April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

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cactusboy53 said:
I'm pretty sure that we aren't the ones changing the truth or rewording. Here are some valuable words from US Air pilots Cardoza, Cleary & Mowrey:

[font=Times New Roman"]“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”[/font]
[font=Times New Roman"]US Airwaves June/July 2000[/font]
[font=Times New Roman"]US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)[/font]
Click to expand...
What is the point of this quote? (P.S. I asked you this last time you posted this quote.)

Nobody is asking the court to set aside the Nic. Nooooo boddddyy. It has been set aside already... The fundamental premise of every West law suit is that the company and USAPA have already set aside the Nic....

Somebody has been begging USAPA to use the Nic. They have been begging the company to use they Nic. They have been threatening anyone and everyone they will sue and get the courts to force its implementation and grant obscene monetary penalties.... for years with no success. Not even Wake would force its implementation. The 9th did not force its implementation and SIlver has said over and over again.... USAPA does not have to use the Nic.

I am reluctant to declare a trend is established, but I have to admit I am starting to see some consistent denominators to this whole equation.
 
Judge Silver

East pilots have been trying to work this out with the west since ALPA. USAPA took over as the union and nothing has changed. west pilots are still at the nic or nothing.

"MEC Chairman’s Message
February 8, 2008

This is MEC Chairman Jack Stephan with a chairman’s message to the pilots for Friday, February 08, 2008.

After nine days of talks between the US Airways and America West Steering Committees, the America West contingent has chosen to stand down talks. At this time they are not prepared to address seniority implementation issues, specifically, mitigating the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.

Recall that we met to determine if we had enough common ground between us on important issues to come up with a comprehensive counterproposal for both MECs to review. As we told you, this counterproposal would have to adequately address not only all open JNC issues, but more importantly for the AAA pilots, pay parity and seniority protection. We came to the neutral site at Wye River, MD with these goals in mind, and within these goals we developed certain thresholds needing to be achieved for the benefit of the US Airways pilots. Despite what you may have heard or read, none of that changed during the meeting.

While we respect what the AWA pilots were there to accomplish, the US Airways MEC’s position remains the same and our MEC’s Steering Committee members did not compromise that position. We never wavered from our goal of protecting you from the Nicolau Award, and our threshold for meeting those goals never changed.

I’ll be calling the MEC into session for a special meeting next week. While there is no comprehensive counterproposal to bring back to the MEC, they'll receive a briefing on the process, and I plan to add two other items to the agenda: developing a distribution methodology for 2007 Profit Sharing and Stock Options and to review an agreement extending the timeframe for filing disputes concerning flow-through issues.

The MEC will now review our options. Keep in mind that the odds of any plan we develop succeeding are greatly diminished by members of this MEC continuing to cower behind their fear of failure and seeking to sabotage any process we elect to pursue. You can see that all of the noise and accusations coming out of PHL Council 41 about the work of our Steering Committee was unfounded and disingenuous. When it came time to meet directly with our AWA counterparts, we did exactly what we said we would, AAA pilots working with AWA pilots trying to mitigate the damages of the Nicolau Award.

Excuses and alibis will not replace leadership. We made a promise, and we kept it. There was no cramdown, no end-run deal, no deal chasing and no back room conspiracies. I hope you did not fall for these contrived ideas spread in order to try and scare you. The majority of this MEC and your MEC officers are not afraid of failure. We said we were going to look under every stone to find solutions and we meant it. My only fear is that some of our MEC fear the search may actually produce something that would require
them to lead rather than criticize. I can tell you that the majority of your MEC was willing to continue the search. Although this process has not worked so far, we are no worse off for engaging in the exercise.

You would have been extremely proud of our team of pilots who met at the Wye River Conference Center. These are men of honor and integrity and they are most importantly, men of their word. Their commitment to the process and to you was rock solid. Threats and intimidation attempts by some minority disenchanted MEC members and paper tigers did not sway these men of honor from pursuing the direction that the majority of the MEC had set. They did their best trying to reach a solution to the Nicolau Award. At this time the AWA pilots are unwilling to address our seniority concerns. Again, we are no worse off for having engaged in this process. We remain right where we started and that is in separate operations with the West.

