by this way the TWU mindset is to screw the new guys. Same with the 5 & 5 in the 1995 contract. It gave the senior guys something but the rest of the membership got stuck with a 1% pay increase over 6yrs, am I correct?
 
I remember that the all in when I hired in for top seniority guys was $27 and change.
 
At Eastern I was over $20.00 before we went on strike 1989, so in just under 9yrs the TWU got what per yr in pay raises less than a dollar but helped the company get lower paid startup employees and shed older guys, and another yr not to put TWU members into the retirement plan, and forced others to stay another yr if they wanted to get to a certain yr when they retired. Some where in the last 18yrs as well we have to go to 17yrs company time to get the forth week of vacation as well.
 
"Way to go TWU", bargain our contract backwards.  Since I have been here its been nothing but a trick F%$& by the TWU. NO snap back clause and we also have lost sooo
much that the unions of the past fought for. 
 
AMFA at AA in 2014

 

[AANYER]

The TWU blows,
 
I just found out from a ten year admin assistant that they got back the following:
 
 
Four weeks of vacation after 10 years, (This is a damn slap the face for hard working AMTs that keep the birds in the sky) It took me 20 yrs to achieve this.
Full pay for each sick day,
10 holidays (8 & 2 floating)
 
The F'ing TWU blows,
Overspeed blows
Realityck blows
All of these C%$K suckers blows
 
I can't stand these TWU sons of biaaaaaatches.  The AMT desecration squarely lies on the shoulders of The TWU and their hence men.  They are Liars, cheats and dogs.  All can see now that they have not squared with us as it relates to the equity and many other things.  They are even bringing down the AMT's in the rest of the industry.

 

[Rogallo]

Agreed.  Now, do we have the balls to finally do anything about it?
 
I sure hope we do!