April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[cactusboy53]

Quite correct, and I believe Judge Silver realizes this as well. In this life you don't get something for nothing!

[font="Times New Roman""]You said it my friend......“Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.”[/font]
[font="Times New Roman""] [/font]
[font="Times New Roman""]Judge Roslyn O. Silver, Chief United States District Judge[/font]

[font="Times New Roman""]No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS ORDER; October 11, 2012[/font]

 

[cactusboy53]

And why did all this happen? The NIC is a windfall IN MY OPINION, which is totally against the merger policy ALSO IN MY OPINION. PERIOD!

breeze

When I espouse my opinion (vs. fact), I usually add the above phase. I fixed it for you. No charge.

 

[mrbreeze]

When I espouse my opinion (vs. fact), I usually add the above phase. I fixed it for you. No charge.

You guys have been trying to "fix" it for us for a long time....bottom line is you can't change the truth by rewording and spinning what is said and done.
breeze

 

[cactusboy53]

You guys have been trying to "fix" it for us for a long time....bottom line is you can't change the truth by rewording and spinning what is said and done.
breeze

I'm pretty sure that we aren't the ones changing the truth or rewording. Here are some valuable words from US Air pilots Cardoza, Cleary & Mowrey:

[font="Times New Roman""]“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”[/font]
[font="Times New Roman""]US Airwaves June/July 2000[/font]
[font="Times New Roman""]US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)[/font]

 

[mrbreeze]

I'm pretty sure that we aren't the ones changing the truth or rewording. Here are some valuable words from US Air pilots Cardoza, Cleary & Mowrey:

[font=Times New Roman"]“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”[/font]
[font=Times New Roman"]US Airwaves June/July 2000[/font]
[font=Times New Roman"]US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)[/font]

Who is this ALPA organization? I am represented by USAPA, not some org. that Silver has no desire in revisiting. This old stuff doesn't hold water and Silver recognizes that fact.

Nice try tho.....
breeze

 

[cactusboy53]

Who is this ALPA organization? I am represented by USAPA, not some org. that Silver has no desire in revisiting. This old stuff doesn't hold water and Silver recognizes that fact.

Nice try tho.....
breeze

And again we are back to....[font=Times New Roman"]“Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.”[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Judge Roslyn O. Silver, Chief United States District Judge[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS ORDER; October 11, 2012[/font]

 

[mrbreeze]

And again we are back to....[font=Times New Roman"]“Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground.”[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]Judge Roslyn O. Silver, Chief United States District Judge[/font]

[font=Times New Roman"]No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS ORDER; October 11, 2012[/font]

Yep....round and round it goes until Silver calls for a stop to it, ordering both parties to try and settle the issue through negotiations. It does no good to rehash and try to lay blame. Silver knows all of this and has no interest in going backwards.

Now, if you can give us something relevant moving forward, it can help move us out of this stand off and benefit the whole pilot group. You are a USAPA rep.... your job is to look out for the good of the whole pilot group.....so do the right thing. I mean....hell, that's what you expect for the rest of the reps to do, right?
breeze

 

[snapthis]

Yep....round and round it goes until Silver calls for a stop to it, ordering both parties to try and settle the issue through negotiations. It does no good to rehash and try to lay blame. Silver knows all of this and has no interest in going backwards.

Now, if you can give us something relevant moving forward, it can help move us out of this stand off and benefit the whole pilot group. You are a USAPA rep.... your job is to look out for the good of the whole pilot group.....so do the right thing. I mean....hell, that's what you expect for the rest of the reps to do, right?
breeze

That sounds reasonable, Breeze. What are you suggesting he propose to the pilots he represents? Do you have any new ideas?

 

[traderjake]

Interesting how such anger prevents logical thinking.

Say the guy who prefers LOA93 to a better contract.

 

[cleardirect]

Should have gone for the fence! Greed always gets the best of us!

You stole a fence. That is not good enough for you. Unless you are now saying that usapa is willing to use the Nicolau since you got the fence you wanted.

 

[cleardirect]

And why did all this happen? The NIC is a windfall, which is totally against the merger policy. PERIOD!

breeze

Windfall in your opinion. Show me documentation from someone in authority it is a windfall.

ALPA said it was not. The arbitrator said it was not. No court has ever said it was.

Your opinion means nothing. So that in no way justifies you easties poisoning the well.

 

[cleardirect]

Yep....round and round it goes until Silver calls for a stop to it, ordering both parties to try and settle the issue through negotiations. It does no good to rehash and try to lay blame. Silver knows all of this and has no interest in going backwards.

Now, if you can give us something relevant moving forward, it can help move us out of this stand off and benefit the whole pilot group. You are a USAPA rep.... your job is to look out for the good of the whole pilot group.....so do the right thing. I mean....hell, that's what you expect for the rest of the reps to do, right?
breeze

Yes the west pilot have offered something. Injunction. Another arbitration to let yet another arbitrator decide between an arbitrated list or a made up list. Usapa rejected that.

What did usapa suggest? You west guys shut up usapa will treat you in what they think is fair while trying to integrate with American

What usapa really said was that they would throw the west under the bus in order to get a better deal for the east compared to American.

Why so scared of the fair process? Why not allow the west at the table for M/B? Afraid the arbitrators will agree with the west, again.

 

[mrbreeze]

That sounds reasonable, Breeze. What are you suggesting he propose to the pilots he represents? Do you have any new ideas?

I have always thought something in the middle was the answer......however, any ideas that I might throw out there will be totally rejected by the West pilots.....just like the current discussions today.

Dave is your rep and is the only one that the West pilots would be receptive to. I would applaud any new ideas, East or West that will give us a break through. It's gonna be a tough sell whether the rep is East or West. However, having him sit back and keep pointing blame at the East pilot group, basically still standing by "NIC or nothing" is not productive.

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

Yes the west pilot have offered something. Injunction. Another arbitration to let yet another arbitrator decide between an arbitrated list or a made up list. Usapa rejected that.

What did usapa suggest? You west guys shut up usapa will treat you in what they think is fair while trying to integrate with American

What usapa really said was that they would throw the west under the bus in order to get a better deal for the east compared to American.

Why so scared of the fair process? Why not allow the west at the table for M/B? Afraid the arbitrators will agree with the west, again.

Re-read your post......it wreaks of paranoia.

I think USAPA rejected the arbitration offers because of the time involved and that it should be an internal formula that gets us through all this.

The old "Once bit and twice shy" comes into effect after the NIC abomination.
breeze

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

......... it should be an internal formula that gets us through all this.

The old "Once bit and twice shy" comes into effect after the NIC abomination.
breeze

An 'internal formula.' That sounds good, on the surface, but look at it this way. Internal, at this point means, without a doubt, the east having the upper hand. It is by design, based into the formula. There are a few people on the east that I would consider worthy of dealing with, but rest assured, they would not be allowed anywhere near this 'internal formula.' Talk about once bitten and twice shy.....