I thank you for your patience during the past few weeks. I know it’s been difficult. There will be other options at our disposal after the MEC gets the chance to strategize internally next week. While conditions and opportunities may change, the goal has not and our threshold for success has not. Our mission remains the same, to protect you from the damages caused by the Nicolau Award.

Thank you for listening. As always, fly safe and continue to look out for each other."
 
Phoenix said:
What is the point of this quote? (P.S. I asked you this last time you posted this quote.)

Nobody is asking the court to set aside the Nic. Nooooo boddddyy. It has been set aside already... The fundamental premise of every West law suit is that the company and USAPA have already set aside the Nic....

Somebody has been begging USAPA to use the Nic. They have been begging the company to use they Nic. They have been threatening anyone and everyone they will sue and get the courts to force its implementation and grant obscene monetary penalties.... for years with no success. Not even Wake would force its implementation. The 9th did not force its implementation and SIlver has said over and over again.... USAPA does not have to use the Nic.

I am reluctant to declare a trend is established, but I have to admit I am starting to see some consistent denominators to this whole equation.
Click to expand...


"Nic or Nothing" has only two finite outcomes.

The majority of US Airways pilots, their ensuing union, the Ninth, Judge Silver (twice,) and Kirby have already spoken. The most likely outcome is clear.

Even back stabbing Parker and Siegel have not said it’s the Nic. Same for the UCC, AMR, and even APA. They simply want a resolution so the merger can proceed without fanfare.

If Judge Silver strays, that is exactly what they will get, bad publicity and much more litagation. Judge Lane will be shaking his head, wondering exactly what Parker is thinking. Parker's 8 year history of not being able to merge will be front and center.

Greeter
 
August 2007

According to the August 27, 2007 AWA MEC Committee Update "The stock options arbitration that was scheduled for this week has been postponed (not cancelled.) It still remains the goal of the (AWA) MEC to obtain parity on the stock options paid to the East pilots by the most effective means possible."
 
cactusboy53 said:
I'm pretty sure that we aren't the ones changing the truth or rewording. Here are some valuable words from US Air pilots Cardoza, Cleary & Mowrey:

“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”
US Airwaves June/July 2000
US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)
Click to expand...

Dave, those words are damning to our cause when taken out of context, and without consideration of who said them. Two guys that spent years on FPL and had one meeting during a failed UAL merger.

The ALPA result was NOT set aside by the courts. The new union simply chose not to bargain with it, and the courts (so far, and with appropriate warnings) have not forced USAPA to use a failed bargaining position. So far.

I despise what Cleary and Mowrey did to our union. I hate the way they treated the West Class during office. Even without looking at the right or wrong in their actions, they did not help our case going forward.

All I could do is help vote them and their fellow flight pay loss whores OUT of office and turn the tide. They saw the writing on the wall and bailed early, but we also took care of a lot of their dead wood, Parrella in particular. Mission accomplished. You have to admit things changed with Hummel.

Greeter
 
Metroyet said:
Check out your W2 for the last 5 tax years. Need any more proof of USAPA causing you problems?
Click to expand...

"West MEC update dated July 23, 2007, West MEC
Chairman John McIlvenna described the Kirby proposal as "woefully inadequate." Furthermore, in a draft
letter from John McIlvenna to East MEC Chairman Jack Stephan dated February 22, 2008, the West MEC
Chairman explained that "the May 2007 Kirby proposal ... was deemed unacceptable by both pilot groups."
Now let's look at what the individual Addington plaintiffs (Leonidas members) said with respect to the Kirby
proposal:
Steve Wargocki testified* that he would "probably not" vote for a contract that incorporated the Kirby
proposal;
Mark Burman testified* that the Kirby proposal "seemed to fall short of what expectations were
moving forward with the new contract."
Afshin Iranpour testified* that "from his point of view ... [the pilots] could probably ask for more than
just [the] 3 percent raise" contained in the Kirby proposal;
Roger Velez (current PHX Domicile Representative) responded* with an emphatic "no" when asked
if he would vote for a single CBA which incorporated the Kirby proposal as its economic package;
John Bostic, testified* that he "wouldn't be satisfied" with the Kirby proposal and he "would like
[something] better."
(*Comments come directly from court transcripts and sworn depositions)"

west pilots myths.

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/USAPAsUrbanMythsLetterNov2010.pdf
 
mrbreeze said:
I have always thought something in the middle was the answer......however, any ideas that I might throw out there will be totally rejected by the West pilots.....just like the current discussions today.

Dave is your rep and is the only one that the West pilots would be receptive to. I would applaud any new ideas, East or West that will give us a break through. It's gonna be a tough sell whether the rep is East or West. However, having him sit back and keep pointing blame at the East pilot group, basically still standing by "NIC or nothing" is not productive.

breeze
Click to expand...
lynyrdskynyrd said:
An 'internal formula.' That sounds good, on the surface, but look at it this way. Internal, at this point means, without a doubt, the east having the upper hand. It is by design, based into the formula. There are a few people on the east that I would consider worthy of dealing with, but rest assured, they would not be allowed anywhere near this 'internal formula.' Talk about once bitten and twice shy.....
Click to expand...

I share your desire for a solution, Breeze but my thoughts parallel, LS's quote above.
 
mrbreeze said:
I have always thought something in the middle was the answer......however, any ideas that I might throw out there will be totally rejected by the West pilots.....just like the current discussions today.

Dave is your rep and is the only one that the West pilots would be receptive to. I would applaud any new ideas, East or West that will give us a break through. It's gonna be a tough sell whether the rep is East or West. However, having him sit back and keep pointing blame at the East pilot group, basically still standing by "NIC or nothing" is not productive.

breeze
Click to expand...
Once again. The Nicolau was the compromise.

The only solution you easties have ever has is DOH/LOS. Does not matter it was ALPA or usapa, same answer every time. So don't pretend you are now looking for compromise. You eastie think the only compromise is for the west to give you something.

It is the east pilots to blame for all of this.

What have the east pilots ever said other than DOH? Look in the mirror.
 
mrbreeze said:
Re-read your post......it wreaks of paranoia.

I think USAPA rejected the arbitration offers because of the time involved and that it should be an internal formula that gets us through all this.

The old "Once bit and twice shy" comes into effect after the NIC abomination.
breeze
Click to expand...
What time? It is a simple question. The arbitrator picks one or the other. No need to develop strategy. Present the options.

So you and usapa don't want to go to binding arbitration because you are "once bitten twice shy". But in usapa land you want to replace an arbitration where both the east and west were on equal footing, each side had our committee and lawyer. But you don't like that. Instead you want to throw that arbitration out and replace it with M/B where the is west locked out by usapa. We have to "trust" that usapa will treat the west fair. Sure because your record is so good for the last 6 years. Right. No thanks.

You don't like the equal part and want to stack the deck against the west. How is that fair?
 
cleardirect said:
What time? It is a simple question. The arbitrator picks one or the other. No need to develop strategy. Present the options.

So you and usapa don't want to go to binding arbitration because you are "once bitten twice shy". But in usapa land you want to replace an arbitration where both the east and west were on equal footing, each side had our committee and lawyer. But you don't like that. Instead you want to throw that arbitration out and replace it with M/B where the is west locked out by usapa. We have to "trust" that usapa will treat the west fair. Sure because your record is so good for the last 6 years. Right. No thanks.

You don't like the equal part and want to stack the deck against the west. How is that fair?
Click to expand...
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
US Airways, Inc.,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Don Addington, et al.,
Defendants.
))))))))))
No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS
AMENDED JUDGMENT
(to add description of class)

Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

DATED this 4th day of December, 2012.
 
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